Single Pilot IFR

[ywgflyboy]

The funny things about the CARs is that you know something exists, and have seen it before, but can NEVER FIND IT AGAIN!

Quick question regarding IFR. I am curerntly working towards my instrument rating. Upon completing that insstrument rating am I allowed to hop in a plane and fly in IMC conditions in a privately rented aircraft (aircraft being certified of course). What about with passengers?

I recall something about 1000 hours or 50 on type to carry passengers solo in IMC but was that not in the air operator section?

Sorry to ask because I know it is in there, I have just been spending hours browsing the CARs trying to relocate it.

[marktheone]

For commercial there are a set of minimums that are sometimes AOC specific. For private (years since I've done it) I'm pretty sure if you have an IFR rating and an IFR aircraft you can go with passengers. If you're just getting your IFR though you should think about logging some IFR time before you take pax.

Cheers,
M

[ahramin]

As Mark said, once you have the instrument rating, you are legally qualified to fly in IMC under IFR.

There are no rules regarding Single Pilot IFR in Part 6 of the CARs.

[flyinthebug]

Edit

[Thomas Magnum]

But does the 666 rule still apply for private flying?

[BTD]

DIVISION VII - PERSONNEL REQUIREMENTS
723.86 Minimum Crew

Single Pilot IFR Requirements

The standard for the operation of an aeroplane with passengers on board in IFR flight without a second-in-command is:

(1) the pilot shall have a minimum of 1000 hours of flight time which shall include, if the type to be flown is multi-engined, 100 hours on multi-engined aeroplanes. In addition, the pilot shall have 50 hours of simulated or actual flight in IMC, and a total of 50 hours flight time on the aeroplane type;

This only applies to commercial 703 operations.

The 666 applies to private as well.

401.05
(3) No holder of an instrument rating shall exercise the privileges referred to in Section 401.47 unless the holder has

(a) within the 12 months preceding the flight, successfully completed an instrument rating flight test in an aircraft or in a Level B, C or D simulator of the same group as the aircraft;

(b) within the six months preceding the flight, acquired six hours of instrument time and completed six instrument approaches to the minima specified in the Canada Air Pilot in an aircraft, in actual or simulated instrument meteorological conditions, or in a Level B, C or D simulator of the same category as the aircraft or in a flight training device under the supervision of a person who holds the qualifications referred to in subsection 425.21(9) of the personnel licensing standards;
(amended 2001/03/01; previous version)

(c) within the six months preceding the flight, acquired six hours of instrument time and completed six instrument approaches to the minima specified in the Canada Air Pilot in an aircraft, in actual or simulated instrument meteorological conditions, while acting as a flight instructor conducting training in respect of the endorsement of a flight crew licence or permit with an instrument rating; or
(amended 2001/03/01; previous version)

(d) successfully completed, for an aircraft, a pilot proficiency check whose validity period has not expired and which included the instrument procedures portion of
(amended 2001/03/01; no previous version)

[Thomas Magnum]

Hey thanks for posting that. Just wanna make sure I have the first part clear though...

So I have a group 1 IFR that I got in January 2009. It expires February 1st 2011. Let's say "hypotheticaly" I don't fly and file IFR until a flight in March 2010. Not only have I not been current with my 666, but I also have not had an IFR ride since my initial in January 09. What I'm getting at, it's not current because of 666, AND because I haven't done a ride within a year?

So to keep it current you'd have to do your 666 and do a ride every year even though my group 1 is valid for two years? This is strictly private flying and not commercial.

If I haven't been keeping up my 666, can I file IFR (on a vfr day of course) and shoot some approaches without passengers?

Thanks,

TM

[Spokes]

You must complete the 666. IFR flight test is only required every two years. If you are not current on your 666, you cannot file IFR. You can go up VFR with a safety pilot and do the approaches,time under a hood or some similar such device. This can be done in any type of aircraft- ie it need not be multi-engined. I think you may also be able to this requirement in a sim. (not 100% sure of that thought).

