GEAR UP LANDINGS

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Will you ever land with the gear up?

Poll ended at Sun Aug 23, 2009 5:26 am

Never!
28
23%
Maybe, but very unlikely.
73
60%
At some point in my career, very likely.
1
1%
Been there, done that already.
5
4%
I don't fly with retractable gear.
15
12%
 
Total votes: 122

AuxBatOn
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by AuxBatOn »

Mrs.Robinson wrote:There was a crash of a big airliner that took off with flaps 0, all dead. Name me a crash have a big airliner that crashed, with all dead on board because of a gear up landing. So pulling numbers out of my a$$ I think it would be more important for tower to confirm flaps are at T/O.

I for one would not want the false sense of security, knowing that tower will always ask me to confirm 3 green. what if I'm at an uncontrolled airport and forget, and I cry, but no told me to confirm gear down. I could make an argument that tower asking for 3 green makes gear ups my likely.
Again, it's just an other layer of safety. It is not a reminder, all the time, for you to lower your gear, but just an other occasion to check the gear. At that point, you should have checked the gear 2 times already (once after lowering it, and once for the pre-landing check).

Again, you may be a god, but normally, I have more trouble keeping a good flow when I'm flying the airplane than when I'm sitting at the button of the runway, waiting for take off.

That "Check gear" thing has been around for decades in the military.
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Mrs.Robinson
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by Mrs.Robinson »

the military does have that check gear thing, and looks at all there gear up compared COMMERCIAL civilian, The hawk, c-17 and that one in bagtown. I just making a guess, but i look like the Miltary has more gear ups per capita versus commercial civilian. So Check gear down must be doing wonders.
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TG
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by TG »

If you skip the name given to this video and all those low IQ comments following it.
It is a Mirage 2000 gear up landing, HUD view.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlaJJXkS3uo

Kind of sad to hear the tone of desperation of his voice (beating himself up) after realizing his mistake.
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x-wind
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by x-wind »

I call three green when I'm cleared. At an uncontrolled I call it on final. It's honestly not automatic, I say&look. I also brief where the gear will go down in the approach brief to myself or my significant other if it's two crew. I was tempted to put never, I know chicks dig confidence, but couldn't do it. I also pick my landing spot out loud MFC.

I learnt this from an old and wise CP.

Everyone remember to tap the brakes on retraction, check pressure coming in?

There's an article in the new ASL for gear maintenance, what are you using to clean your gear?
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Last edited by x-wind on Fri Jul 24, 2009 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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fanspeed
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by fanspeed »

It would be like taking a crap with your pants up. Doesn't happen when I'm sober....and I always fly sober!
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by rigpiggy »

Having been within 2-3" of buying some new props/engines, and having to change trou because of it I added it to my own SOP on short short final, and got shit for it from the training Guru's. I still do it screw'em
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Donald
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by Donald »

TG wrote:If you skip the name given to this video and all those low IQ comments following it.
It is a Mirage 2000 gear up landing, HUD view.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlaJJXkS3uo

Kind of sad to hear the tone of desperation of his voice (beating himself up) after realizing his mistake.
At least he didn't punch out like the guy in YZF, only to watch the plane do a 270 and complete the landing roll.
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AuxBatOn
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by AuxBatOn »

Donald wrote:
TG wrote:If you skip the name given to this video and all those low IQ comments following it.
It is a Mirage 2000 gear up landing, HUD view.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlaJJXkS3uo

Kind of sad to hear the tone of desperation of his voice (beating himself up) after realizing his mistake.
At least he didn't punch out like the guy in YZF, only to watch the plane do a 270 and complete the landing roll.
He didn't land gear up. He departed a runway out of control.

If you have the option, when you are going off the runway at high speed, with no control over the nose, to abandon the aircraft, why wouldn't you?

Here's the accident report:

http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/DFS/re ... 61-eng.asp
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Donald
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by Donald »

I've read the report, poor training + poor planning + lack of proficiency = punching out of a perfectly good airplane that he let get away from himself (and then amusingly enough the airplane did just fine without the "pilot").
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AuxBatOn
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by AuxBatOn »

Poor training?

