would you... or...?

[justwanttofly]

Good morning all,

I have posted many topics in regards to flight training and my aspirations to make a career staying more on the GA side of things preferably charter/medevac. I have recently just completed my PPL, and going to be starting on my CPL in the next couple months. I would love to be an instructor, but also wouldn't mind heading up north. I have my sights set on single/twin turbine aircraft. I've read that the money is not great for these jobs, since a company could find someone starting out who they can pay much less. The thing is, even though I'm still fairly new to the industry, I can tell you right now that I will be happy flying a King Air (North or South) as long as I can afford to eat, and have have a place to live.

Okay so here's my question. I cannot afford to do my Multi-ifr and instructor rating, so which route would better suit my goals in today's industry? I know there is not just one way nor a better way, all I'm asking is for your opinion.

Thank you,

JustWanttoFly

[yvanddivans]

I would have chosen off-country but I guess up-north is kindda far-off too :)

[ditar]

If you have a desire to instruct and not just a desire for hours go the instructor route. You can then do your multi-IFR when you have a few hundred more hours. You'll probably save money by this point because you'll be a sharper pilot if you've been putting a concerted effort into your job, and may get a discount from your employer on sim or even flight time. I think it's still easier to get a first posting as an instructor than as a low-timer some place else. That being said, I'm sure a person will learn a lot working the ramp or dock some place too. I didn't do that so I don't know personally. But at least as an instructor you start flying right away, and if you work at a larger school you get the chance to network with a lot of different people which can help down the road.

[SuperchargedRS]

Why dont you just worry about working on your commercial first, you have allot of hours to burn.

Fly all over the place...I got job offers when I was flying to different fields and talking to the folks as I waited to regain feeling in my azz lol ...feel out the market while you build your hours, THEN figure out what ratings you want (as those ratings are towards the end of the road in your CPL training anyways)


-S

[206]

I don't know if I'd recommend taking the flight instructor path. A tough way to go unless you plan to be a flight instructor for the rest of your career. Have flown with a bunch of former flight instructors, and it's always easy to tell who they are. You may have 1000hrs, but you might as well consider that a fresh commercial if you've only done instructing. I'm sure there will be a bunch of people boking about this who are current or former instructor's themselves, but that's just the way it is. I am currently working in Northern MB and lineindocing a 800hr guy. He even admits that all the hours he's logged as an instructor pretty much go out the window when you hit the real world. And I know employers look at the type of hours one has before they hire them as well. Sad truth, but the truth non the less. Sucks because we need good flight instructors to get us where we want to go. And it's not like it's impossible to make the transition from instructing to operational work, it's just a totally different path.
On the flip side, getting that first job up north or anywhere else is a huge pain too. More than likely going to have to start off on the ramp and work your way up. Pay your dues, if you will. And in todays economy, it's going to be even tougher. I suggest road trip and keeping your ears open as you go. Never work for free, but meeting the CP in person and making a few sacrifices may pay off in the long run.
If I had to do it all over again, I'd even consider looking abroad. I know of a few countries who take on low timers.
So in which ever route you take to get to your dream job, it's not going to be easy at first. But hopefully it'll pay off one day. Good luck.

Bring on the onslaught.

[ditar]

I am currently working in Northern MB and lineindocing a 800hr guy. He even admits that all the hours he's logged as an instructor pretty much go out the window when you hit the real world.

There is some truth to this. Instructing does not really teach you much about operational flying in the bush. Depending on what your next job is, though, it can help you out a great deal. Lots of my former instructing colleagues have gone on to be very successful in charter and corporate flying. A good instructor should have a strong knowledge of the CARS and pretty decent stick and rudder skills considering they have to demonstrate all the exercises perfectly (in theory, of course). I'm sure that there are many exceptions to this. But don't generalize the situation. How you come out of it is a product of what you put into it.

And I know employers look at the type of hours one has before they hire them as well.

Some like instructors, others don't, and many don't care, as long as the candidate meets the insurance requirements. Every employer has their own rationale.

Sucks because we need good flight instructors to get us where we want to go.

