Anyone know of a list of smaller aircraft (less than...say...50000lbs) that are considered 2 crew by TC? Looked up and down their site and came up with nothing.
Thanks
2 Crew machines
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eep...2 Green
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eep...2 Green
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maxofthenorth
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A lot of pilots (and others) always get airplanes and the rules under which they fly mixed up. A two pilot airplane is a two pilot airplane, first and foremost, if the manufacturer says it is, period. Now, the manufacturer is bound by the certification rules which states that any airplane certified as a Transport Category Airplane ( USA FAR 25 or CARS 525) has a minimum of two pilots, or 3 pilots, or 12 pilots, whatever, depending on how the questions in the certification process are answered. That means that any airplane with a max take-off weight in excess of 12,500 lbs or a turbojet are two pilot airplanes.
In Canada, any airplane, FAR 23 Normal category - CARS 523 (Small) multi or single airplane, flown for hire and reward, must be crewed by two pilots unless an Operations Specification has been granted to allow single pilot operations. I do not know for a fact but if Embraer Bandit was never certified with an auto-pilot. If not, it must be flown by two pilots, however if Embraer or someone else obtained an STC for an autopilot, walla- single pilot.
Now things get interesting, the Beech 200 was hampered by certification limitations. Live with a Max take-off weight of 12,500 or certify as a FAR 25 airplane. Same for the Metro 2 and others. Too expensive. Lobbying the FAA, manufacturers convinced the regulators to increase the weight limit and the feds did. First as a "prototype" standard called sFAR41, and then from the lessons learned, FAR 23 CC. Commuter Category. Up to 19000 lbs and/or 19 seats, excluding crew. Hence the Beech King Air 300, Metro 3, J32 and Beech 1900C.
The Beech 1900/ J31/ SA227 are flown as a two pilot airplane because you require a flight attendant/ cabin safety person after 9 passengers and a co-pilot will work cheaper than a F.A/autopilot combo so most of those airplanes are built without an autopilot. The F.O is the autopilot - voice activated!!!!
That is why they allowed females on the space shuttle - lighter than a dishwasher!!
The Beech 350 is a single-pilot airplane but here in Canada, too many restrictions for commercial operators, so the voice activated autopilot thing. Except that most King Airs come off the factory floor with an autopilt, much like a Buick always has air conditioning.
Ed Swearingen is attempting to certify his new jet to FAR 23 CC which will put it in the single-pilot category. In the USA, the second pilot under FAR 91 or 135 does not have to be type rated so most airplanes are built with the idea that all the brains are in the left seat so the right seat pilot does not have the same flight instruments etc. The Dash 8 is usually a FAR 25 airplane operated under FAR 121 so those airplanes have almost identical cockpts, left and right.
Some Russian jets are so mechanically complex they require 2 pilots and up to 4 flight engineers.
Airbus and Boeing were able to automate so many systems and reduce the pilot workload that they were able to eliminate the fright engineer.
All depends on how the manufacturer wants to build his airplane.
Hope this answers some questions
In Canada, any airplane, FAR 23 Normal category - CARS 523 (Small) multi or single airplane, flown for hire and reward, must be crewed by two pilots unless an Operations Specification has been granted to allow single pilot operations. I do not know for a fact but if Embraer Bandit was never certified with an auto-pilot. If not, it must be flown by two pilots, however if Embraer or someone else obtained an STC for an autopilot, walla- single pilot.
Now things get interesting, the Beech 200 was hampered by certification limitations. Live with a Max take-off weight of 12,500 or certify as a FAR 25 airplane. Same for the Metro 2 and others. Too expensive. Lobbying the FAA, manufacturers convinced the regulators to increase the weight limit and the feds did. First as a "prototype" standard called sFAR41, and then from the lessons learned, FAR 23 CC. Commuter Category. Up to 19000 lbs and/or 19 seats, excluding crew. Hence the Beech King Air 300, Metro 3, J32 and Beech 1900C.
The Beech 1900/ J31/ SA227 are flown as a two pilot airplane because you require a flight attendant/ cabin safety person after 9 passengers and a co-pilot will work cheaper than a F.A/autopilot combo so most of those airplanes are built without an autopilot. The F.O is the autopilot - voice activated!!!!
That is why they allowed females on the space shuttle - lighter than a dishwasher!!
The Beech 350 is a single-pilot airplane but here in Canada, too many restrictions for commercial operators, so the voice activated autopilot thing. Except that most King Airs come off the factory floor with an autopilt, much like a Buick always has air conditioning.
Ed Swearingen is attempting to certify his new jet to FAR 23 CC which will put it in the single-pilot category. In the USA, the second pilot under FAR 91 or 135 does not have to be type rated so most airplanes are built with the idea that all the brains are in the left seat so the right seat pilot does not have the same flight instruments etc. The Dash 8 is usually a FAR 25 airplane operated under FAR 121 so those airplanes have almost identical cockpts, left and right.
Some Russian jets are so mechanically complex they require 2 pilots and up to 4 flight engineers.
Airbus and Boeing were able to automate so many systems and reduce the pilot workload that they were able to eliminate the fright engineer.
All depends on how the manufacturer wants to build his airplane.
Hope this answers some questions
The average pilot, despite the somewhat swaggering exterior, is very much capable of such feelings as love, affection, intimacy and caring.
These feelings just don't involve anyone else.
These feelings just don't involve anyone else.
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switchflicker
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Good description Oldtimer
Here's my two cents
The Banderante Type Certificate stipulates 1 pilot VFR and 2 for night or IFR. Passenger count not considered. This is unusual.
