Petition for "College of Professional Pilots"?

[Hot Fuel]

I'll assume you are referring to me, its not that I don't give a damn I'm simply trying to point out that the mob mentality isn't a sure fire solution. The links attached above demonstrate that these "colleges" or "associations" set out the standards by which the members agree to abide by, not the employer. They don't dictaite to the employer under what conditions they work by, if anything they work with the employer to bring about change. My point is they don't jump over the employers and go direct to the goverment in an effort to force change in their industry.

[CAPP]

Hot Fuel,

You cannot force employers to be thoughtful to employees. Some are, some aren't. As to the reasons why, who knows, lots of reasons.

By creating an Association or College you reduce the number of entrants into the employment field, as well as other improvements, so if an employer treats employees poorly, no problem, there are lots of employers who treat employees better, because there isn't a huge glut of employees like there is now and will be for the foreseeable future at the going rate.

Employers are not stupid, (for the most part) ( If they are stupid, why are we working for them?) they will see that there is a going rate for pilots and all boats rise with the tide. If they cannot find a replacement pilot when they lose plots then they will see the light.

The bad employers will tend to get weeded out and aviation safety etc. will be improved.

AS one person pointed out in another thread, if Colgan had charged 1 dollar more per passenger, that crew would have been able to afford to live close to their base.

It's a no-brainer
Vote early and often!

[Widow]

My point is they don't jump over the employers and go direct to the goverment in an effort to force change in their industry.

The government allows for a consultation process. Right now, there is far more representation for the operators than for the pilots. The pilots stand to lose a lot more, and should have greater representation ... Those just getting their start need this representation the most. A "College", or association, should act as a go-between and a buffer, between the operator and the government.

It looks like the maintenance folk are going this route too ... viewtopic.php?f=27&t=56536

I'm liking the numbers showing in the poll.

[Hot Fuel]

Exactly…it’s a process that needs to involve all the stakeholders. Just to be clear I’m not opposed to such an organization. I’m only opposed if it takes the shape of a militant organization that feels its mandate is to operate strictly as a self interest pilot group swinging what it sees’s as the big hammer.

I’m only interested if its goal is to bring about meaningful change to the industry as a whole. That includes ownership, non flying positions etc…the whole picture. The pilot group is only one piece of the aviation puzzle, arguably an important part but none the less its just one part. In my twenty plus years of working in this industry the one constant has been the me attitude displayed by the vast majority of pilots.

CRM teaches us that everybody involved in a flight holds a link of the accident chain in there hand…so if this is all about safety why exclude them? Do you really think you (pilots) are the only ones working long hours, get paid less than you think you should or work a schedule that is less than ideal?

[Widow]

CRM notwithstanding, how often is an operator held accountable for "allowing" a pilot out the door with non-functioning (required) equipment in below minimum weather, as opposed to the pilot being held accountable alone? Who arrives at the scene of every accident - no matter where the "underlying cause" may lie?

The people I'm aware of who are working on one effort or another, all have the entire industry at heart. But as the last line of defence, and the one who is ultimately left "holding the bag", the ultimate "mission" of a College would have to hold the pilot first and foremost. They should both be treated professionally, and held to act professionally.

[Iris]

There is a snowballs chance in hell that the government will wade into that pool and strike legislation that outlines pay scales, scheduling or hiring practices.

Maybe I missed something there. That is exactly what the Canada Labour Code (aka Government) is supposed to do.

I'm looking forward to seeing the website. I support any organization that will give voice to new to the industry pilots.

[Hot Fuel]

I've looked over the publication and I can't find even one published pay scale for any particular position, aviation or otherwise, perhaps you can post a link to the list of pay scales that are mandated by the CLC? The same goes for scheduling, can't find any particular wording that says I get 10 consecutive days off per month. And I sure as hell can't find anything about who, how and when my employer can hire new employees.

If it's there in black and white it will put and end to this thread and the "college" in a heartbeat.

[Hot Fuel]

Widow you raise a fair and valid concern, however I think the failure to hold those accountable responsible falls on the shoulders of the TSB and then the regulator. If the TSB is doing its job the final report contains conclusions as to the reasons for the accident...when they contain findings relating to company culture, failure of persons within the company to provide appropriate supervision etc etc the regulator should be stepping up to the plate and holding the accountable person(s) "accountable".

Sounds simple doesn’t it? But I think that is the key...If you make a decision or have a role in events that lead to an accident you should fully expect to be held accountable for your actions. For whatever reasons our industry doesn’t have the stomach to pursue that avenue with any level of consistency.

If one knew for sure they would have to face the music for their actions perhaps they might think twice before they acted?

[snaproll20]

I am disturbed by the repeated reference to "limiting the number of pilots."

