Nationair Crash & Website

[Joren]

Many thanks to BirdDog for linking the site.

For anyone questioning whether the employee in question did or did not say, I can attest that she did as I heard it with my own two ears.

Much like the comment you hear when a child dies "thank God you have another child", hearing something like that kinda sticks with you.

Someone upthread mentioned wanting to read the report. I have it in digital format somewhere - I'll see if I can find it, and upload it somewhere so others can download it.

Someone else mentioned Aldo being a Flight Attendant. He was listed in the manifest as being a mechanic. I have absolutely no indication that he was an FA at Nationair at either base. From the beginning he was listed as being on board as a mechanic.

[bmc]

I listed Aldo as customer service guy on board. Aldo previously worked at Nordair as did I. I was based up north and he was replacement manager for us when we went south. Aldo replaced me on several occasions. He was not a mechanic at Nordair.

[wabano]

We used to own that aircraft at the time...

The inside scoop I heard was that
the ground agent was asked by the Captain, in front of witnesses,
to inflate some tires which where too low on nitrogen.

For some reason, avarice or other, he did not...

So the tires overheated on take off and
exploded in the wheel well, severing control cables
and creating a very large hole in the fuselage,
through which many passengers fell off...
(rubber on runway is a sand monkey fabrication)

That had to be one of the most terrible accident you can think of.

George Bachelor had bought this airplane for the price of it's aluminium, about the same you would pay for a used airliner today.

After this, we where never in a hurry to pull up
that long gear handle after take off from a hot or high airport.

[CD]

Flight Safety Foundation Accident Prevention - Tire Failure on Takeoff Sets Stage for Fatal Inflight Fire and Crash

[wabano]

Thanks for the links...

Our information was that the crew was told that the tires had got
inflated properly, thus their disbelief in tire problems.

[...]

Flight Safety Foundation Accident Prevention - Tire Failure on Takeoff Sets Stage for Fatal Inflight Fire and Crash

Thank you CD.

Everytime I read that report I, and others connected to this including the families of course, we all get very emotionally charged over this. It seems time has no cure to heal these wounds.

Those that were there in 1991 at the old Wardair hangar when the remains of our friends were off loaded in their respective caskets from the crash must remember the distictive door siren going sounding as the doors motioned to close. Even today when I hear such a horn when any door hangar closes, it takes me back to that time. I remember witnessing the heartache on the faces of each family member, which months prior were smiles and laughter at a company Christmas party. There is nothing more devastating than watching a parent bury a child....nothing.

It sickens me that THIS could have all been avoided. Company culture like the one that existed at Nationair still exists today with other companies whether it be 703,704,705. Have we NOT learned anything from example after example after example???

The Keystone pilot that was left out to dry by it's company culture and routine going unquestioned. The example of 'Widow' and her present struggles. There are so many. Company culture.

We ALL have a story, and more often than not....they all have similar parallels.

I have more to state however, this has drained me. I wish everyone safe flying....everyone.

Thanks for reading.

[200hr Wonder]

I think we should all step back and remember that there is NO FLIGHT that we can conduct that is worth risking our lives for. Being unsafe will catch up with us all one day! I was just a youngin in '91 when this happened though I have lost friends in various other aircraft losses, and it is sad to say ALL of them did not have to happen. Fly safe everyone and do not accept or contribute to something that is not absolutely safe. No Flight, No Job is ever worth that.

[V2-OMG!]

Those that were there in 1991 at the old Wardair hangar when the remains of our friends were off loaded in their respective caskets from the crash must remember the distictive door siren going sounding as the doors motioned to close. Even today when I hear such a horn when any door hangar closes, it takes me back to that time. I remember witnessing the heartache on the faces of each family member, which months prior were smiles and laughter at a company Christmas party. There is nothing more devastating than watching a parent bury a child....nothing.

It sickens me that THIS could have all been avoided. Company culture like the one that existed at Nationair still exists today with other companies whether it be 703,704,705. Have we NOT learned anything from example after example after example???

Birddog, your account of what it was like being at the hangar and the haunt of that closing door siren touched me deeply. I am so sorry for the loss that you feel to this day.
When a tragedy like this was avoidable, that siren remains particularly shrill.

I was intrigued by your story, and the link to the Nationair website. How unfortunate that Canada has its own "Frank Lorenzo."

[C23flyer]

V2,

Did you mean avoidable?

[V2-OMG!]

V2,

Did you mean avoidable?

Thanks C23. Correction done. There was "debris" on keyboard.

(Tongue-in-cheek, and I am not making fun of the tragedy, but was paraphrasing Obadia after the Jeddah crash. What an unconscionable s.o.b. How could TC hire some of his allies?? That is even more unconscionable! )

[Joren]

Bird Dog wrote:

Those that were there in 1991 at the old Wardair hangar when the remains of our friends were off loaded in their respective caskets from the crash must remember the distictive door siren going sounding as the doors motioned to close. Even today when I hear such a horn when any door hangar closes, it takes me back to that time. I remember witnessing the heartache on the faces of each family member, which months prior were smiles and laughter at a company Christmas party. There is nothing more devastating than watching a parent bury a child....nothing.

I'm so glad you remember that too Bird Dog. Just a small correction .... It was the old Worldways hangar, and I too will never forget that door siren. Actually, until the day I die I'll never forget standing there with my back to the door when the siren went off, and then turning round after the doors opened and seeing all those hearses lined up outside, with planes taking off and landing and good ol' Terminal 1 and 2 in the background, as dozens of us pallbearers stood waiting to load the caskets into the hearses. And then the sirens again as the doors closed. Several of us were really overcome. It was both one of the saddest moments of my life but an honor for me to carry one of my friends and co-workers on their final trip.

