income tax...an open discussion

[KAG]

I'm starting to become more aware of how the GOV is spending (wasting) my tax dollars and just how much tax we as Canadians pay. It’s really starting to become an issue for me, and like to hear how some work the system to minimize the tax’s you pay.

Now I recently read a book I think everyone on hear should read – 15 things the tax man does not want you to know. To be blunt it really opened my eyes.

On the first few pages it talks about stats about government spending and our salaries. The one that really got me was from the 70’s till today the average salary corrected for inflation has been relatively flat, while taxes have gone up 1700%!!!
The cost of food, shelter and transportation have also gone up 400-500% each.

CRA now have thousands of employees with an annual budget of over 2 Billion dollars with the mentality of squeezing every dollar they feel you owe the government. The tax laws started with just a few pages now number over 2000.

My question is for a tax that was supposed to be short term to pay off the war (not sure which), why are we still paying it? How has it gotten to this?
I’m all for paying my fair share but at the height of my pay scale I stand to pay about $90,000 in taxes/year, and I can’t help but thinking why? I don’t use up more “infrastructure” then someone in a lower tax bracket, I don’t drive more, go to doctor more, I certainly don’t leach off the social system, so why am I paying more?
The short answer is because I make more, and can afford to pay more. But why not pay the same ratio – flat tax.

The book also mentioned that if the gov were to operate more like the private sector fiscally, they could shave off 25% of everyone’s taxes. 25%!!!! That’s a huge amount. We’ve all watched the news concerning how this politician defrauded the tax payers millions, and maybe there’s an inquiry, maybe not. Maybe someone gets punished, probably not. Then it happens again, and again with no change, no punishment, certainly no refund to the tax payers for the wasting our hard earned money.
But god help you if you’re late paying owed moneys to CRA, because interest is accumulating daily. Not to mention the penalties you may get for making a mistake on filling your taxes, those can be in the thousands.

So the next time you see government employees enjoying a high end buffet and a swanky retreat or hotel, just remember you helped pay for that.

Discuss.

[Rockie]

You said the magic words, you pay more because you can afford to pay more. I pay more tax than some of my friends make gross per year, and I don't mind paying more since a flat tax would dramatically penalize their already reduced disposable income. The tax was supposed to be a temperary measure to pay for the war effort in WWI but as you say it never seemed to go away. For that I blame....us. You see, we as a society demand our government services. We currently demand as we have in the past much more government spending than we actually pay in taxes. Hence the deficit, hence the debt, which we are still paying off from our last round of societal greed and shortsightedness.

The government waste I also blame on us because we tolerate it.

[KAG]

http://www.prolognet.qc.ca/clyde/tax.htm

A very intersting read.

Rockie, I'm all for paying more because I can, but I'm not agreeing to fund some of this BS we see day in and day out. I'm looking at paying 50% of what I make, not including the taxes on everything I connsume, and I'm starting to think maybe it's time for Canadians as a group to say enough.

[iflyforpie]

On the first few pages it talks about stats about government spending and our salaries. The one that really got me was from the 70’s till today the average salary corrected for inflation has been relatively flat, while taxes have gone up 1700%!!!
The cost of food, shelter and transportation have also gone up 400-500% each.

I pay more tax than some of my friends make gross per year, and I don't mind paying more since a flat tax would dramatically penalize their already reduced disposable income.

A flat 25% tax would severely penalize me. Typically if you are in the upper brackets, you have more options to shelter your income from taxes (RRSPs, businesses, donations, further education, etc). This is what I do to keep my taxable income in the lower bracket, even though I make a fraction of what you guys make.


I do agree that there needs to be more government accountability for where the funds go and there needs to be justification for our taxes.

[KAG]

http://www.canada.com/topics/news/polit ... a63&k=6820

[Just another canuck]

Live in Canada... just don't work in Canada. Or, contract yourself out if you can under the name of a small business... I know a couple guys who do this in the 704 world and it really helps them out come tax season.

[rotorhead350]

That is the number one reason why I left the country, now i don't pay tax at all. Feels great!!!!

[Topspin]

My question is for a tax that was supposed to be short term to pay off the war (not sure which), why are we still paying it? How has it gotten to this?

A combination of greed and laziness. I live in BC and this also brings us Translink, ICBC, MSP, etc.....

