Petition for "College of Professional Pilots"?

[Cat Driver]

I agree with this 100%. Pilots need an orginization to stand up with them

The 703 704 sector of aviation always has needed an association that is run by the people who actually do the work.

The difference between the old days and now is you have the internet to communicate with.

I'm betting that it will eventually happen.

Pilots need an orginization to stand up with them

Pilots are only a small part of the work force in aviation, I personally feel that mechanics really do not receive the recognition and pay they deserve.

I also am of the opinion that mechanics have a more difficult job and need to have far more training and knowledge that a pilot.

[CAPP]

Well said Widow and Cat!

Cat,
I remember when the maintenance folks set up the AME Association probably about 22 24 years ago. I flew some of the people to one of the first meetings, so I tagged along. I was mightily impressed at what they had accomplished with schooling standards and schools being set up for instance and TC being advised on issues by a collective voice of the actual people who do the work and saddened that my segment of the workplace, the pilots had not done the same. So this is our kick at the cat, er ah, nothing personal... : )

Rubberbiscuit,
I cannot speak for anyone, but my suspicion is that the association is very carefully preparing the groundwork as there are many segments and affected persons in our industry such as; airlines of various sizes, charter, instructors, survey, corporate, government, Police, banner towers, parachute droppers, business owners, etc.

Each person affected sees the world from their own perspective as they live and die by what they are regulated into. All the affected persons want their issues brought forward and then there is the government and the public to be brought in on the formula. So as a consequence, it only makes sense that everything proceed very slowly by crossing the Ts and dotting the Is before taking anything public. Anything good takes time.

So my suggestion is to.... and I mean this in the nicest kind of way..... : )

"Don't ask what your college can do for you,
Ask what you can do for your college"

What talents can you loan to the group?

As Widow so beautifully put it;

I'm sure the "College" and any other initiative will make their "goals" public once they have completed laying the groundwork and are ready to "go public". Some people prefer to be a part of the laying of groundwork, and others prefer to wait until it is laid. Considering the number of times such initiatives (of the professional association variety) have tried and failed, I cannot help but think the more people involved at the beginning stages, the more likelihood of them "getting it right" such that it will not fail.

[Widow]

And don't forget to include all the people who work in aviation in your association.

Especially us mechanics.

I remember listening in to the SCOTIC hearings, and hearing Paul Carson (TCCA Inspector) ideas for a Professional Association. I also met and spoke at length with him this past spring, the first time I visited Ottawa. This is exactly what he foresaw.

Pilots need a nationwide self-governing, self-regulating professional association to which all professional pilots--and I mean those flying for hire or reward--must belong. In view of the changes presently occurring in the aviation industry with the introduction of SMS--a form of what I like to call “supervised” self-government and self-regulation for the air operator industry--they need it to provide a pilot input to balance company management, government regulators, and clients in the dynamic bargaining process that determines the industry environment. They need it to provide them with real whistle-blowing protection, since they will be the ones under SMS who really know what will be going on in the future, in my opinion. They need it to set standards for technical education required for the various types of aviation jobs, from entry-level commercial pilot to captain of high-performance passenger-carrying jet. They need it to ensure they receive the proper ongoing education to enable them to do each job with confidence and competence as they progress through their careers. Ethics will be taught and examined.

When I first wrote this paper, I talked only about pilots, since I am a pilot, but I would now extend the same concept to licensed maintenance engineers and certificated dispatchers.

[square]

I am disturbed by the repeated reference to "limiting the number of pilots."

Just who is this College that it can tell people they cannot train for a commercial licence and then seek employment?

I'm still working my way through this thread, but I thought I should comment on this. Because you've got a valid complaint there and I agree it's not ideal. Just looking at my graduating class though, which is from years ago, and the number of people who actually ended up with a flying job.. this kind of limit on licences would be doing potential students a favour. So many people shell out so much cash only to fail and move on.

And many others who "make it" just can't support themselves or their families and live under absolutely lousy conditions. How long do you think you could survive making 19 thousand dollars a year? What would that do to your personal life? Seriously, I'd like people to answer that question.

Limiting the access wouldn't deny anyone the right to fly, it would just make it more difficult and weed out the many pilots I've met that have no business operating an aircraft they don't bother to respect, who are unable to complete the missions the aircraft can do, for companies they misrepresent, transporting passengers whose safety they compromise.

Filtering some out would be doing a favour to the passengers and pilots that deserve it anyway. And it would take some of the pressure to sacrifice what we want & need off of those pilots who are already in the thick of the problems in this business.

[square]

That is why it is currently groups like ALPA who lobby for updated standards on behalf of pilots. See this thread: viewtopic.php?f=54&t=52107

If ALPA's already doing this and TC has an anonymous reporting system and unions are the ones fighting for better wages for pilots.. remind me again what niche this CAPP is supposed to be filling? It seems like a good intention with really no clear mission to achieve or special interests to bring to attention. I'm not for or against the idea yet, for just that reason.. I don't understand what it's purpose is. This needs to be very clearly determined and spelled out before you start rivalling established agencies for support.

[square]

Oh yeah, and if you plan on posting people to certain jobs ... well, anticipate an unruly fight on who gets twins, IFR jobs, PIC, turbines, jets, glass, floats, high-paid bush jobs, etc. Seniority bids would I guess be the obvious choice, but anticipate what happens when the guy with the highest seniority gets rejected by insurance companies for not having enough MPIC or glass time because you sent him to fly at Single Bush Air Service while he only wanted to fly for the airlines.

