Continental Flt 3407 Crash at Buffalo/Niagra Intr'nal

[2.5milefinal]

Airplanes with deicing boots no longer have a place in commercial aviation.

The only people/pilots that make statements like this are pilot/pilots who do not know how that equipment works and how and when to use it.

[Pratt X 3]

Please tell me the guy that wrote this is just a reporter? I'd understand then. If a pilot wrote this, he needs more groundschool.

Arthur Alan Wolk is the founding partner of The Wolk Law Firm in Philadelphia. For more than 35 years, The Wolk Law Firm has concentrated its practice in the area of aviation law, with Arthur personally generating verdicts and settlements of nearly $1 billion during the last decade alone. He is known for obtaining and on appeal, holding, the largest verdicts for each type of air accident claim in recent aviation history.
As a result of his seasoned courtroom skills, aviation industry savvy and technical aircraft knowledge, Arthur has been named to the steering committees of every major airline disaster in which The Wolk Law Firm has represented victims.
Arthur's personal aviation experience is extensive as well. He has been a pilot for more than 30 years and holds the Federal Aviation Administration's highest pilot's certificate - Airline Transport Pilot (ATP) - for multi-engine land and sea aircraft, and single-engine land and sea airplanes. He is also one of a handful of pilots holding a Letter of Authorization for the F9F-2 Panther jet fighter. Arthur has thousands of hours of flight experience and has also flown in air shows throughout the country. He was selected for the Flight of the Grumman Cats as Cat 5 in recognition of his flying skill, a position he held for 11 years. The FAA consistently conferred a low level aerobatic and formation air show waiver based on Arthur's performance as a pilot.

Found here: http://www.airlaw.com/attorneys.htm

[Four1oh]

Figures.

[Snagmaster E]

Yeah well pilots, not lawyers, know that you can't maintain level flight with gear, flaps, and power at or near flight idle, but what the hell do I know?

Sure, that 777 must go to flight idle in cruise, along with the 172 on a cross-country. Even balloons need to give a shot of heat every now and then.

[Canoehead]

Please tell me the guy that wrote this is just a reporter? I'd understand then. If a pilot wrote this, he needs more groundschool.

Arthur Alan Wolk is the founding partner of The Wolk Law Firm in Philadelphia. For more than 35 years, The Wolk Law Firm has concentrated its practice in the area of aviation law, with Arthur personally generating verdicts and settlements of nearly $1 billion during the last decade alone. He is known for obtaining and on appeal, holding, the largest verdicts for each type of air accident claim in recent aviation history.
As a result of his seasoned courtroom skills, aviation industry savvy and technical aircraft knowledge, Arthur has been named to the steering committees of every major airline disaster in which The Wolk Law Firm has represented victims.
Arthur's personal aviation experience is extensive as well. He has been a pilot for more than 30 years and holds the Federal Aviation Administration's highest pilot's certificate - Airline Transport Pilot (ATP) - for multi-engine land and sea aircraft, and single-engine land and sea airplanes. He is also one of a handful of pilots holding a Letter of Authorization for the F9F-2 Panther jet fighter. Arthur has thousands of hours of flight experience and has also flown in air shows throughout the country. He was selected for the Flight of the Grumman Cats as Cat 5 in recognition of his flying skill, a position he held for 11 years. The FAA consistently conferred a low level aerobatic and formation air show waiver based on Arthur's performance as a pilot.

Found here: http://www.airlaw.com/attorneys.htm

I wouldn't trust this dork with my lawnmower.

Mr. Wolk and Mr. Hall should go into business together. Why make two law-firms look incompetent?

Ambulance chasing at its utmost.

[fortis risk]

This is the same guy who has been using propaganda to damage the reputation of the Caravan. He has launched a smear campaign against the aircraft to help his class action suit against cessna. His propaganda has been so prolific that pilots have often repeated it to others not realizing they do this leaches bidding.

[Canoehead]

From the same thread on the AEF site.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/04/nyreg ... ml?_r=1&hp


Interesting read...

[Rudy]

111 pages? Damn, I haven't said that much to my copilot in the last 2 years.
It's kind of ghouly for this stuff to be public.

[MrWings]

It's kind of ghouly for this stuff to be public.

Agreed.

Cannot the public trust the accident investigation report instead of being privy to all the private details? Do we get access to the autopsy photos next?

[Sidebar]

We're already part-way there, after a court challenge successfully brought the release of the ATC transcripts for the Morningstar crash in Wpg several years ago.

I don't think that's correct. I was here during that, and while there were quotes from the ATC freqs published in the papers, it was sourced from some website or someone with a scanner. I'm pretty sure it wasn't from a transcript released by NavCan or TSB under any sort of court order.

[Widow]

Morningstar - in 2005? Would it even have made it's way through a court process of disclosure yet??

