Class C - No Radar

[GottaFly]

Just a question from a pilot to controller. At a primarily VFR airport such as CYNJ, how do they get away with calling it Class "C" airspace when at some points in the CZ, there is no radar coverage @ circuit height (1000'MSL) and a CZ cap @ 1900'MSL?

[spacecadet]

Class C was thrust on the lower mainland towers by Navcanada in an effort to make the congested airspace safer (as Class C means functioning transponders are mandatory so the radar will "see" more traffic giving controllers a more accurate view of the traffic in their zone). Unfortunately this change in class of airspace did not factor in many of the lower mainlands "blank" spots on the radar. eg CYNJ east side of zone. However, there are future plans for multi-lateration throughout the lower mainland which is currently being tested at YHC. The plan is for multi-lateration to accurately display traffic in these blank spots, however it is a costly project with much tweaking to be done...I'm sure the YNJ controllers too would love to be able to see traffic in the east side of their zone so they can justify being Class C...

[NJ]

Class C service does not require the use of radar. As airport controller's our primary job is to visually spot traffic out the window. A tower may have a dedicated radar position, but all other positions (tower, ground, etc) it's to look out the window (in a 3 NM control zone in YNJ's case. Not big). The main advantage is being able to give o'clock style traffic information to aircraft.

CARs defines the services (801.02) to be provided in Class D airspace as
Traffic information
Separation between IFR aircraft and all aircraft during runway operations
That's it

For Class C, we provide:
Conflict resolution between VFR and IFR aircraft
Conflict resolution between VFR aircraft on request
Traffic Information
Separation between IFR aircraft and all aircraft during runway operations

Pilots flying in the zone should be happy as they get more service and less liability flying through these control zones. If it's busy in my class D airport, I'll fall back to my runway separation and controlling the circuit, but other aircraft who call 15 back will be told about pertinent traffic then I'll give them their control instructions once they're in or about to enter my traffic circuit.

We have another fairly busy aerodrome in our CZ. I'll get the direction of landing from them, they'll get pertinent traffic. When it's busy, that's it. If I have time (95% of the time I do), and it warrants it, a control instruction will be given for the other aerodrome.

[Old Dog Flying]

If looking out the window is part of the job...a big part when I was controlling...why then are all of the local Class "C" towers using radar to control the circuit????

[NJ]

They're asking for it then. Radar has lags, dead spots, false targets, coasting targets, swapping targets. We have radar on site and down to the ground, but it is not a useful tool at all for the circuit.

I'd hate to be the airport controller watching his circuit on radar, and monitoring a coasting target who appears to continue downwind where the real aircraft has turned base and cut off traffic on final.

[bigfssguy]

I once had a controller friend ask me how we did traffic without radar! Look out the window, your eyes are the most important reliable tool!

[Old Dog Flying]

They're asking for it then. Radar has lags, dead spots, false targets, coasting targets, swapping targets. We have radar on site and down to the ground, but it is not a useful tool at all for the circuit.

I'd hate to be the airport controller watching his circuit on radar, and monitoring a coasting target who appears to continue downwind where the real aircraft has turned base and cut off traffic on final.

I've used the Mark One Eyeball as primary for circuit traffic most of my working life but then watched a newby rely solely on the display to control the circuit. Three times in one hour, I watched this newly licenced "controller" instruct someone to line up on the runway and wait...with another aircraft on short final. The radar did not display traffic below 300 feet and the aircraft on short final was forced to overshoot...three times in an hour.

I walked out after the "expert" informed me that she knew as much about ATC as I did! After a lifetime in ATC I walked out and never went back and as a pilot with nearly 60 years experience, I am now very cautious of anything that I'm instructed to do after this display of professionalism...And nothing was done by the local manager when it was brought to his attention as I walked out.

[fliplip]

why then are all of the local Class "C" towers using radar to control the circuit????

I dont know about you, but it sure makes me feel alot better when I'm flying into London in a B737 to know Tower is monitoring my flight path with respect to a bunch of people in 172's buzzing around just learning how to fly. Face it, in the daytime nobody can see a white Katana 5 miles from the airport, 3 miles away.. maybe. Bottom line is for me I'm glad they control circuit traffic in terms of providing my flight adequate spacing.