[BTD]

Hey thanks for posting that. Just wanna make sure I have the first part clear though...

So I have a group 1 IFR that I got in January 2009. It expires February 1st 2011. Let's say "hypotheticaly" I don't fly and file IFR until a flight in March 2010. Not only have I not been current with my 666, but I also have not had an IFR ride since my initial in January 09. What I'm getting at, it's not current because of 666, AND because I haven't done a ride within a year?

So to keep it current you'd have to do your 666 and do a ride every year even though my group 1 is valid for two years? This is strictly private flying and not commercial.

If I haven't been keeping up my 666, can I file IFR (on a vfr day of course) and shoot some approaches without passengers?

Thanks,

TM

What it means is that you must have done an IFR Ride within 12 months OR have done the 666. For the first 12 months after your ride the 666 doesn't apply. After that since you haven't done a ride within the 12 months, you must have done the 666 for real/simulated/or an approved FTD/SIM.

Editted to add:

When reading the CARS and looking at a list like I quoted above, after the ; at the end of each paragraph an AND or an OR is understood to be there. You must look at the 2nd last paragraph to see which it is. It is like writing out a list. IE: The American flag is red, white, AND blue.

Hope it helps.

[ahramin]

A ride is required every 2 years, not every year.

If it has been over a year since your last ride then you need your six and six in six.

You do not require an instrument rating to file IFR, just to operate IMC. If your instrument rating is not current, you can still file IFR in VMC. Approaches done in these conditions would not count towards your six and six in six though. Have to be actual or simulated conditions, and I don't see how you could safely simulate those conditions without a safety pilot.

Note that I am not saying it would be prudent to file IFR without a current instrument rating, just that it would be legal.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Note that I am not saying it would be prudent to file IFR without a current instrument rating, just that it would be legal.

Exactly. There is a big diferrence between prudent and legal. I would go so far as to say that most pilots are in fact incompetant to safely fly IFR on their own in actual IMC conditions (including a for real approach) if the only experience they have is the training for the rating. Find somebody with lots of for real IFR time (ie not just experience instructing IFR) and get them to ride with you untill you get some actual IFR line operating hours.

[Spokes]

A ride is required every 2 years, not every year.

If it has been over a year since your last ride then you need your six and six in six.

You do not require an instrument rating to file IFR, just to operate IMC. If your instrument rating is not current, you can still file IFR in VMC. Approaches done in these conditions would not count towards your six and six in six though. Have to be actual or simulated conditions, and I don't see how you could safely simulate those conditions without a safety pilot.

Note that I am not saying it would be prudent to file IFR without a current instrument rating, just that it would be legal.

No, I think it would not:

401.05(3) No holder of an instrument rating shall exercise the privileges referred to in Section 401.47 unless the holder has

(a) within the 12 months preceding the flight, successfully completed an instrument rating flight test in an aircraft or in a Level B, C or D simulator of the same group as the aircraft;

(b) within the six months preceding the flight, acquired six hours of instrument time and completed six instrument approaches to the minima specified in the Canada Air Pilot in an aircraft, in actual or simulated instrument meteorological conditions, or in a Level B, C or D simulator of the same category as the aircraft or in a flight training device under the supervision of a person who holds the qualifications referred to in subsection 425.21(9) of the personnel licensing standards;

And the priveledges referred to

401.47 The holder of a licence endorsed with an instrument rating may exercise

(a) the privileges of the licence under IFR in accordance with Part VI, Subpart 2, Division VII in respect of the group of aircraft endorsed on the licence; and

(b) the privileges accorded by a VFR OTT rating.

So without the 666 you may not exercise the priviledges of your IFR rating. Unless I am reading this wrong, there is something somewhere else more clear than this, I take it that I may not fly under instrument flying rules (IFR) unless I am 666 current- second year of course. To me this would include flying on an instrument flying rules flight plan.

Thoughts?