I’m all for paying my fair share but at the height of my pay scale I stand to pay about $90,000 in taxes/year, and I can’t help but thinking why? I don’t use up more “infrastructure” then someone in a lower tax bracket, I don’t drive more, go to doctor more, I certainly don’t leach off the social system, so why am I paying more?

You're paying more so that your cousin Jane who works at H&R block for 35K can have a hospital when she get's in a car accident and breaks her arm. And then when her husband leaves her she can recieve benefits to support her kids.
Without payment from the top, the system collapses. The users can't be the payers.

The book also mentioned that if the gov were to operate more like the private sector fiscally, they could shave off 25% of everyone’s taxes. 25%!!!! That’s a huge amount. We’ve all watched the news concerning how this politician defrauded the tax payers millions, and maybe there’s an inquiry, maybe not. Maybe someone gets punished, probably not. Then it happens again, and again with no change, no punishment, certainly no refund to the tax payers for the wasting our hard earned money.

It never ceases to amaze me how uninvolved Canadians are in this. Repeatedly we're up in arms shouting, and then it dies down to a whisper, then disappears. Complain, but don't take action, the Canadian way.

It's the little things that really get to me. P.S.T., enough said. Or CPP which may or may not be healthy, may or may not be corrected for inflation and exponential pop. growth, but without doubt took a massive hit since being allowed to invest in publicly traded securities. Why, can we not opt out if we agree to invest an equal amount in RRSP? The rate of return is far greater.....

An argument could be made that a middle class earner in Canada stands to invest far more money in the government than so-called communist China.

I'm not the most educated in financial matters, but on the surface it appears that the government could be labeled a Ponzi scheme.

But god help you if you’re late paying owed moneys to CRA, because interest is accumulating daily. Not to mention the penalties you may get for making a mistake on filling your taxes, those can be in the thousands.

Here's a story for you. I'm in my mid-twenties, a few years ago I didn't bother filing a tax return for three years ago. Was going to school, made basically no money + tuition write offs.
I ended up owing something on the order of $500 in year one, they owed me circa $800 for year two, and $1200 for year two. Between the massive late filing penalties, and interested compounded against me I ended up owing around $900. The CRA is far worse than the supposed malicious credit card companies.

[iflyforpie]

A combination of greed and laziness. I live in BC and this also brings us Translink, ICBC, MSP, etc.....

You forgot the carbon tax...

[Widow]

Mary Croft: HOW I CLOBBERED EVERY BUREAUCRATIC CASH-CONFISCATORY AGENCY KNOWN TO MAN

Freemen must love this gal.

[W0X0F]

On the bright side, just be thankful you don't get all the government you pay for.

[Rowdy]

Any good reads on tax law interpretation? Maybe ways I can better go about avoiding paying through the nose in income tax? Like deductions or bursaries etc etc that I'm unaware of? Or perhaps putting me in touch with a solid accountant who knows the ins and outs?

[Rotten Apple #1]

I'm not sure if this Ontario optometrist is a Freeman, but he does question the applicability of the Income Tax Act in this case here.

His acquittal on the charge of tax evasion was quashed and a new trial ordered. Actually an interesting read.

[niss]

You're paying more so that your cousin Jane who works at H&R block for 35K can have a hospital when she get's in a car accident and breaks her arm. And then when her husband leaves her she can recieve benefits to support her kids.
Without payment from the top, the system collapses. The users can't be the payers.

Thanks for the sweet metalwork guys!

[KAG]

Jonny, I just skimmed that and I gather he didn't pay ANY tax. My argument is federal income tax is illegal, and from the link I post above it proves this. Maybe I'll get a copy of the BNA and the supreme court ruling in the 50's and give it a try

[Rotten Apple #1]

Check that KAG. This next case I just posted under Freeman's thread, but it applies here. This guy perhaps argued closer to what you're saying, I think.

link

[6] This application raises the issue whether the position taken by the applicant in his Constructive Notice to the Minister of National Revenue, dated October 5, 1999, is correct. Is the payment of income tax a voluntary act? Is a natural person a person included in the Income Tax Act who is subject to the income tax?

