Petition for "College of Professional Pilots"?

[Sidebar]

Deal with it.

I think development of a professional oversight body independent of TC would be a means of dealing with it. Unfortunately, as you point out, a lot of unproductive bitching comes along with the good ideas.

[black hole]

Check out the Musicians Union.???!!

BH

[teacher]

Instead of getting out I'd rather stay in, follow my passion for flying and make it a better place to be for me and those that will come after me.

[xsbank]

The way I see it, if an entrepreneur wishes to run a business with more staff than just himself, he should have to pay a 'fair' wage, which means compensating a pilot fairly for his skills and his ability to generate revenue. If the E. does not wish to pay a fair wage, his business model sucks, he didn't plan it properly and he should fail, just like all those other businesses that you see closed in Canada, that didn't get it right.

There is no reason that an E shouldn't earn a return on his investment, he just needs to factor the wages of the skilled labour he needs to do same. That goes for the fees he needs to charge those whom he wishes to service, too.

If that means a shortage of jobs, so be it. They weren't worth having anyway, they distorted the market for pilots and pilots would then have a more realistic expectation to earn a reasonable wage, ie MORE than a f*cking bus driver who works 8 hours or less, earns overtime, has full benefits, a retirement plan and minimal training, gets regular breaks and is home every night. He also doesn't need to live in Scumsucker Lake for 2 years washing buses before he gets his big driving break.

Edit: Buses SEEM to be subsidized, but unless you move the workers to where the jobs are or the shoppers to where the shops are, the whole shitteree will collapse. I actually have always advocated that buses should be free, to get people out of their cars and encourage people to live in the city. Every car off the road means less potholes to fill, less pollution and less health ills. Subsidized? Only if you look at the surface.

[Widow]

“Prerequisites ...
(2) The activities of the organization are limited to aviation safety oversight activities;

This final quote would limit activities of a "Professional Pilots College" to oversight only, limiting opportunity to also advocate for safety improvements, better working conditions, pay, etc.

If I may suggest, pay, hours, working conditions, etc., seem to have been identified as "safety issues" by various agencies the world over ... so I would think that that in overseeing safety, a Professional Pilots College could well advocate for improvements in these areas - or insist on them.

[rightseatwonder]

The way I see it, if an entrepreneur wishes to run a business with more staff than just himself, he should have to pay a 'fair' wage, which means compensating a pilot fairly for his skills and his ability to generate revenue. If the E. does not wish to pay a fair wage, his business model sucks, he didn't plan it properly and he should fail, just like all those other businesses that you see closed in Canada, that didn't get it right.

There is no reason that an E shouldn't earn a return on his investment, he just needs to factor the wages of the skilled labour he needs to do same. That goes for the fees he needs to charge those whom he wishes to service, too.

If that means a shortage of jobs, so be it. They weren't worth having anyway, they distorted the market for pilots and pilots would then have a more realistic expectation to earn a reasonable wage, ie MORE than a f*cking bus driver who works 8 hours or less, earns overtime, has full benefits, a retirement plan and minimal training, gets regular breaks and is home every night. He also doesn't need to live in Scumsucker Lake for 2 years washing buses before he gets his big driving break.

***************


so im an entrepreneur, and i am going to start up a flying business. Part of my plan is to estimate operating expenses including pilot wages. Where do I get this information from... do I go the the Port 'o Call and ask a pilot how much he SHOULD be making or do I research the industry and see what the average pay scales are... SUPPLY AND DEMAND RULES!!!

As long as there is a supply of pilots who will work for less and less, there will never be an altruistic employer who will pay them substantially more to do the same job.

Place a value on what you think your skills are worth BEFORE becoming a professional pilot and never settle for less.

This is the only way to start digging ourselves out of the muck.

['effin hippie]

I'm with Culver here.
And KAG I think you're being pretty cheap by defaulting to accusations of unsafe, bullying operation simply because he came out of his corner swinging.
All he said was, if you think it's so bad, try it yourself; and he's right. There are not very many of us on this site who have actually had to make the books of our own operation balance at the end of the month.

RSW has pointed out that supply and demand rules this situation and he's right too. What we all feel we are worth, all the clever comparasins to other supposedly similar vocations, are nothing more than whining.

Doug's club, call it what you will, will ONLY work if it restricts the supply of pilots. Since I am already in the club, I of course think this is a great idea. But that is the key: create an artificial scarcity. Doctors do it, works good.

Actually I think a lot of this has to do with women and marriage: as long as a guy is single he is more willing to take shit money because flying is a 'sexy' profession and he figures he can get women that way. About 10 minutes after the cake gets cut she suddenly decides that money and lifestyle are actually what's sexy, and he's on here trying to launch a crusade

I haven't a clue what a female pilot's excuse is.

ef

[GilletteNorth]

Effin, you said what I wanted to in your first paragraph. As well as hitting the nail on the head in your second.

There are lots of industries that create artificial shortages in order to keep prices high. Lawyers have to pass a bar exam. Milk producers have to buy quota. I'm surprised no one has thought of the obvious. Set the standard to become a pilot alot higher. The Canadian Forces does it all the time. Tens of thousands apply, they choose only the top people who apply to attempt to train, and only a small percentage of those make it through every year.

Stop letting every person who can fly become a commercial pilot? I mean seriously, who can't fly a C172? Hedley could teach a monkey to fly a C172 but that wouldn't mean the monkey would be qualified to become a commercial pilot. Tell them they have to have 3000 hours and be able to fly an ATR-43 before they can take the commercial test? I don't know... just set the bar a lot higher and you'll reduce the pilot supply. And this has the benefit of shutting up those who claim there's a dumbing down of aviation.