Everyone will agree. If it paid better maybe instructors would stay on longer or go back to it later when they were more experienced. But if it paid better nobody would be able to afford lessons.

And it's not like it's impossible to make the transition from instructing to operational work, it's just a totally different path.

I think you're making it out to be a lot harder than it is. I didn't have any problem with it, and most people I know didn't either. But yes, every situation and job has its unique challenges. Part of being a good pilot is being able to learn new things and adapt to new situations.

[justwanttofly]

Wow, thank you very much for all your detailed responses, as they are much appreciated. I've not only been reading them, but monitoring the poll I've posted. I've seen the numbers go both ways, and they are now fairly close.

Let me tell you a little more about my non aviation related background. I currently work as a Guest Service Manager at a hotel, and have been working in hotels for about five years now. It has taken me all over Canada, in positions such as bellhop, front desk agent, night auditor, manager on duty, and now my current position as a GSM. I'm not sure if that will change your opinion, but I just wanted to give you insight as to why, I would be best suited, and I have my heart set on being a charter pilot.

Thanks again, and please keep the great responses coming.

Justwanttofly

[justwanttofly]

So the poll is still pretty close. Does anyone else have anymore advice, or input?

[pika]

I can tell you right now that I will be happy flying a King Air (North or South) as long as I can afford to eat, and have have a place to live.

The above is subject to a fairly wide interpretation. The glamour of flying a King Air might be eclipsed by the reality of KD dinners, a piece of junk vehicle, and a crappy apartment with hand me down furniture at some point.

Most of us have probably been there. I could afford to eat but certainly not all that well. Vehicle doors couldn't lock but 1984 tape decks aren't real popular these days so it was safe enough. Why does the ceiling leak everytime my neighbor above has a shower?

Oh the glamour that was mine...

[loopa]

So the poll is still pretty close. Does anyone else have anymore advice, or input?

I have one.

Find a talent, liking, interest, aspiration.

Get really good at it

Find the way to make good money from it.

Why are you limiting your self to King Airs? So that you don't have to hear the "you won't be guaranteed an airline job" rant?

Seriously, if you want to do well in any industry, limiting your self as a "book keeper" or a fairly low end transportation job is a waste.

Instead of chasing the plane (king airs, b737's), chase the life style. Chances are if you found an instructing job that pays you 7000 bucks per month, you wouldn't really see the need to do anything else right?

Now there aren't very many 7k instructor jobs, but if you become a senior one at a very good flight training unit, chances are you'll be making such salaries.

You know what you're flying there? C172's and Piper Seneca's. Would you be perfectly happy there? Probably !

Reality is, the human psychology is such where you will want to find the utmost limit of your capabilities, commensurate with your physical and mental safety. This is why people want to progress, get raises, get promoted, get a higher education... etc

The thing is, flying King Air's may be fun for you after you've done almost everything. But don't just say I want to fly King Air's, cause I don't really think you know what flying King Air's are like. When you compare it to other kind of flying, it's actually kind of boring. But people are different; however, that psychology applies to all / majority.

Set your goals high man, work hard and I'm sure you'll secure a good life style. Yes, in Aviation.

[justwanttofly]

Thanks for the great replies. Aviation is my "liking, interest, aspiration" and from what I think I'm pretty "talented" but what 88 hour wonder doesnt think that. I'm not the best, but my goal is to be, and thrive to push myself to that level.

The reason I say King Air is because when I go to the airport, and watch planes which is pretty much everyday, its the plane that I really have taken a liking to. I've never flown one, but I've seen them fly, and I've researched its capabilities, and limitations. I also like the PC-12 and all corporate style aircraft for the same reasons. I seriously have no desire to fly the heavy tin, but I guess thats because so far I've only flown Cessna's. I defenitly believe and have confidence in the fact that I could make it to the majors, just dont know if its for me. I prefer to have more of an interaction with the clients, hence my current position(GSM at a hotel). That could change though since some days people can be mildly frustrating. So its not that im limiting myself to one aircraft, just one side of aviation. Whats so appealing about the airlines?