[KAG]

http://www.freedomparty.org/backup/consent/cons24_4.htm

Also A very intersting read. gives one pause to think about ones taxes, and if CRA was ever giving you grief and demanding payment, one could fight them. Sounds like from the hour I've spent googling and reading about people who have and do just that.
I do think though we need to be taxed and I have no problem paying more because I can. I do believe though were taxed too high.

[roger.roger]

Any good reads on tax law interpretation? Maybe ways I can better go about avoiding paying through the nose in income tax? Like deductions or bursaries etc etc that I'm unaware of? Or perhaps putting me in touch with a solid accountant who knows the ins and outs?

for someone who makes $30 000/year half of which is not taxed. and you won't be getting the other seat for another 2 years there is little need for you to stress over your $15 000 taxable income.

A tip might be to come home through zurich or genieva and leave your U.S. money in an accout

[Cat Driver]

A tip might be to come home through zurich or genieva and leave your U.S. money in an account.

Don't forget you can bring home under ten thousand Canadian in cash and there is no need to declare it at customs/ immigration.

[N181CS]

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/const/c186 ... stribution



VI. DISTRIBUTION OF LEGISLATIVE POWERS




POWERS OF THE PARLIAMENT
Legislative Authority of Parliament of Canada 91. It shall be lawful for the Queen, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate and House of Commons, to make Laws for the Peace, Order, and good Government of Canada, in relation to all Matters not coming within the Classes of Subjects by this Act assigned exclusively to the Legislatures of the Provinces; and for greater Certainty, but not so as to restrict the Generality of the foregoing Terms of this Section, it is hereby declared that (notwithstanding anything in this Act) the exclusive Legislative Authority of the Parliament of Canada extends to all Matters coming within the Classes of Subjects next hereinafter enumerated; that is to say,

1. Repealed. (44)
1A. The Public Debt and Property. (45)
2. The Regulation of Trade and Commerce.
2A. Unemployment insurance. (46)
3. The raising of Money by any Mode or System of Taxation.
4. The borrowing of Money on the Public Credit.
5. Postal Service.
6. The Census and Statistics.
7. Militia, Military and Naval Service, and Defence.
8. The fixing of and providing for the Salaries and Allowances of Civil and other Officers of the Government of Canada.
9. Beacons, Buoys, Lighthouses, and Sable Island.
10. Navigation and Shipping.
11. Quarantine and the Establishment and Maintenance of Marine Hospitals.
12. Sea Coast and Inland Fisheries.
13. Ferries between a Province and any British or Foreign Country or between Two Provinces.
14. Currency and Coinage.
15. Banking, Incorporation of Banks, and the Issue of Paper Money.
16. Savings Banks.
17. Weights and Measures.
18. Bills of Exchange and Promissory Notes.
19. Interest.
20. Legal Tender.
21. Bankruptcy and Insolvency.
22. Patents of Invention and Discovery.
23. Copyrights.
24. Indians, and Lands reserved for the Indians.
25. Naturalization and Aliens.
26. Marriage and Divorce.
27. The Criminal Law, except the Constitution of Courts of Criminal Jurisdiction, but including the Procedure in Criminal Matters.
28. The Establishment, Maintenance, and Management of Penitentiaries.
29. Such Classes of Subjects as are expressly excepted in the Enumeration of the Classes of Subjects by this Act assigned exclusively to the Legislatures of the Provinces.

And any Matter coming within any of the Classes of Subjects enumerated in this Section shall not be deemed to come within the Class of Matters of a local or private Nature comprised in the Enumeration of the Classes of Subjects by this Act assigned exclusively to the Legislatures of the Provinces. (47)





EXCLUSIVE POWERS OF PROVINCIAL LEGISLATURES
Subjects of exclusive Provincial Legislation 92. In each Province the Legislature may exclusively make Laws in relation to Matters coming within the Classes of Subjects next hereinafter enumerated; that is to say,

1. Repealed. (48)
2. Direct Taxation within the Province in order to the raising of a Revenue for Provincial Purposes.
3. The borrowing of Money on the sole Credit of the Province
4. The Establishment and Tenure of Provincial Offices and the Appointment and Payment of Provincial Officers.
5. The Management and Sale of the Public Lands belonging to the Province and of the Timber and Wood thereon.
6. The Establishment, Maintenance, and Management of Public and Reformatory Prisons in and for the Province.
7. The Establishment, Maintenance, and Management of Hospitals, Asylums, Charities, and Eleemosynary Institutions in and for the Province, other than Marine Hospitals.
8. Municipal Institutions in the Province.
9. Shop, Saloon, Tavern, Auctioneer, and other Licences in order to the raising of a Revenue for Provincial, Local, or Municipal Purposes.
10. Local Works and Undertakings other than such as are of the following Classes:

(a) Lines of Steam or other Ships, Railways, Canals, Telegraphs, and other Works and Undertakings connecting the Province with any other or others of the Provinces, or extending beyond the Limits of the Province:
(b) Lines of Steam Ships between the Province and any British or Foreign Country:
(c) Such Works as, although wholly situate within the Province, are before or after their Execution declared by the Parliament of Canada to be for the general Advantage of Canada or for the Advantage of Two or more of the Provinces.

11. The Incorporation of Companies with Provincial Objects.
12. The Solemnization of Marriage in the Province.
13. Property and Civil Rights in the Province.
14. The Administration of Justice in the Province, including the Constitution, Maintenance, and Organization of Provincial Courts, both of Civil and of Criminal Jurisdiction, and including Procedure in Civil Matters in those Courts.
15. The Imposition of Punishment by Fine, Penalty, or Imprisonment for enforcing any Law of the Province made in relation to any Matter coming within any of the Classes of Subjects enumerated in this Section.
16. Generally all Matters of a merely local or private Nature in the Province.

[Dash-Ate]

We have to pay harper's 50 B defecit!! Let's see... $50 billion divided by 33 million people is....

Who need Madoff stealing 50B when Harper will do it for us.

[Dash-Ate]

Time for a regime change!! Whoops, who's behind Door #2, why it's another limp wristed lefty LOL.
Those are our only 2 choices. Freedom, eh?

And then they blew $300 million on an election...why not show US the money.

[Expat]

My recommendation: work overseas!
And then even better, retire overseas. Who needs to retire in Canada, and live like a beggar, with $3000 a month pension?
In many countries, with $500 a month, you will live like a pasha.
And no need to buy a snow blower!!

[rotorhead350]

My recommendation: work overseas!
And then even better, retire overseas. Who needs to retire in Canada, and live like a beggar, with $3000 a month pension?
In many countries, with $500 a month, you will live like a pasha.
And no need to buy a snow blower!!

+1

[Icebound]

Ah, like clockwork. this tax-is-illegal thread re-surfaces somewhere.

Taxing:
We are quite willing to let banks "tax" us, insurannce companies, pharmaceutical companies, fuel companies, our cable TV provider, even airlines in the name of "fuel surcharge"....

We accept all of those... often dubious.... charges.... But when we, ourselves (through our participatory democracy) need to set aside some of our money to provide services common to everybody in the nation, we balk..

I do not quite understand why we keep adopting this "government is them" versus "us" mentality.

In a democracy, government IS "us", and if we do not like it, we have the power to change it. Oh, yeah... we would rather whine... we teach our kids nothing about current events, then whine some more when the schools don't take up the slack.

We whine and opt out.... just like Freeman Menard, in spite of our bashing him in that other thread.

---

Accountability:
Whether we like it or not, government evolved because it became necessary. Our job is to keep it accountable and to keep it democratic.

On accountability: the fact that you read and know about a few million of government mis-spending... well before the entire country dissolves.... in itself shows that democratic government accountably more or less works... (so far).

WHEN did you know about ENRON's mis-spending, or Bernie Madoff's, or for that matter, when did Wall Street inform you about that icon of America, GM?


Oh, sure, there is some creeping Fascism working its way into OUR Canadian Government. But it is not too late to keep it at bay, if we put our mind to it. Maybe a little more participation that just ten minutes every 4 years at a federal ballot, would help.

---

Offshore:
And yeah... you can live like a pasha elsewhere else.
...if you are young and healthy.

I know one of those pashas without a snow blower.... wife diagnosed with something horrid... income disappeared... plus 100 grand expensies in the first 6 months, more to come with no end in sight.... have fun.

I get a kick out of the ridicule that "banana republics", or "European socialism", or "Authoritarian Regimes" receive; but then we hold them up as "the place to live"????

Give me a break.





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