Poor planning, sure. The tools were lacking.

Poor proficiency, sure.

Why did you bring up this accident when it's about GEAR UP landings?
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Donald
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by Donald »

AuxBatOn wrote:Poor training?
From the report:

The investigation revealed that the aircraft's braking system had also functioned normally, and that the pilot's initial perception of loss of braking was due to a lack of proficiency for landing in less than ideal conditions, as well as a misconception about the normal functioning of the aircraft's anti-skid braking system.

If he didn't understand how the anti-skid system operated for the conditions, that to me is a function of training.
AuxBatOn wrote:Why did you bring up this accident when it's about GEAR UP landings?
It was simply a comment directed at the Mirage example, sorry if the thread drift bothered you.
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AuxBatOn
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by AuxBatOn »

Donald wrote: If he didn't understand how the anti-skid system operated for the conditions, that to me is a function of training.
I don't think there is 1 pilot in the world that knows EVERY single system in the greatest detail. Especially not on something as complex as the Hornet. The guy had 1500 hours on the Hornet. I think it's fair to say that he knew what he was doing.
Donald wrote:
It was simply a comment directed at the Mirage example, sorry if the thread drift bothered you.
I take it as you took the opportunity to take a jab at us.
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Justjohn
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by Justjohn »

Doc got it right and said it well. ... This will never , EVER , happen. Ever.


The responsibility is such that some mistakes are simply unforgivable.

That is all.
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by black hole »

Well: you can always tell when you landed with the gear up; because it takes full power to taxi to the ramp!!!

BH
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Donald
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by Donald »

AuxBatOn wrote:I take it as you took the opportunity to take a jab at us.
True, but I held back on the flight tracker thread, and I couldn't do that twice in a week!
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snoopy
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by snoopy »

I find this concerning: "sometimes when im teaching my students, ill pull the breaker (after the gear is down and i keep my finger on it so i don't forget) to see if they still say '3 green'. almost invariably they still call it out. its a good teaching point."

Over the years I have seen training pilots pull various breakers - stall warning and gear warning included - and then forget to reset them. And more than once I've taken over aircraft where another crew had deliberately disabled those (and other key) circuit breakers as regular practice and when questioned, usually claimed they found the warning horns to be annoying.

:shock:

I know of one recent training accident where the crew landed gear up, and I am convinced this was the cause - that they had likely disabled the one final fail safe that would have saved their ass (and their aircraft) after missing the landing gear in the pre-landing checks.

Unfortunately, we'll likely never know the real statistics on how often this occurs. Its been said that the first thing pilots do after landing gear up is to lower the landing gear handle - if true, I'd imagine they would also punch the CB back in.

Bottom line is: don't disable electrical items, including key safety warning systems, unless the manufacturer provides conditions and instructions for doing so in the flight manual!

Kirsten B.
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flyinthebug
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by flyinthebug »

snoopy wrote:I find this concerning: "sometimes when im teaching my students, ill pull the breaker (after the gear is down and i keep my finger on it so i don't forget) to see if they still say '3 green'. almost invariably they still call it out. its a good teaching point."

Over the years I have seen training pilots pull various breakers - stall warning and gear warning included - and then forget to reset them. And more than once I've taken over aircraft where another crew had deliberately disabled those (and other key) circuit breakers as regular practice and when questioned, usually claimed they found the warning horns to be annoying.

:shock:

I know of one recent training accident where the crew landed gear up, and I am convinced this was the cause - that they had likely disabled the one final fail safe that would have saved their ass (and their aircraft) after missing the landing gear in the pre-landing checks.

Unfortunately, we'll likely never know the real statistics on how often this occurs. Its been said that the first thing pilots do after landing gear up is to lower the landing gear handle - if true, I'd imagine they would also punch the CB back in.

Bottom line is: don't disable electrical items, including key safety warning systems, unless the manufacturer provides conditions and instructions for doing so in the flight manual!

