Upset training

[Rockie]

No, rolling "g" is worse in any aircraft. If you find yourself inverted in a transport category jet (nose low) it is best to unload to slight positive g (if nothing else it will reduce injuries in the back), maximum aileron deflection to wings level and then pull to the horizon. Leave your feet on the floor in all cases either nose high or nose low. Also don't waste any time trying to figure out which direction to roll is the shortest. If it isn't immediately obvious then just pick a direction and do it.

[MichaelP]

Of course the original subject was not about being inverted in a large transport aircraft becoming inverted in the way a light aircraft can become inverted in a large aircraft's wake turbulence is less likely.
It might be the wake turbulence off a large UFO from planet Zog that upsets a Boeing 747 perhaps.

I often wonder whether the use of rudder and using standard stall recovery techniques might have saved a DC10 many years ago when an engine pod's rear attachment broke and the engine tore itself over the top of the wing while wrecking the leading edge devices and their hydraulic lines. The DC10 rolled inverted and into the ground.

There was of course no hope for the MD83 of Alaskan...
But what about the China Airlines 747, did they roll out?

The tendancy to pull from the inverted is very strong in many people and I can tell you from recent experience that even a gentle + 0.5g or less pull while inverted nets a large increase in speed with a great loss of height... Of course I didn't let it go too far, I am writing this at my desk and not from the grave!

At 2 minutes and 1 second into this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPBgqWAfRa8 you see me roll and then barrel out from the inverted... This is not the way to do it!
But for the movie the director wanted 'Biggles' to save the camera while Jim who could not fly ended up with the aeroplane upside down. This would have been impossible for the bloke in front and so I agreed to roll it upside down and then add a little positive g to not make it less than comfortable for the bloke in front. The roll was started at about 70 KIAS.
You can see how rapidly a little positive g inverted will take you down!

[trampbike]

I'm a new PPL owner so I know nothing about inverted flying and never experienced any thing like this, but I don't understand how it would be possible that the instinctive first reaction to be inverted is to pull... In my opinion, it seems much more natural to continue to roll, and I don't understand why someone would try to pull (doing some kind of a split S from what I understand).

Willing to learn...

[Hedley]

I don't understand how it would be possible that the instinctive first reaction to be inverted is to pull

Most pilots, when they are inverted, are not happy, and
don't want to be inverted any more. They want to go
up. How do you (usually) make an airplane go up?

Same wrong instincts apply to stalls and spins. Remember
the Colgan dash-8 that crashed into Buffalo last winter?

After all sort of hysterically funny and completely incorrect
speculation on this website, it turns out that he simply
slowed down too much, and then stalled. Wanting to
go up, he pulled all the way back, and deepened the
stall. Then he had a wingdrop, and tried to pick up the
downgoing wing with aileron, which of course (because
of adverse yaw) is the worst thing to do. Everyone died.

Your instinctive reactions are often quite wrong. Learning
new ones is not easy.

Most pilots are like turtles - they do NOT want to be
upside down. Ever.

[trampbike]

Then I'm glad that I my instinct might not be too bad (but unless in a bad situation I guess you can never really know...)!

Makes me think of cyclists, during races, that see others crash in a corner... What they do? They push on the brakes. What happens? They fall too! The good reaction is to not touch the brake and just lean as much as possible.


Other question: What is exactly the difference between barrell roll and aileron roll? A search on google hasn't helped me much in understanding the difference.

[Hedley]

Even amongst aerobatic pilots, there is some confusion
as to what a barrel roll is, and what an aileron roll is.

There are many different kinds of rolls: slow rolls (which
are often anything but), point rolls, snap rolls, torque rolls ...

Anyways. An aileron roll (also known as a ballistic roll) is
a NON-VERTICAL maneuver involving aerobatics in the
(mostly) horizontal plane. The aircraft track over the
ground never changes. You fly one by pitching up,
neutralizing the stick (no back elevator!), then stick
full over. During the roll, the nose will naturally drop,
but that's ok, you raised it during the entry, so you
will exit wings level in a slightly nose-low attitude,
which you gently ease level from. During an aileron
roll you might pull +2G in the entry, +0.5G while
inverted (if you do it right), and another +2G pull
in the exit. Lovely maneuver.