[rsandor]

Personally I think the government can afford to give bigger tax breaks to lower time pilots who work for small operations.

The money will eventually get spent and return in the form of sales tax anyways...

[Legacy]

Is there ever a lot of meat heads posting on this topic. A guy here is trying to better this industry and you are slamming his idea? You are one self absorbed little prick. You know who I am talking about. Obviously you haven't had enough friends not come back to their families at the end of the day because their boss cheaped out on maintenance (or whatever other countless reason). Its also obvious you haven't been in this industry long enough to see the operations that somehow get by their audits. We all have a right to safe work. This original poster obviously knows this and is trying to enforce it. Some of you mention something like "That's what TC or the labor law is for". This is a very reactive approach. You go to TC/labor law AFTER the fact some regulation has been broken. A College of Professional Pilots would help maintain the safety BEFORE regulations are crossed. Some of you meat heads should really think before you type. You got bloody tunnel vision and obviously have a "ME ME ME" attitude. I for one have a nice comfortable job making nice money now and would still be interested in an organization such as this because it may help protect my kids (or yours) one day from the crap we have all come to see in this industry.

[righthandman]

Yes I am all for it. I only wish that (for once) such a "movement" wouldn't run out of steam.

[teacher]

Like many professional organizations a "fee guide" is issued and outlines the amount that is to be charged for said services. An organization like this with consultation with pilots and industry could come up with a fair base wage that would be acceptable. Like in many health care segments those that "charge below the fee guide" are well known and not respected. It's not a big punishment BUT it's a start.

Piston twin FO: this
Piston twin Captain: that

Turbo prop 19 seats or less FO: something
Turbo prop 19 seats or less Captain: something else

Or could even get type specific.

Included in thie document would be things that should not and will not be considered acceptable practices such as paying for your job or paying an employer to fly for them among other things.

We have to start somewhere, this would not be a union but an association that would system wide have an advocacy voice for everyone and work towards a greater good rather than individual goals. Lofty ideals I'm sure but better to aim high I think.

With TCs oversight they could get into the license issuing business eventually as well. I'm sure health Canada has some kind of oversight onto who gets a medical,dental,physio etc license.

[shannon]

I don't blame the owners. Pilots are to blame for the pay and conditions that they love to bitch about. Supply and demand, nothing more. Pilots continue to fly the sketchy routes in sketchy aircraft with sketchy maintenance because they want to build the hours.

How many lower time pilots actually refuse shitty work, how many lower-medium time pilots help create the culture that allows low time pilots to be pressured.

They make the situation possible. They flood the marketplace with inexperienced, semi skilled labour with no education and therefore no other choices.

A business is doing what is economically sound for the business. Pilots should do the same thing.

[teacher]

It's much easier to do when you have something or someone who has your back. Yes, I'm one to talk, I stood up for myself twice against shitty operators and was fired twice for my troubles.

[Legacy]

Hope you got severance pay for that. Would be nice to know what happened and which companies. Things like this should be well known in our industry.

[snaproll20]

This idea is so great that more than a year ago, I offered to get it going. I asked for (I think) a $10 donation from each person to get the administration off the ground.

So far, the "association" income balance is ZERO. Not even a PM.

Go figure.

As an old friend used to say "Pilots and little green apples."

Instant recognition, instant gratification, instant rewards, instant satisfaction of wildest expectations.

If your only choice is to be an employEE rather than an employER, then you have to realize the cheapest commodity on Earth to exploit is labour, and learn to live with it.

[wheeliedriver]

I'm in!

[loopy]

I think this is a brilliant and long overdue idea and have taken part in similar discussions on this board in the past.

As for who's to blame regarding poor working conditions and salaries, it takes two to tango. Low time newbies with a dream and hungry to get their career going and frustrated by the options, and the operators who take advantage of them. The question is, do those of us who now have some experience in this profession just want to sit in our armchairs and gripe, pointing fingers, judging and assigning blame? Or do you want to be a part of improving the industry now and for the future?

Other bodies of operators take part in discussion groups regarding regulatory changes and safety issues. A national pilot group should be involved in such talks. I think looking at licensing requirements and renumeration for flying different equipment is important. The banning of training bonds is right up there on my list. To act as a watch dog on behalf of pilots and look out for the shady operators.

I think it is high time we do more than just talk (we all know pilots can talk) and take some action.

[Koizie1]

A Pilot Association would have many other benefits besides pay, and for this I think its long overdue. Especially as tool to help pilots getting screwed by transport/the courts/their companies on legal issues.

In the aviation business pilots are a commodity. This cost of any commodity is ruled by supply and demand. You know where I`m going with this. We have more pilots than jobs, particularly low timers. A lawyers or doctors pay is based on supply and demand too, however they get weeded out in high school where you have to display a work ethic from your early teens to get accepted into a good university, then you have to study hard for another four or five years to get a good degree, and then you begin making money.

Aviation you turn up at a flight school and start flying.

While the current commercial/atpl license system is in effect pay CANNOT go up. Do I like it? no. 650hrs ground school for a JAR atpl and probably pay for a type rating. It puts a lot of people off. Lets face it a monkey with a headset and $50G could get a Canadian CPL.

[206]

teacher, you along with a few other people are the ones we're all sick of hearing. Moaning and groaning about things.....I hear accounting pays well. Or maybe school bus driver? Just... shhhhhhhh. We get your point. Nothing is changing fast tho. Get a hobbie.