Just who is this College that it can tell people they cannot train for a commercial licence and then seek employment?
It is a too obvious and easy ploy to solve supply and demand and benefits only those pilots already "In".

We see this at major airlines doing the union thing. It is always the top dogs who get the gravy, even if it means the airline will lay off the newer pilots on the payroll if a strike happens. This disinterest in their colleagues' welfare and elitism that some airline pilots put out is one reason to doubt this initiative will take hold. Suppose the College had limited the number of "approved and employable" pilots just before the huge hiring boom of the past few years? The result would have been to totally restrict airline expansion plans. The only solution would have been the cadet program and boy, would there have been some yelling and screaming at that!!!

What are the credentials for joining? Does my membership mean I am qualified and worthy of the job? If a company I am employed at is deemed an inappropriate place to work, do I have to leave and become unemployed?

[Widow]

Try Part III of the Labour Code for Hours and Wages, etc. http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/showdoc/cs ... III-gb:l_I

Aviation is one of those industries that falls under special regulation/exemptions due to it's federal jurisdiction. This rather complicates matters. But these are the Aviation Occupational Health and Safety Regulations, the CLC being the enabling statute: http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/L-2/SOR-87-182/index.html

That is why it is currently groups like ALPA who lobby for updated standards on behalf of pilots. See this thread: viewtopic.php?f=54&t=52107

I would agree with you, Hot Fuel, with regard to the TSB, except that apportioning blame is not their job. Yes, the TSB should be examining all serious accidents for all links in the chain - in conjunction with TC, so that they can do their jobs in a timely manner as well. But as evidenced by the accident that took my husband, that does not always happen. Besides, the TSB holds no cards over TC - they can make a recommendation a million times, that doesn't mean TC - "in consultation with industry" - will carry it through.

Here's an example of something that totally irked me.

Prairie & Northern Dec 29, 2000 A.A. 7.3 1C 365 days licence suspension

A pilot made over 600 false and misleading entries in his pilot logbook to inflate his multi-engine aircraft hours, in some cases in aircraft he hadn’t flown. The individual was sanctioned with a 365 days licence suspension.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/stand ... /apr09.htm

What would a "College" have done with this person?

Snaproll, I don't know the answers to your questions - at least, not accurately enough to speak for those who are working on this. No one has said anything specifically to me about limiting the number of pilots, although this being a natural result would seem possible.

The idea would be, that if working a s a pilot in Canada, you would have to be a member. I shouldn't think you could be kicked out for working for shoddy operator; for saying "yes" when you shouldn't - perhaps.

[Sidebar]

I'm liking the numbers showing in the poll.

I wouldn't read too much into these numbers. So far, you've got an informal poll of 88 people out of the hundreds trolling a website loaded with rumour and speculation, with 71% of them saying they'd sign a petition. There's thousands of pilots out there. Will they respond with the same proportion to a scientific poll with a question supported by a well defined "College" proposal ?

[Hot Fuel]

Widow as you have already pointed out aviation falls into another realm...my point being even part 111 does not lay out pay scales that employees can hold a company too. i.e a beaver pilot shall be paid XXXX dollars in year one, year two, a A330 co-pilot shall be paid XXXX.

AOHS dosen't lay out any specifics either...and as far as AOHS goes...SMS will swallow it up in time. Its being viewed as redundant, SMS is to be all encompassing.

[CanadianEh]

Establishing ONE government funded Flight Academy is the solution; cause then there's no competition and during low supply/demand times, the government funds the academy.

That makes lots of sense actually, kinda like what NavCanada does with ATC.

[Sidebar]

Establishing ONE government funded Flight Academy is the solution; cause then there's no competition and during low supply/demand times, the government funds the academy.

That makes lots of sense actually, kinda like what NavCanada does with ATC.

This makes no sense whatsoever. I come back to my earlier point:

The government doesn't fund anything, taxpayers do. All government does is decide how much the taxpayers are going to pay and where its going. This is socialism at its worst. The government already wastes too many of our tax dollars!

[Widow]

Will they respond with the same proportion to a scientific poll with a question supported by a well defined "College" proposal ?

There may be only one way to really find out Sidebar! Until a "group" has come forward with a well-defined proposal, there is no point in actually starting a petition. But, if at least one of these groups is already working with existing unions and associations, they may already have a good idea of the answer. On the other hand, as I've stated numerous times, it isn't those who are already "covered" that need this most.

AOHS dosen't lay out any specifics either...and as far as AOHS goes...SMS will swallow it up in time. Its being viewed as redundant, SMS is to be all encompassing.

And that would be why a "College" might go a long way to help ensure the right to a safe workplace is protected - despite SMS and/or a lack of effective AOHS regs.