A barrel roll is often confused with an aileron roll,
and should not be. The easiest way to understand
a barrel roll is to tear off a piece of paper, and make
a circle (loop) with your fingers holding the ends of
the strip together on a table. That's a loop. Now,
move your fingers away from each other, separating
the ends of the strip to for a spiral.

THAT'S A BARREL ROLL - it's simply a spiralled loop.
It's a vertical maneuver in that it involves a pull
from level to vertical, which the aileron roll does not.

Bill Thomas taught me the above in Venice, Florida.
You probably never heard of him, that's ok.

I'll let other people here define the badly-named slow roll,
the snap roll, and the torque roll

[Rockie]

Of course the original subject was not about being inverted in a large transport aircraft becoming inverted in the way a light aircraft can become inverted in a large aircraft's wake turbulence is less likely.
It might be the wake turbulence off a large UFO from planet Zog that upsets a Boeing 747 perhaps.

I often wonder whether the use of rudder and using standard stall recovery techniques might have saved a DC10 many years ago when an engine pod's rear attachment broke and the engine tore itself over the top of the wing while wrecking the leading edge devices and their hydraulic lines. The DC10 rolled inverted and into the ground.

There was of course no hope for the MD83 of Alaskan...
But what about the China Airlines 747, did they roll out?

Of course the bigger the airplane the larger the external influence it takes to make it go upside down, but don't roll your eyes because it can happen for many reasons that have nothing to do with wake turbulence as with the cases you go on to mention. The nice thing about the recovery technique for a large jet is that it also works in a 2000 lb cessna. The idea isn't to make Bob Hoover's out of anybody, it's to have a nice simple recovery technique to get the world looking normal for them again without killing themselves.

[mcrit]

I don't know about cessna's and such, but anybody recovering from an upset in a transport category jet should leave their feet firmly glued to the floor and off the rudder pedals.

That's a good point, I have to admit I was thinking mostly of someone in a light aircraft.

It might be the wake turbulence off a large UFO from planet Zog that upsets a Boeing 747 perhaps.

Or an autopilot runaway. (Granted, that's more of an Airbus thing than a Boeing thing so the 747 should be safe. )

[mcrit]

The nice thing about the recovery technique for a large jet is that it also works in a 2000 lb cessna. The idea isn't to make Bob Hoover's out of anybody, it's to have a nice simple recovery technique to get the world looking normal for them again without killing themselves.

I understand where you are coming from when it comes to keeping the rudder's neutral on a larger a/c, but I'd like to point out that on most smaller a/c (typical 4 seaters) full aileron deflection does not give all that great a roll rate without some pro-roll rudder.

[Rockie]

Or an autopilot runaway. (Granted, that's more of an Airbus thing than a Boeing thing so the 747 should be safe.

That's a misconception. There actually isn't an autopilot in a 320/330/340/380 series Airbus. There is a switch (two actually) that tells the various flight control computers that are always on anyway to follow the flight director commands, and another button to turn on the autothrust. So the result is you cannot have an autopilot runaway in an Airbus. Nor can you have runaway pitch trim since there isn't any.

[Rockie]

The nice thing about the recovery technique for a large jet is that it also works in a 2000 lb cessna. The idea isn't to make Bob Hoover's out of anybody, it's to have a nice simple recovery technique to get the world looking normal for them again without killing themselves.

I understand where you are coming from when it comes to keeping the rudder's neutral on a larger a/c, but I'd like to point out that on most smaller a/c (typical 4 seaters) full aileron deflection does not give all that great a roll rate without some pro-roll rudder.

With slight positive "g" you will have all the roll rate you need. It won't be nice and coordinated but who cares?

[Hedley]

You don't need to be pulling G to get roll rate - what
you need is airspeed ie air moving over the ailerons.

In the Pitts, I can roll inverted from level flight, pull
the nose down to pretty much zero G, neutralize,
and I can get lots of roll rate, because I have lots
of airspeed.