A precendent for release of transcripts of ATC recordings here in Canada was made after the mid-air over Pentiction in August 1999. Info here: http://www.infocom.gc.ca/reports/sectio ... tionId=207

Alternatively, it may be the Canadian Press' battle through Supreme Court for access to the CVR recordings (not transcripts) of the SwissAir 111 crash, which they won in 2007 (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/05/ ... -tape.html), that cpl_atc is thinking of.

As the family member of the deceased, I would want access to recordings and transcripts. I'm not sure that I'd want every Tom, Dick and Harry having them, but once something has been released through Access to Information it is public to anyone who cares to ask. As a family member, if the only way to have access is to give everyone access ... well, so be it.

[canwhitewolf]

dltd

[tesox2]

Over the years, I've found the transcripts to have great educational value for both pilots and ATC, and I would support having Canadian CVR transcripts released.

The difference is, ATC transcripts record only hotline, landline and frequency transmissions...I think you'd be singing a different tune if our sector conversations were recorded and publicized. I think CVR recording do not need to be made public, I fail to see the educational value of hearing and reading the private conversation between pilots.

[Old fella]

Morningstar - in 2005? Would it even have made it's way through a court process of disclosure yet??

A precendent for release of transcripts of ATC recordings here in Canada was made after the mid-air over Pentiction in August 1999. Info here: http://www.infocom.gc.ca/reports/sectio ... tionId=207

Alternatively, it may be the Canadian Press' battle through Supreme Court for access to the CVR recordings (not transcripts) of the SwissAir 111 crash, which they won in 2007 (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/05/ ... -tape.html), that cpl_atc is thinking of.

As the family member of the deceased, I would want access to recordings and transcripts. I'm not sure that I'd want every Tom, Dick and Harry having them, but once something has been released through Access to Information it is public to anyone who cares to ask. As a family member, if the only way to have access is to give everyone access ... well, so be it.

Well......... here you are: listen to this and turn up your volume just after the impact with the other helicopter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTIijI32vA0

[Siddley Hawker]

It's kind of ghouly for this stuff to be public.

Agreed. It's a pity the same capability to eavesdrop on lawmakers and politicians while they go about their business doesn't exist.

[Donald]

Further, the vast majority of accidents develop during final descent and/or takeoff, when you're supposed to have a sterile cockpit to begin with. If a crew member is caught discussing the last time he pounded his wife somewhere in the 30 minute CVR loop, well, that's their problem. It's not like they're not aware that they're being recorded.

The CVR you posted a couple days ago from the Colgan crash is just over an hour long. So with the new ones recording 2 hours now (I think, maybe more?), should we just have a sterile cockpit all day long?

[Rudy]

....should we just have a sterile cockpit all day long?

That seems to be the only option to protect your privacy in the event of your death. Also written transcription doesn't allow the reader to hear the tone of voice being used. People say awful things but with a sarcastic tone that totally changes the meaning. You can't explain or defend what you said if your dead. It won't hurt you, it will hurt your family. Imagine the last memory they have is of you discussing the apple-like qualities of the behind of the waitress from Denny's that morning.

[OntheNumbers]

I was reading some letters to the editor on Avweb this morning. One letter was from someone who had just read the 110-odd pages of the transcript of the cockpit voice recorder and made an observation about some comments near the end of the transcript. The writer raises the question that maybe the CP changed the flap setting in the wrong direction. Avweb thought it was worth posting this letter, so it seems appropriate to reproduce the thoughts here, although I'm no Q400 expert either.

Colgan Questions Linger

I read all 111 pages of the Cockpit Voice Recorder report cited in the AVweb report, of which 108 pages were about company policies, etc. However, one thing got my attention that I have not heard before, and I wondered if it could be significant and would love to hear from a Q400 expert.

On Page 109, flaps five is requested and selected. On Page 110, gear down is requested and confirmed. Then flaps 15 is requested but not confirmed (only "uhh" from the copilot), immediately followed by the stickshaker. The next communication from the copilot, 10 seconds later, was "I put the flaps up," followed eight seconds later by "should the gear up?"

My question (or thought) is the captain never commanded flaps up. Would the copilot have made that decision while the stall warning was going off, or is it possible or likely that she actually put the flaps up to zero instead of down to 15 when commanded, just before the shaker went off? Could a change from flaps 5 to flaps 0 put the aircraft close to stall, considering the ice build-up? I would love to hear a professional comment on this possibility.

[_dwj_]

I was reading some letters to the editor on Avweb this morning. One letter was from someone who had just read the 110-odd pages of the transcript of the cockpit voice recorder and made an observation about some comments near the end of the transcript. The writer raises the question that maybe the CP changed the flap setting in the wrong direction. Avweb thought it was worth posting this letter, so it seems appropriate to reproduce the thoughts here, although I'm no Q400 expert either.

No, that didn't happen:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxywEE1kK6I

As you can see, she did bring the flaps down (to 10), and then she put them back up again when the stick pusher started.