[xsbank]

I really can't see a downside to this. However, arguing about points that haven't even really been considered seems foolish at this point but I still think the college is a good idea.

Look at how Contrail has affected the industry in places where it is applied. That is a regional thing and yet it has been accepted and has far-reaching consequences.

Once the 'college' is established it can apply standards of excellence for access. In Europe, the ATP has 14 exams and the candidates pay for each one - I'm not saying that money should be the deciding factor here but making prospective members pass some sort of knowledge level will go some way to limiting the supply of pilots. Just like the bar exam or the boards for doctors or the CA exams for accountants.

If the college has the 'best' pilots in it then new non-certified pilots would eventually be unemployable. College wages for instructors, guys with lots of experience who are interested in training would also be a limiting factor, ie an ATPL required to hold a class 4, the cost of getting in now goes way up, the level of the graduates improves, maybe only schools like Selkirk can do training?

I like the idea - 'Professional Pilot' would finally mean something.

[loopy]

Should we start a new forum dedicated to info and discussion around this topic? Updates from widow and others, and links to any website about this and related issues?

[invertedattitude]

I really think this is a GREAT idea for professional pilots in this country.

Don't stop pushing for it either, it will require a LOT of work.

[N181CS]

The only downside I can see in this is if this Association goes the way of the CSPA, trying to flex its muscle all the time making things very difficult for all involved.

[Spokes]

Establishing ONE government funded Flight Academy is the solution; cause then there's no competition and during low supply/demand times, the government funds the academy.

That makes lots of sense actually, kinda like what NavCanada does with ATC.

Sure, as if a CPL isn't expensive enough, you want to increase the cost by having to live out at some 'college' somewhere. All those people who are working at a job to pay for this will have to quit to go to this 'school'. Not to mention this will devestate all the FTU's currently operating.

I agree with one of the comments above. This whole pie in the sky scheme sounds to me like elitism. Limiting the number of CPL? you gotta be joking. We live in a free market society. Like it or not, you chose a vocation that lots of others like to be in. Proper reserch would have told you what the pay is like. If you don't like it, do something else. Closing the door behind you once you are 'in' is not the answer.

[swervin]

The College is proceeding already. At the last Jazz ALPA meeting they mentioned that the first meeting of the College of Professional pilots had taken place just recently (probably May or so). I'm not sure who's all involved but I assume all the Canadian ALPA groups are involved as well as the Westjet Pilots and ACPA.

[yvanddivans]

About 5-6 years ago I tried with a couple of guys to start one such association, although in a completely different field. We tried to unified some individual groups together and provide them with support, insurances, ressources, etc.

We finally failed to complete our mission and our small association died, so I know that what you're trying to accomplish, although theorically beneficial and all happy-dancing-unicorns, is an Himalaya of work and not necessarily bound to success. Surely it's been tried before and I could not even begin to understand why it did not succeed then, I hope you can safely identify it and fail to repeat the same mistakes that must have been done in the past.

Nonetheless you do have my support and best wishes.

-Jean.

[Widow]

Indeed, swervin, it is already proceeding. Folks will be hearing more and more about it in the coming months, all the sooner if they already belong to a large union/association.

yvanddivans, you may feel comforted in knowing that this effort has already gone far further than any other effort ever has - and the wheel is picking up momentum.

[Four1oh]

Spokes, I'm not going to argue with you. You are totally in left field and need to READ the thread.

[CAPP]

About 5-6 years ago I tried with a couple of guys to start one such association, although in a completely different field. We tried to unified some individual groups together and provide them with support, insurances, ressources, etc.

We finally failed to complete our mission and our small association died, so I know that what you're trying to accomplish, although theorically beneficial and all happy-dancing-unicorns, is an Himalaya of work and not necessarily bound to success. Surely it's been tried before and I could not even begin to understand why it did not succeed then, I hope you can safely identify it and fail to repeat the same mistakes that must have been done in the past.

Nonetheless you do have my support and best wishes.

-Jean.

yvanddivans,

Your expertise in the field (having tried and learned the first time) puts you in position of being able to help those behind you who are doing the same. So might I be so bold as to suggest that you volunteer to help out in the quest for the college.

With all the speculation of how new pilot training, licensing, etc. will be handled, be aware that any College is just a joining together of people to discuss and come up with solutions. There are are a lot of things that need to be discussed and decided. Cooler heads will prevail and any and all opinions will be part of the mix. The main thing is that the goal is to create a safer, better workplace for professional pilots.

As far as businesses going under, that is all speculation. We don't have a large buggy whip industry any more either. The world moves ahead, we all evolve. I would rather see one large government subsidized pilot school than the collection of smaller ones that we have now. Try to become an accountant or Doctor part time.