[Rockie]

The best roll rate is achieved with zero "g", but for this purpose slight positive is good enough and preferable for other reasons. My point is any light airplane will have more than sufficient roll rate without using rudder to get the job done.

[mcrit]

There actually isn't an autopilot in a 320/330/340/380 series Airbus

OK, were those Airbuses that went apeshit back in the 90's A300s?

[MichaelP]

My point is any light airplane will have more than sufficient roll rate without using rudder to get the job done.

Why does the Cessna 172 come to mind?
It has a very poor roll rate and if it is loaded it's poorer still.

There was one person locally who was criticised for doing aerobatics in a Cessna 172... Heaven help him if something had gone wrong.
Perhaps one of the most important lessons to go with upset training is the discipline to not go out and experiment yourself using your new skills.
Upset training is a good thing, but it is also a bad thing if we do not have the discipline to fly wisely afterwards.

I taught aerobatics for many years in England... I was disappointed when students at the flying school were treated to inappropriate aerobatics by their instructors who I had taught.

We should never practice at someone elses expense without their full approval and in a situation that is appropriate... It's like spinning on a fam flight, OK sometimes but often frightening to the unknowing person who wants to know whether flying is good.

[Rockie]

"Apeshit" is a pretty broad term. Which ones were you referring to specifically.

[Rockie]

It has a very poor roll rate and if it is loaded it's poorer still.

That's why you "unload" to slight positive g. It'll get around without using rudder.

[iflyforpie]

And with excess rudder, you get skid-roll coupling which increases roll rate.

Not too much of a concern in an unloaded light aircraft.

[Shiny Side Up]

I taught aerobatics for many years in England... I was disappointed when students at the flying school were treated to inappropriate aerobatics by their instructors who I had taught.

With great power comes great responsibility MichaelP.

[Blue Side Down]

Just out of curiosity... does anyone out there have firsthand experience, or know someone who has firsthand experience of a true upset situation where by the time things half stabilized, the aircraft was inverted?

Now I don't have much experience all in all, but I've never had an airplane jump upsidedown on me out of the blue... maybe I'm just doing it wrong.

[jamesel]

Yup, towing gliders into wave in a Hawk XP. Day was rough, with the wind at 9000' level (ridge tops out about the same) of 65 -75 Kts. After release, turned for base and managed to descend into the rotor. With full opposing aileron was rolled over to the right at a rate slightly faster then the Hawk could do unassisted with full aileron, pushing forward slightly as I went through 90 degrees. At about 160 - 180 degrees I gave up and went to full left aileron and promptly got spit out of that part of the rotor. Kept her going to upright and went home. Did a very thorough inspection and saw nothing, but later that day the right hand fuel tank started leaking.

Normal people wouldn't be flying in those circumstances.

[Osiris]

...I've never had an airplane jump upsidedown on me out of the blue... maybe I'm just doing it wrong.

I flew recently with an individual in Florida who does upset training for the American Navy and Army. He told me a story about two pilots who came to him for upset training after the autopilot in the Cheyenne they were flying suddenly put them upside down. Not sure if it left them there or brought them back, but somehow they made it upright safely. They were pretty keen on upset training after their experience.

[mcrit]

I'll have to do some googling, but I remember there being some news items about Airbuses do uncommanded manouvers and loosing a ton of altitude back in the 90s some time.

[clllutch]

I went inverted in my schools 172 during stall training, it was quite windy and bumpy and just as the stall warning started blaring (power on stall) my left wing dipped, As far as i know it seemed like a horizontal insipiant spin, i was upside down but i wasted no time at all, in one motion continuing the roll at the same time giving abit of forward stick and killing the power. I came back wings level with a nose down attitude. Never been inverted in real life, but flight simulator had possibly readied me for it. This happened before i had 100hours and during a solo.

[albertdesalvo]

Are you one of the 10 highly skilled and experienced aerobatic pilots in Canada? Statistically, it is doubtful. I can count these people on the fingers of both hands.

You've got 10 fingers? I've only got 8 fingers and 2 thumbs.

There are eleven Snowbirds.