[Spokes]

Exactly. There is a big diferrence between prudent and legal. I would go so far as to say that most pilots are in fact incompetant to safely fly IFR on their own in actual IMC conditions (including a for real approach) if the only experience they have is the training for the rating. Find somebody with lots of for real IFR time (ie not just experience instructing IFR) and get them to ride with you untill you get some actual IFR line operating hours.

By passing the flight test, I would think you have shown your competancy to do the things you have described. A lack of experience may mean that you are more likely to get into trouble doing so. However I have read of many experienced pilots also getting flying into terrain, flying flying poor approaches and acting all around incompetantly.

Flying in an approach in IMC is not rocket science. I went right into Single pilot IFR after getting my rating without any real problems. I certainly am no superman, and had no trouble doing so. I don't see how others, with the right attitude, who pay attention to the things they have learned could do so as well. Hell, its simple proceedures, just folow them.

I am not trying to be-little your opinion, I just do not feel that someone needs hand holding because they learned IFR from a flight school.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Exactly. There is a big diferrence between prudent and legal. I would go so far as to say that most pilots are in fact incompetant to safely fly IFR on their own in actual IMC conditions (including a for real approach) if the only experience they have is the training for the rating. Find somebody with lots of for real IFR time (ie not just experience instructing IFR) and get them to ride with you untill you get some actual IFR line operating hours.

By passing the flight test, I would think you have shown your competancy to do the things you have described. A lack of experience may mean that you are more likely to get into trouble doing so. However I have read of many experienced pilots also getting flying into terrain, flying flying poor approaches and acting all around incompetantly.

Flying in an approach in IMC is not rocket science. I went right into Single pilot IFR after getting my rating without any real problems. I certainly am no superman, and had no trouble doing so. I don't see how others, with the right attitude, who pay attention to the things they have learned could do so as well. Hell, its simple proceedures, just folow them.

I am not trying to be-little your opinion, I just do not feel that someone needs hand holding because they learned IFR from a flight school.

I said most pilots, not all. That is because most pilots get their IFR training from an instructor who him/herself has just finished their own rating and have no actual IFR operating experience. Also there is no requirement to have actually flown in cloud to get an IFR rating and the training typically will visit the same 2 or 3 airports for every flight. So if IMO the "typical" pilot with a fresh IFR rating is only really safe to fly on his own to those airports on clear days. That is why on many earlier posts I have urged posters to seek out an instructor with some real IFR operating experience and do the rating in mid winter (West Coast in my case), and deliberately booking poor weather days for their lessons.

[roger.roger]

just my 2 cents but

single pilot IFR out of flight school is like rolling the dice............things look good till they look bad just hope you fill your bag with experiance before you run out of luck..................as a side note anyone who needs to run their plane IFR, better be able to hire a qualified staff to run their aircarft. Or they don't need to fly that bad.

[ahramin]

I knew someone would bite.

So without the 666 you may not exercise the priviledges of your IFR rating. Unless I am reading this wrong, there is something somewhere else more clear than this, I take it that I may not fly under instrument flying rules (IFR) unless I am 666 current- second year of course. To me this would include flying on an instrument flying rules flight plan.

I am not aware of any regulation which requires an instrument rating to file IFR. If you find one, please post it here.

[Aeros]

I knew someone would bite.

So without the 666 you may not exercise the priviledges of your IFR rating. Unless I am reading this wrong, there is something somewhere else more clear than this, I take it that I may not fly under instrument flying rules (IFR) unless I am 666 current- second year of course. To me this would include flying on an instrument flying rules flight plan.

I am not aware of any regulation which requires an instrument rating to file IFR. If you find one, please post it here.

CAR 401.47

The holder of a licence endorsed with an instrument rating may exercise

(a) the privileges of the licence under IFR in accordance with Part VI, Subpart 2, Division VII in respect of the group of aircraft endorsed on the licence; ...