It provided a certain level of acceptance and was an incredible sight (from what I'm told from other attendees who were watching it all), and was a very emotional ceremony.

In true Nationair style, some Management personnel had to cast a pall on it afterwards and referred to it as a "freakshow".

[...]

Hey Joren...I hope you're still around on this site...July 11th approaches.

Just thought I'd reach out to you...and others on here again during this anniversary.

Regards

IABD

[SkyWolfe]

Hello IAB...

I remember learning about this accident in class. It is the one that always stands out in my mind. I have seen all the Maydays, and they all are terrible, but something about this one always sat on my mind in some sort of eerie way.

Many times I have tried to tell people about this accident, and unlike all the Mayday stories, they never have a clue what I am talking about.

There is a video of it somewhere... We watched it for class. I don't know if it's available to the general public.

Sorry about the losses...

Wolfie

[...]

That's just amazing SkyWolfe. Learning this in 'aviation' class... What school? I am very impressed by the staff to include this in the learning material.

WE MUST NEVER EVER FORGET these accidents.

-----------------------break break---------------

Last night I met up with some YYZ pilots. All great, very nice, young professionals in the industry that were kind enough to invite the "old guy" out past his 9pm usual bedtime hour.

The topic of the KeyStone crash came up. I was kind of shocked a few of them didn't even know about this. For those of you that also are unaware of this...just search out "keystone" and you'll come across a slew of threads dedicated towards the topic.

It is of my opinion that a certain amount of "company culture" does have some influence in any accident. Where there is pilot error, there is sure to be a certain element of error to company culture and the way it's operated from a safety vs. $ standpoint.

People (non-aviation folk) tend to focus on the obvious, the crash itself. Professional crash investigators work backwards from the crash site. We all know this already.
SMS is supposed to have developed a proactive procedure to work towards eleminating this by having an open door policy regarding concerns before they develope into serious issues. Time will tell IF the system is working @ ALL levels.

SkyWolfe caught my attention with her post. I wish CRM training was taken more seriously in the lower levels of aviation NOT JUST IN THE AIRLINES...
It should start right from the grass roots up.

I wish there were a compilation of all the crash investigation documentaries geared toward an industry standard for CRM in a constructive inclass comprehensive positive teaching structure BEFORE ANYONE EVEN GETS THEIR PRIVATE PILOT TICKET!!!!!!

Start from the grass roots....

This is why I refuse to let Keystone crash story die. This is why I refuse to let the Nationair story die on this site.

By not promoting these types of stories for new up&coming professionals, history will repeat itself....

To the Chief pilots & Ops people in the 703 world...would you be prepared to sit in front of the families of employees you had under your employ during an aviation tribunal and state the following;

"Mr. & Mrs. XXX, although I had operational control over the airplane your son/daughter was flying....I did little or nothing to stop certain events that led up to the crash...and that's why he/she is dead...I'm sorry."

...if not, eventually....you're conscience will.

Fly safe kids.

[CD]

Here is another topic that should be taught early on...

Pilots: Stay Safe, Know Your Rights

This might be the video that Wolfie is thinking of:

* Sobering video. The 1991 fatal crash of a Nationair DC-8 is the subject of a video produced by Canada's Maintenance and Ramp Safety Society (MARSS) titled "Death of an Airline." According to one attendee at the CASS '99 conference covered in last week's issue, the 36-minute video captures "the dirty dozen" contributors to human error in action. The video deals with the laxity and oversights that led up to the 1991 crash of a Nationair DC-8 at Jeddah, Saudi Arabia that killed all 261 aboard (which contributed to the shutdown of the airline some 15 months later).

There is also another one out there, I think produced by the Discovery Channel, that looked at how the forensic investigators supported the accident investigation.

[SkyWolfe]

There were many accidents that we were made to view, and dissect using the "swiss cheese" model.

This one we wrote an in class report on identifying each contributing factor as to "why" this accident took place and "how" it could have been prevented in our opinion.

I was with BCIT.

I agree 100% that all PPLs and CPLs should receive the CRM training IMHO. I found the training helpful... and I think I am a bit more safety minded because of it

Wolfie

CD, that is the video.

[Joren]

Hey Joren...I hope you're still around on this site...July 11th approaches.

Just thought I'd reach out to you...and others on here again during this anniversary.

Regards

IABD

Thanks IABD, I occasionally check in here.

What I find so interesting/maddening is that people who have lived through an experience such as what happened at Nationair go on to work at other airlines and allow the same, for lack of a better word, CRAP to go on. Or at least participate in it. I don't know, maybe they figure lightning won't strike twice?

I remember about 10 years back that Discovery channel (I think) had an episode of a program called "Forbidden Places" (or something like that) where they had discussed the Nationair crash. I wrote to them but they didn't have copies for sale.

[JetDR]

I have the Video "Death of an Airline". For everyones info, it was produced by Maintenance and Ramp Safety Society, 5750 Cedarbridge Way, Richmond, BC Canada. It is titled "Human Performance in Maintenance, Series #1".

[...]

I have the Video "Death of an Airline". For everyones info, it was produced by Maintenance and Ramp Safety Society, 5750 Cedarbridge Way, Richmond, BC Canada. It is titled "Human Performance in Maintenance, Series #1".

Death of an airline...I think that is also the title of the book the president/owner Robert Obadia printed shortly afterward they closed the doors April 1st, 1993. Is it possible to upload it to say, google video?

[SkyWolfe]

Some of the video is corny and cheap, but it sent shivers up and down my spine anyway.