At current I drive a 87' Honda accord, and I love it. I mean I know its not going to last forever, but theres only up from my car. It gets me to the airport and back. The ladies dont really like it to much, but thats fine. I really dont mind KD, its easy and pretty tasty if you mix it up. I'm not really much of a cook, so Ill have to get used to it since there is no plans for a relationship (girlfriend) in the near future, if that all. It would be nice, but I understand staying mobile is the best way to establish a career in aviation. Plus I don't need the emotional terrorism, as I dealt with enough in the 8 years with my ex, who is totally for too much education(Phd/Masters) and an anti pilot.

Loopa, you say flying a KA would be boring, but one may enjoy it after they've done almost everything. What do you mean? You also tell me to set my goals high, work hard and you're sure I'll secure a good life style in aviation. I really hope you're right, as I couldnt imagine doing anything else with my life. I've made many sacrifices, which I know there will be many more, and in the end i know it will make reaching my dreams that much more worth it/ rewarding. Short term pain = long term gain; or so they say

justwanttofly

[loopa]

Hey Buddy,

Thanks for the pm btw

Thanks for the great replies. Aviation is my "liking, interest, aspiration" and from what I think I'm pretty "talented" but what 88 hour wonder doesnt think that. I'm not the best, but my goal is to be, and thrive to push myself to that level.

It's not just 88 hour wonders who think that, it applies to ALL pilot's. We all think we're good at what we do. The reason behind it is that flying is tightly attached to your emotional aspiration to aviation. Chances are you loved planes from the age of 4 and 5 or even in the teens. These are the years where you develop, find interests, and a reason / purpose in your life. For aviators, their purpose is flying or an aviation related career / hobby. If they don't think that they are the best (ego), nothing will drive them because it's a very competitive industry.

Fact is, there is no best in anything. There are top rated pilot's which are rated according to standards. In the case of a flight test those are the flight test standards. If you're a guy who constantly scores in the high 90's on your flight test and written tests, chances are you are on the high end of piloting. Of course there are many other factors such as flight test examiners, nutrition, sleep, stress levels, and overall - human factors.

In my case, I've never failed a flight test and I've done really well on all of my exams. Screw all of you I'm god's gift to aviation. My name is aviationknowitall and I'm the best. Have you read that thread? Did you see people's replies? That's because none of us want to accept that there are pilot's who are better than us, especially when that other pilot/troll is behind a computer (where qualifications can't be confirmed) or at the same level of experience/qualifications in this industry.

In the perspective of when you're a pilot, and have a chief pilot. You will listen to him cause a) you take his credibility / experience into effect causing you to not question him when he/she corrects you. If you got the same advice from another 88 hour wonder chances are you two wouldn't be friends any more. B) because your ass will get fired if you don't listen to your Chief Pilot

oopa, you say flying a KA would be boring, but one may enjoy it after they've done almost everything. What do you mean? You also tell me to set my goals high, work hard and you're sure I'll secure a good life style in aviation. I really hope you're right, as I couldnt imagine doing anything else with my life. I've made many sacrifices, which I know there will be many more, and in the end i know it will make reaching my dreams that much more worth it/ rewarding. Short term pain = long term gain; or so they say

Well, my whole point is that at 88 hours, you have a lot ahead of you. I used to love B747-sp's mainly cause my dad was a training captain on one of them before. Then he passed away, and I've gone through liking DA42's, B767's, B777, A340's, A320's... You go through a lot of changes especially as you complete training on those planes and move up in the industry.

At 88 hours you don't know what flying a King Air is like. You can't really evaluate that until you are in command of a king air (flying).

I'm not discouraging your goal to fly a king air, but I'm saying that a king air isn't as exciting as it may seem. Neither is flying a 757 full time. Having a 737 job, doing flight instruction, and passing on PROPER instruction ? Now that's a way to improve flight training and increase AIR SAFETY. Which is essentially what your job as a pilot entails. SAFETY

[SuperchargedRS]

Another factor in your training and future outlook is WHERE, in WHAT and HOW you do your training.