Given that there is a Rating that, as part of its privileges, allows the holder to exercise their licence under IFR the legal position is that one must hold that rating to operate under IFR. Without the rating one cannot operate IFR.

Given that when you file a flight plan you are indicating that you intend to operate the aircraft in accordance with IFR you therefore require the rating to file IFR. (I guess if you want to be really picky, the offence wouldn't be the act of filing IFR without the rating. The offence would really only be committed once you accepted an IFR clearance and then operated the aircraft according to the Instrument Flight Rules in controlled airspace or simply operated in accordance with IFR in uncontrolled airspace without a valid instrument rating.)

CAR 401.05 requires that you satisfy the currency requirements before exercising the privileges of the Instrument Rating so even if the rating is "valid" but isn't "current" then you are essentially in the same boat.

[ahramin]

Some awful fuzzy thinking there Aeros.

Part (b) of 401.47 says that an instrument rating as part of it's privileges allows you to fly VFR OTT. Does this mean the legal position is that you need an instrument rating to fly VFR OTT?

[AuxBatOn]

No because it nowhere says it's exclusive to having an Instrument Rating. It only says that if you have an IFR Ticket, you can fly VFR OTT. It doesn't say you NEED an IR.

[Cat Driver]

Reading these arguments about flying is like watching a group of people picking fly shit out of pepper.

[ahramin]

Granted .. Understanding of particular rules like these adds nothing to safe or efficient flying ability. However I believe that those who wish to call themselves professionals in this industry should at least realize the limits of their understanding. If one is not able to pick the fly shit rules out of the pepper that is the CARs, one should not make declarative statements about them.

Last chance. I will ask the question again: What rule requires you to have an instrument rating?

Hint: When do you have to fly IFR?

[Spokes]

I knew someone would bite.

So without the 666 you may not exercise the priviledges of your IFR rating. Unless I am reading this wrong, there is something somewhere else more clear than this, I take it that I may not fly under instrument flying rules (IFR) unless I am 666 current- second year of course. To me this would include flying on an instrument flying rules flight plan.

I am not aware of any regulation which requires an instrument rating to file IFR. If you find one, please post it here.

Look back abit. I posted the regulations a few days ago.

[Aeros]

Part (b) of 401.47 says that an instrument rating as part of it's privileges allows you to fly VFR OTT. Does this mean the legal position is that you need an instrument rating to fly VFR OTT?

There are three ways that you can fly VFR OTT:
401.47 (b) -- Privileges of an Instrument Rating;
401.30 (1) (b) -- Privileges of a Commercial Pilot Licence; and
401.45 -- Privileges of a VFR OTT Rating.

That doesn't imply that you need all three to operate VFR OTT but it does mean that you that you have to hold at least ONE of them to do so. Since there is a(re) rating(s) that grant those privileges one must hold at least one of them before exercising those privileges.


It sounds like you don't buy my argument that "since there is a rating with XXX privileges, you must therefor hold that rating to exercise those privileges." This argument is supported by CAR 401.03 (emphasis added):

No person shall act as a flight crew member or exercise the privileges of a flight crew permit, licence or rating or a foreign licence validation certificate unless

(a) subject to subsection (2) and sections 401.19 to 401.27, the person is the holder of, and can produce while so acting and while exercising those privileges, the appropriate permit, licence or rating and a valid and appropriate medical certificate; or ...

Going back to your question, "What rule requires you to have an instrument rating?"

I'll break my answer down into a couple of steps:
1 - Let's start with the stem of 401.03. Is there a Licence, Permit or Rating that includes, as part of its privileges an "ability to fly under IFR"? -- Answer: YES, the Instrument Rating (CAR 401.47 (a)).
2 - Since the stem of 401.03 applies, we can now read further into the body of 401.03. Given that we are about to exercise the privileges of a Rating (in this case the Instrument Rating) 401.03 (a) says that we must hold that rating.

Bottom line, the answer to your question is 401.03 -- This is the regulation that requires someone to hold an Instrument Rating before operating IFR.