I was looking through sites to see what the requirements were for an ATPL.
This is what I found:
Training Program
Transport Canada does not require a flight test for the ATPL license, only flight experience. There is no theory course for the ATPL, but applicants must complete 3 written exams (covering meteorology, navigation, radio-navigation, air-law, weight and balance, human factors, and Instrument operations).
Practical Experience Requirements:
Pilots must have at least 750 hours of flying experience before writing the exams,
and must have at least 1500 hours of flying experience before receiving their license.
Breakdown of 1500 flying hours:
PIC: 250 hours (may include 100 hours co-pilot)
PIC Cross-country day: 100 hours.
PIC Cross-country night: 25 hours.
Co-pilot cross-country: 250 hours (or additional 100 hours PIC X-C)
Total instrument: 75 hours.
Total night: 100 hours.
My Question:
Does dual flights count? What happens to your dual time which you spended with your instructor?
Was it a waste of money?
_________________________________________________________________________________________________
ATPL
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, Right Seat Captain, lilfssister, North Shore
-
Jastapilot
- Rank 8
- Posts: 832
- Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:42 pm
Re: ATPL
post in "Flight Training" and you'll get more answers. This is more of a flight instructor question. 
-
flygirl123
- Rank 2
- Posts: 52
- Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2009 4:04 pm
ATPL
I was looking through sites to see what the requirements were for an ATPL.
This is what I found:
Training Program
Transport Canada does not require a flight test for the ATPL license, only flight experience. There is no theory course for the ATPL, but applicants must complete 3 written exams (covering meteorology, navigation, radio-navigation, air-law, weight and balance, human factors, and Instrument operations).
Practical Experience Requirements:
Pilots must have at least 750 hours of flying experience before writing the exams,
and must have at least 1500 hours of flying experience before receiving their license.
Breakdown of 1500 flying hours:
PIC: 250 hours (may include 100 hours co-pilot)
PIC Cross-country day: 100 hours.
PIC Cross-country night: 25 hours.
Co-pilot cross-country: 250 hours (or additional 100 hours PIC X-C)
Total instrument: 75 hours.
Total night: 100 hours.
My Question:
Does dual flights count? What happens to your dual time which you spended with your instructor?
Was it a waste of money?
This is what I found:
Training Program
Transport Canada does not require a flight test for the ATPL license, only flight experience. There is no theory course for the ATPL, but applicants must complete 3 written exams (covering meteorology, navigation, radio-navigation, air-law, weight and balance, human factors, and Instrument operations).
Practical Experience Requirements:
Pilots must have at least 750 hours of flying experience before writing the exams,
and must have at least 1500 hours of flying experience before receiving their license.
Breakdown of 1500 flying hours:
PIC: 250 hours (may include 100 hours co-pilot)
PIC Cross-country day: 100 hours.
PIC Cross-country night: 25 hours.
Co-pilot cross-country: 250 hours (or additional 100 hours PIC X-C)
Total instrument: 75 hours.
Total night: 100 hours.
My Question:
Does dual flights count? What happens to your dual time which you spended with your instructor?
Was it a waste of money?
-
flygirl123
- Rank 2
- Posts: 52
- Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2009 4:04 pm
-
flygirl123
- Rank 2
- Posts: 52
- Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2009 4:04 pm
Re: ATPL
No your dual time with your instructor does not go to waste. As long as you meet all the minimums for PIC time, XC, instrument and night time that you listed the rest of the time to make up the 1500 hours can be anything.
-
just curious
- Rank Moderator
- Posts: 3592
- Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 9:29 am
- Location: The Frozen North
- Contact:
Re: ATPL
That's three good questions!Does dual flights count? What happens to your dual time which you spended with your instructor?
Was it a waste of money?
Dual flights count. In fact in the 1500 hour total they count one per one, since the theory is that the entire hour of dual is spent with you learning something every minute.
Co-pilot hours only count as half, since the theory is that a co-pilot isn't learning something valuable every minute. Which is fair enough, since I flew 10 hours yesterday, and ran out of brilliant insights to pass along to my co-pilot around hour three, and didn't have any other real brainwaves till hour 8.