The Metro/Merlin family Type Certificate says minimum crew 1 pilot unless 2 required by operating rule. The operating rule in Canada would be CAR 702, 703 or 704. These regulations say among other things that if the passenger count is greater than 9 the crew composition must include another pilot or a cabin attendant. Like Oldtimer says a Co-Joe is cheaper than a Bun Gunner. The operating rule also says that if the flight is to be IFR with passengers, the minimum crew is to be 2, unless authorized by way of an Operating Specificition (sp). This is where the Bandit differs. Bandit says IFR (no pax stipulation)
By the way Oldtimer, never heard of the First O as a voice activated auto-pilot. Very good. I always thought F/O was abreviation for Flap Operator
Here's my two cents
The Banderante Type Certificate stipulates 1 pilot VFR and 2 for night or IFR. Passenger count not considered. This is unusual.
The Metro/Merlin family Type Certificate says minimum crew 1 pilot unless 2 required by operating rule. The operating rule in Canada would be CAR 702, 703 or 704. These regulations say among other things that if the passenger count is greater than 9 the crew composition must include another pilot or a cabin attendant. Like Oldtimer says a Co-Joe is cheaper than a Bun Gunner. The operating rule also says that if the flight is to be IFR with passengers, the minimum crew is to be 2, unless authorized by way of an Operating Specificition (sp). This is where the Bandit differs. Bandit says IFR (no pax stipulation)
By the way Oldtimer, never heard of the First O as a voice activated auto-pilot. Very good. I always thought F/O was abreviation for Flap Operator
"I'd rather have it and not need than to need it and not have it" Capt. Augustus McCrae.
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eep...2 Green
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I_Drive_Planes
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Just out of curiosity, if you were to own and operate an aircraft listed by TC as 2 crew privately, could you fly it single crew? If not, is it possible to add some equipment (i.e. autopilot etc.) and have its category changed?
It is one of my lottery winning pipedreams to buy a DeHavilland Caribou and fly about the countryside, however much to my chagrin, I see it is listed as 2 crew by TC.
It is one of my lottery winning pipedreams to buy a DeHavilland Caribou and fly about the countryside, however much to my chagrin, I see it is listed as 2 crew by TC.
Hey Planes
It's my understanding that if you own a two crew aircraft but don't use it in a commercial operation, you can do whatever you freakin' want. Even if you are a commercial operator and you are just moving the plane about "non-revenue" I know there is some leniency there as far as the normal requirements are concerned. However, Transport being as fickle as they are, will probably give you a sideways look and a slap on the ass if they see you doing it too much. Of course that depends on their mood at the time...Bunch of manics.
There it is again 2 green! Thanks for keeping me entertained!
It's my understanding that if you own a two crew aircraft but don't use it in a commercial operation, you can do whatever you freakin' want. Even if you are a commercial operator and you are just moving the plane about "non-revenue" I know there is some leniency there as far as the normal requirements are concerned. However, Transport being as fickle as they are, will probably give you a sideways look and a slap on the ass if they see you doing it too much. Of course that depends on their mood at the time...Bunch of manics.
There it is again 2 green! Thanks for keeping me entertained!
If it says 2 crew then legally 2 type rated pilots are required to operate the aircraft regardless of how you are running it…….private or commercial.I_Drive_Planes wrote:Just out of curiosity, if you were to own and operate an aircraft listed by TC as 2 crew privately, could you fly it single crew? If not, is it possible to add some equipment (i.e. autopilot etc.) and have its category changed?
It is one of my lottery winning pipedreams to buy a DeHavilland Caribou and fly about the countryside, however much to my chagrin, I see it is listed as 2 crew by TC.
As for the Caribou if you want to carry your buddies then a operating certificate is required be it CAR’s 604 or one of the CAR’s 700’s.
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I_Drive_Planes
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The Old Fogducker
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Skipper:
If the guys that designed and built the airplane say it needs two pilots, it needs two pilots regardless of whether it is flown in commercial or private service.
That was an excellent description of the situation by Oldtimer. It should almost be made into a "sticky" at the top of the page, as the question is asked frequently.
Time for me to return to ducking the fog for awhile! Oh .... I think I see a cannine now!
Regards,
Fog
If the guys that designed and built the airplane say it needs two pilots, it needs two pilots regardless of whether it is flown in commercial or private service.
That was an excellent description of the situation by Oldtimer. It should almost be made into a "sticky" at the top of the page, as the question is asked frequently.
Time for me to return to ducking the fog for awhile! Oh .... I think I see a cannine now!
Regards,
Fog
I think we're both right
I know something like the EMB-110 is a two crew bird as both pilots do a PPC on it, and at least require and ATPL/IATRA to crew it, however, the Captain can take the thing solo if it's day VFR and nine or less (less than nine? gotta love the CARS!) That's in a commercial operation, so I would imagine the same goes for private
I know something like the EMB-110 is a two crew bird as both pilots do a PPC on it, and at least require and ATPL/IATRA to crew it, however, the Captain can take the thing solo if it's day VFR and nine or less (less than nine? gotta love the CARS!) That's in a commercial operation, so I would imagine the same goes for private
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therubberjungle
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As far as I know the Bandit was never certified for single pilot IFR operation in Canada. An F/O is way more useful and ultimately cheaper than maintaining old autopilots, or so it was explained to me.
One pilot is okay for day VFR provided there are not more than nine pax.
One pilot is okay for day VFR provided there are not more than nine pax.
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therubberjungle
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