You got some hours to burn, if you just fly within a 300nm circle in a sky civic (172) then your going to be average (I could careless about the tests and standards, I tend to look at what people fly and how fluidically they handle the machine...you knock out your CAVU, 0 wind checkride, but lets see Mr Top Gun in a 30kt X-wind density alt).

When you get your PPL go put a 1500nm X-country under your belt, fly down to Mexico and back, fly to Cuba and back, THATS what builds a pilot, THATS why I had job offers before I got my CPL lol

All I'm getting at is don't just think of what your going to get on your ticket, think of HOW YOU ARE GOING TO GET IT.

hope that helps

[loopa]

Supercharged really just completed the puzzle there. He added the bit that I totally forgot to mention.

You could score aces on your flight test but when stuck in sticky situations, you may be too overwhelmed.


Realism and Experience are those kind of qualities that has no mark attached to it.

[justwanttofly]

loopa, I figured it would be the best way to draw your attention to the post, since you've been a huge contributor.

It's true, I have been interested in becoming a pilot for longer than I can remember. If I could log all the hours I spent thinking/talking about aviation, or doing aviation related things (plane spotting, touring hangers, interviewing pilots) I would be a very established pilot. My ego isn't overly big, but I think its big enough to survive the competitiveness of the industry. We'll that along with a lot of perseverance, love for the industry, and my desire to be a pilot. Not a second goes by I don't think about flying, but money was an issue. I have worked my ass off over the past few years and now things are finally starting to come together.

I'm not the type of person who always scores 90s without hard work; 70s is more like it unless I have my heart, mind and soul set on it like it is on being a pilot. Congrats to loopa, and all those people have never failed a flight test. Yes, I've read about the 'aviationknowitall', and I've seen the posts on here. From what I'm told those are the type who seem to run into trouble since they constantly bang heads with the CP or Capt. making them not very pleasurable to work with. Me I enjoy learning, and pushing myself to know it all, but I do know that its not possible. Also when you think you know it all you cancel out the opportunity to be better, or know even more, but I guess that's okay since you are the master/god of aviation.

I'm sorry to hear about your loss loopa. My dad too is a pilot, but gave it up to raise a family. He was some what against my dreams of becoming a pilot, but has recently accepted the fact since, I left university, friends, family, and even home province to make something I'm so passionate about possible. I don't have anyone to pave to way for me, but I think that's what keeps me going knowing that I will one day reach my goal, and REALLY appreciate it.

Flying a king air/corporate aircraft, and instructing would be be ideal, but I guess flying a 737 would be pretty cool too. Oh the possibilities, but what limits them?

Supercharged, that too is VERY good advice. I'm from Ontario, and now live in Alberta, so perhaps a cross country is in the not to distant future. Mexico would be pretty awesome too. I'm also not at a flight college either, so chances are as long as I do my planning right they wont have a problem with it. With regards to how and not the what, that is also excellent advice and helps.

So back to the initial question Instruct or head north?

Again, thanks a bunch to everyone who has contributed to this forum. I have gained lots of knowledge through the advice given.I hope that others read this and can take away as much as I have. Please keep posting if you have anything to add.

All the best,

Justwanttofly

[Hedley]

There are top rated pilot's which are rated according to standards

IMHO, the proof is in the pudding.

If, after a lifetime of flying, and a shelf of logbooks, if you've never
dented an aircraft, objectively you are a "top rated pilot".

If you've crashed a bunch of airplanes, and killed a pile of
passengers and people on the ground, not so much.

People stress about artificial flight tests, but the real test
comes when you're PIC in a real, sticky situation.

For example, a good friend of mine - and a superb pilot, IMHO -
dead-sticked a B737 after both engines flamed out (rain/hail):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TACA_Flight_110

I'm sure you've never heard of it, but it was a superb
demonstration of incredible pilot skill.

Everyone lived, and the aircraft is still flying today.

Now, that's the real test - not artificial standards
in a glued-together sheaf of paper somewhere.

[loopa]

You can never really measure somebody's capabilities until all the training and experience gets inserted into a time limited decision making process.

Generally you will find that the people who constantly do well in the industry are the ones who have the skills, knowledge, and proper "experience" to successfully solve a sticky situation.