The question of whether the time spent with your instructor should be the focus of your inquiries right now. Proper assignment of studies, proper completion of reading and homework by you, and a joint consensus of how you are to progress will determine whether your time spent together is a waste of time or not. Largely, the answer to that question depends on you right now. Not Transport Canada.
JC
-
Jastapilot
- Rank 8
- Posts: 832
- Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:42 pm
Re: ATPL
regarding dual time? Been years since i hadda think about that so i don't wanna steer you down the wrong path.
-
flygirl123
- Rank 2
- Posts: 52
- Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2009 4:04 pm
Re: ATPL
Thank you for your reply.
Just to be clear:
750hours should be from the list - PIC or Co-pilot time
Co-pilot time is worth 50%- example: 100hrs co-pilot= 50hrs pic under supervision
1500 hours can be from anything after the requirement
such as dual, co-pilot, PIC
Dual time is worth 100% just like the PIC time.
Example: 100hours dual= 100 added to TT
Question:
There are 3 exams you have to write after the flight time is met.
It says there isn't any flight test for an ATPL, is that true?
Just to be clear:
750hours should be from the list - PIC or Co-pilot time
Co-pilot time is worth 50%- example: 100hrs co-pilot= 50hrs pic under supervision
1500 hours can be from anything after the requirement
such as dual, co-pilot, PIC
Dual time is worth 100% just like the PIC time.
Example: 100hours dual= 100 added to TT
Question:
There are 3 exams you have to write after the flight time is met.
It says there isn't any flight test for an ATPL, is that true?
Re: ATPL
These are all valid questions but I think you should worry about getting a private and commercial license before you start thinking about an ATPL...
Spend your time learning the theory and learning how to fly, this stuff will all make sense when it comes time to do it.
Spend your time learning the theory and learning how to fly, this stuff will all make sense when it comes time to do it.
-
flygirl123
- Rank 2
- Posts: 52
- Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2009 4:04 pm
Re: ATPL
deflux wrote:These are all valid questions but I think you should worry about getting a private and commercial license before you start thinking about an ATPL...
Spend your time learning the theory and learning how to fly, this stuff will all make sense when it comes time to do it.
Thank you for the advice.
I am asking this now because I dont want to spend a lot of HOURS($$$$) dual if it's not going to be counted for in the future.
-
flygirl123
- Rank 2
- Posts: 52
- Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2009 4:04 pm
Re: ATPL
Dual counts towards the total time portion and I believe that's it other than the instrument time since the rest is PIC specific or Co Pilot as in F/O. The instrument time can be dual since it's hard to fly under the hood solo, or atleast not very safe 
.
.https://eresonatemedia.com/
https://bambaits.ca/
https://youtube.com/channel/UCWit8N8YCJSvSaiSw5EWWeQ
https://bambaits.ca/
https://youtube.com/channel/UCWit8N8YCJSvSaiSw5EWWeQ
-
flygirl123
- Rank 2
- Posts: 52
- Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2009 4:04 pm
Re: ATPL
Hahaha! Ya, I dont want to be flying instrument solo on a VFR flight.teacher wrote:Dual counts towards the total time portion and I believe that's it other than the instrument time since the rest is PIC specific or Co Pilot as in F/O. The instrument time can be dual since it's hard to fly under the hood solo, or atleast not very safe
Hey, I like your display picture with the sunset and the aircraft
Re: ATPL
Why should you be spending a lot of dual hours anyway?
You need to spend enough dual hours to meet the requirements towards that license/rating, as well as your competency.
There's no such thing as spending too much dual hours unless you're at a school where rip-off's is their motto.
You need to spend enough dual hours to meet the requirements towards that license/rating, as well as your competency.
There's no such thing as spending too much dual hours unless you're at a school where rip-off's is their motto.
-
just curious
- Rank Moderator
- Posts: 3592
- Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 9:29 am
- Location: The Frozen North
- Contact:
Re: ATPL
There are three exams: IATRA for intrument ratings, SARON, and SAMRA for the ATPL. Your Instrument Ride is the flight test, for all intents and purposes for the ATPL.