Kirsten B.
I dont always agree with you snoopy but this one is right on! We had a similiar situation at our FTU and almost resulted in tragedy.


That said, I always called "with the gear" on final.Its not a bad habit to get into!

Fly safe all!
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Doc
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by Doc »

The way I read it, twice as many of you believe that someday, some way, for some reason, on some dark night, after a long duty day, bagged out with fatigue, this could happen to you!
That's because, you are willing to blame other factors. Not willing to take the "blame" on your own shoulders. Where it belongs.
I've had duty days as long as any of you. I guarantee it. I've had airplanes break down as often as any of you. I guarantee it. I've salvaged bad approaches. I've got as many single engine hours in twins than probably any of you. But, I will put the gear down. Every time. I think it's sad, that some you think, that maybe you wont.
If you "think this could happen" to you......it could.
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by JigglyBus »

Doc,

You've stated your opinion on topics like this for years, and we all get it, your sh1t don't stink.

It doesn't really matter which 'error' we are talking about, there are generally two types of people, those who think that humans are susceptible to error and are extra careful to look out for it and mitigate the risk, and those who think they are invulnerable and they could never make a mistake.

The most dangerous people that I've ever met, in any profession, or lack there of, always thought they were invulnerable, and I meet a lot of people these days who used to think they were.
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Sidebar
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by Sidebar »

Doc wrote:The way I read it, twice as many of you believe that someday, some way, for some reason, on some dark night, after a long duty day, bagged out with fatigue, this could happen to you!
No Doc. I don't "believe" it could happen to me. I know it could happen to me. I don't think it will, but I don't deny that it could.

I respect your confidence in your abilities. I'm also surprised there's so many others who share it.

I also respect whoever it was who checked off "Been there, done that" for their honesty.
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Doc
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by Doc »

Sidebar wrote:No Doc. I don't "believe" it could happen to me. I know it could happen to me. I don't think it will, but I don't deny that it could.

I respect your confidence in your abilities. I'm also surprised there's so many others who share it.

I also respect whoever it was who checked off "Been there, done that" for their honesty.
It has nothing to do with abilities. It's all about knowing one's self. I know myself well enough to know, I won't do that.
The ones who frighten me are the ones who, as you say, "know" it could happen to them.
I know everybody's pissed at me for being unforgiving of folks who have major brain farts....I can live with that, if it gets the point across.
Just having the mind set, that it could happen to you, opens the door for it to actually happen.
I am, however regretting the use of the word "moron". I should have referred to it as the "act of a moron", or a "moronic act"?

And, JigglyBus....no need to regress from your usual lady like replies. You can count on me to harp, every time I see something happen in this industry that should embarrass everyone involved.
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by Sidebar »

Doc wrote:The ones who frighten me are the ones who, as you say, "know" it could happen to them.
I guess I frighten you then.

I think we'll have to agree that we disagree on this. The ones who frighten me are the ones who, as you say, know it will never happen to them.
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Doc
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by Doc »

The beer's on me, Sidebar. Cheers. :smt040
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by 2R »

You will know when you have landed gear up,it takes full power to taxi to the fuel pumps :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by Tim »

Donald wrote: Doesn't seem very smart to intentionally pull C/B's, after you've already seen what a distraction can do.

There is a reason in the ACP manual, it states that examiners are NOT to pull breakers when simulating emergencies.

Why not instead teach the student or modify your SOP's so that when confirming gear/flap selections, one has to POINT at the indicator? That would hopefully eliminate the rote response.
in the case of the distraction, it was an emergency. in normal flight im not concerned with that. as i said i keep my finger on the breaker. i dont move it until it's popped back in. if i get busy i put it back in and debrief afterwards.

if looking at the gear and saying 3 green with the gear up can happen, what makes you think pointing at it will be any different.

edited to add: i do it AFTER the gear is down and locked. pulling the breaker at that point only disables the 3 green and the ability of the gear to be retracted.
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