The dual time will all count, and at this stage it is all necessary. There is an amazing amount of stuff for you to try and absorb, and flying with someone who knows it and has the ability to impart it is critical for you.
However, there is more to be considered for the ATPL that most people (including your instructors) do not tell you. Because the ATPL seems impossibly far away at the beginning, most people don't pay attention to the small ATPL details. They really hold back your obtaining of the ATPL.
I will cut from the excellent Langley Flying School Summary (whose link is : http://www.langleyflyingschool.com/Page ... ncing.html ):
Airline Transport Pilot License
The holder of a Airline Transport Pilot License (ATPL)—the most senior license issue by Transport Canada—may exercise the privileges of Pilot-in-command or Co-pilot of any aircraft engaged in a commercial air service where the aircraft minimum flight crew document requires a minimum flight crew of two pilots—i.e., commuter or airline aircraft.5
Requirements
* An applicant for the ATPL must hold a Group 1 Instrument Rating.
* 70% on the Transport Canada written examinations—two must be written. The first examination (although order of writing is not important) is entitled SAMRA, and it concerns the subjects of Meteorology, Radio Aids to Navigation, and Flight Planning. The second examination is entitled SARON, which concerns Air Law, Aeroplane Operation and General Navigation.6
* 1500 hours flight experience,7 of which 250 hours must be Pilot-in-command (100 of the 250 hours may be as Pilot-in-command under supervision [CAR 421.11]), including 100 hours cross-country flight time (which must include 25 night hours).
* 100 hours night flight time as Pilot-in-command or co-pilot.
* 200 hours cross-country time as co-pilot in a two-crew aeroplane, or an additional 100 hours cross-country time as Pilot-in-command in addition to the above specified.
* 75 hours instrument flight time of which a maximum of 25 hours may be acquired in an approved instrument ground trainer.
The application killers
What the heck does this mean? As a graduate of the standard commercial with an instrument rating, you will have roughly 100 hours of PIC. Get hired as a co-pilot anywhere, and fly for a couple years get enrolled in their PIC under supervision program, and get another 100 hours towards the 250 PIC, and guess what? You're still short 50 hours of PIC. So... you go back to the flying club to rent a 172 for the 50 hours, and you are out of currency, and have to pony up for more dual. Or you are now working 2000 miles from flying club A and have to rent from flying club B which has a 5 hour checkout for their Cessna's.
Or you discover that you have joined a company that likes to shut down at night for maintenance, and don't have night time. Or[ you instruct, and do night circuits, get 100 hours, and discover you only have 2 hours of night cross country, not 25.
The big killer is the co-pilot 50% crediting. You need 1500 hours. OK. but co-pilot counts 50%. So... you graduate with a multi IFR at abut 210 hours. You rent a 150 for the additional 50 hours. Brings you to 260, plus 5 dual for the checkout... 265. Along the way you get initial training on a Kingair and recurrent training twice. You now have maybe 280 towards the ATPL. subtract that from the 1500. You now have 1220 hours to acquire. If you are a co-pilot you now need 2440 hours more for the ATPL. The end result is that the 1500 ATPL is 2720 total time for you.
The Bullet
Get 25 hours night cross-country during your time build-up. Get 150 hours PIC before a co-pilot job.
The dual time will all count, and at this stage it is all necessary. There is an amazing amount of stuff for you to try and absorb, and flying with someone who knows it and has the ability to impart it is critical for you.
However, there is more to be considered for the ATPL that most people (including your instructors) do not tell you. Because the ATPL seems impossibly far away at the beginning, most people don't pay attention to the small ATPL details. They really hold back your obtaining of the ATPL.
I will cut from the excellent Langley Flying School Summary (whose link is : http://www.langleyflyingschool.com/Page ... ncing.html ):
Airline Transport Pilot License
The holder of a Airline Transport Pilot License (ATPL)—the most senior license issue by Transport Canada—may exercise the privileges of Pilot-in-command or Co-pilot of any aircraft engaged in a commercial air service where the aircraft minimum flight crew document requires a minimum flight crew of two pilots—i.e., commuter or airline aircraft.5
Requirements
* An applicant for the ATPL must hold a Group 1 Instrument Rating.
* 70% on the Transport Canada written examinations—two must be written. The first examination (although order of writing is not important) is entitled SAMRA, and it concerns the subjects of Meteorology, Radio Aids to Navigation, and Flight Planning. The second examination is entitled SARON, which concerns Air Law, Aeroplane Operation and General Navigation.6
* 1500 hours flight experience,7 of which 250 hours must be Pilot-in-command (100 of the 250 hours may be as Pilot-in-command under supervision [CAR 421.11]), including 100 hours cross-country flight time (which must include 25 night hours).
* 100 hours night flight time as Pilot-in-command or co-pilot.
* 200 hours cross-country time as co-pilot in a two-crew aeroplane, or an additional 100 hours cross-country time as Pilot-in-command in addition to the above specified.
* 75 hours instrument flight time of which a maximum of 25 hours may be acquired in an approved instrument ground trainer.
The application killers
- 100 hours night, 25 of which must be cross-country
- 250 hours pilot in command 100 of which may be PIC under supervision.
- 75 hours instrument 25 hours of which may be sim.
- Simulator time may be credited towards Instrument requirements, not the 1500 hours.
What the heck does this mean? As a graduate of the standard commercial with an instrument rating, you will have roughly 100 hours of PIC. Get hired as a co-pilot anywhere, and fly for a couple years get enrolled in their PIC under supervision program, and get another 100 hours towards the 250 PIC, and guess what? You're still short 50 hours of PIC. So... you go back to the flying club to rent a 172 for the 50 hours, and you are out of currency, and have to pony up for more dual. Or you are now working 2000 miles from flying club A and have to rent from flying club B which has a 5 hour checkout for their Cessna's.
Or you discover that you have joined a company that likes to shut down at night for maintenance, and don't have night time. Or[ you instruct, and do night circuits, get 100 hours, and discover you only have 2 hours of night cross country, not 25.
The big killer is the co-pilot 50% crediting. You need 1500 hours. OK. but co-pilot counts 50%. So... you graduate with a multi IFR at abut 210 hours. You rent a 150 for the additional 50 hours. Brings you to 260, plus 5 dual for the checkout... 265. Along the way you get initial training on a Kingair and recurrent training twice. You now have maybe 280 towards the ATPL. subtract that from the 1500. You now have 1220 hours to acquire. If you are a co-pilot you now need 2440 hours more for the ATPL. The end result is that the 1500 ATPL is 2720 total time for you.
The Bullet
Get 25 hours night cross-country during your time build-up. Get 150 hours PIC before a co-pilot job.
-
flygirl123
- Rank 2
- Posts: 52
- Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2009 4:04 pm
Re: ATPL
just curious: Wow, thank you SOOOO much for the help.
This will help out for everyone!
This will help out for everyone!
Re: ATPL
Just a small correction to an otherwise excellent post: the IATRA is for type ratings. The INRAT is the instrument rating exam.just curious wrote:There are three exams: IATRA for intrument ratings, SARON, and SAMRA for the ATPL.
Re: ATPL
Good breakdown JC. One other small correction that could be big trouble.
The Night x-ctry requirement is PIC
BTD
Editted to add.
If you can just get the 250 hrs PIC and then you don't have to worry about finding a company that does PIC under supervision.
The Night x-ctry requirement is PIC
BTD
Editted to add.
If you can just get the 250 hrs PIC and then you don't have to worry about finding a company that does PIC under supervision.
-
just curious
- Rank Moderator
- Posts: 3592
- Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 9:29 am
- Location: The Frozen North
- Contact:
Re: ATPL
The PIC under supervision is only for first officers to build PIC. Anyone else actually needs to be in charge of an airplane.
Re: ATPL
When I was doing my CPL I was keenly aware of this because thankfully a few people warned be before hand. I did as much of my cross-country build up time as possible at night, and would suggest the same to others. That and then I taught seven night ratings, so my night requirement was well taken care of when it came time for my ATPL. I've seen a few of my coworkers have to go rent a 172 for 25 hours in order to get that cross-country requirement. Don't fall into the same trap if you can avoid it! Unfortunately some schools don't seem to rent out planes solo at night time.