This isn't a dig but just a heads-up.

['effin hippie]

Square, the only doctors who are compelled into certain postings are foreign doctors who are emigrating to Canada and wish to practice medicine in Canada.
In effect they trade a few years in Ilse-a-la-Crosse or where-the-F-ever in exchange for residency/citizenship and a Canadian medical license.
This occurs precisely because Canadian doctors are not compelled to go anywhere, and not enough go to rural and remote regions to meet the needs.

I have been trying to pick holes in this idea and I can't find many. A college that set safety standards and booted out members who violated them would make it easier for pilots to say no. I don't think it would have a large impact, but it couldn't hurt.

Restricting the supply would also work great for me, since I'm already in; and it would raise wages over time, no question.
Let's not lose sight of that: The central point of this exercise is some (preferably transparent and fair) method of limiting the number of professional pilots in this country. If it doesn't do that, no one is going to give a shit long-term, and the whole thing will be just one more acronym with no more usefulness than the Human Rights Tribunal.

ef

[Widow]

That is why it is currently groups like ALPA who lobby for updated standards on behalf of pilots. See this thread: viewtopic.php?f=54&t=52107

If ALPA's already doing this and TC has an anonymous reporting system and unions are the ones fighting for better wages for pilots.. remind me again what niche this CAPP is supposed to be filling?

And how effective has ALPA been all on their lonesome advocating this way?
And how effective is TC's "anonymous reporting system" (*cough*)?

Don't confuse what an association/college can do with what unions do.

As I've said before, I'm sure those actually involved in the initiative(s) well let us (you) know when their i's are dotted and their t's are crossed. All in due time.

I started this thread out of curiosity - what does the support for the intiative look like? I still think it's looking pretty good, despite the low number of voters compared to viewers.

[Prairie Chicken]

Curt Lewis sent out this notice. Sounds like the Americans have been able to form an association. I don't know anything about this group, but it may be worth having a look at.

Coalition of Airline Pilots Associations
2009 National Safety Conference
"Leadership and Safety - The Command Perspective"
October 26-28, 2009
Renaissance Dallas Hotel
Dallas, Texas
Join the members of the CAPA Safety Council for a unique opportunity to experience world class speakers and training during our annual conference.
Meet the leadership and committee members for the pilot associations representing over 28,000 senior commercial aviators as well as highly sought after experts in leadership, safety analysis, safety culture, and human factors.

The Coalition of Airline Pilots Associations is a trade association representing more than 30,000 pilots from nine leading commercial air carriers including American Airlines, Southwest Airlines, UPS, US Airways, NetJets, ABX Air, Atlas Air, Polar Air Cargo and Kalitta Air. CAPA is committed to addressing issues of aviation safety, security and regulation that affect its members and the traveling public.
For additional information, please contact 202-756-2956.

If you have any difficulities with this site, please contact the APA Webmaster

[Widow]

What?! All those people belong to more than one union/professional association? Will wonders never cease!

By the looks of their website though, it appears they've been around for a dozen years or so. http://www.capapilots.org/capa_history.asp

[RobZombie]

Where do I start with this................

While this “idea” has great potential, it must be handled in a way that makes it work for everyone, not just Pilots. It has to make sense for the operators too, I’m not talking about the big ones but the little guy flying a 172 on floats on minnow runs to fishing lodges and what not.

Some one suggested limiting the licenses available to increases wages, hey man it’s simple supply and demand, right?? Well what happens when the increase in wages causes the thin margin the minnow guy is making to plummet, well also a simple fix, increase the rates to the customer, right?
Well the customer says pound sand I’ll do it myself, now we got CPL with no job what happens to him?
Off to the gulag?

What would limiting the licenses do other than this?
Oh right would make it easier for you find work, Sweet now I don’t have to move to BFNW lake and live for 5 years, sweet I can start everyday at the airport down the road and live in Moms basement.

What happens when my kid turns 18 and wants to get licensed, the board or whatever says hey you know what, we’re in the middle of a downturn right now try back in 7 years. That’s BS, this is a free country and free enterprise dictates what people get paid and how many people are needed. Christ maybe I need the freeman’s web address!!

The European approach won’t work here; they don’t have pile of communities living in isolation for half the year where everything from groceries to fuel has to be flown in. That makes us different.

If this thing gets going great, but from some of the post I’ve read here, I can’t help but feel we need real experienced aviators at the top here representing the interests of all affected.

Would I support it, absolutely if it’s done right and it aims to do the right thing.
Safety is our number one job, you can never and I mean never have enough layers of protection built in to cover that.

My vision for this concept would be an association that can effectively lobby on behalf of pilots, for real changes in the industry, like duty reg reform and against those shady fucks who’ll try to push the greenhorn out the door with enough gas to almost get there and 20% over gross.

We gotta be realistic about our goals and how we view ourselves as well, I dunno about you guys but if the industry came completely off the rails tomorrow, I wouldn’t need a tie to go to my next job.

I have met one of the guys who claimed to be involved with this at the top level and I believed him, and I can say that if he writes this stuff, It will be done right the first time!

To pay for this I suggest 1% of the pilot’s wage per year for the first 5 years then .5% there after. Yes for some that adds up, but professional association dues are tax deductible.

In closing, I would like to say that I don’t think it should be about making life easier for people to get that first job, It should be about making that first, second, third, fourth job safer!!

RZ

P.S. there’s probably a shit load of grammar and spelling mistakes in here but please keep in mind that before I began a flying for a living I was fork lift operator.

[Brewguy]

That's why the more I think about it, the more I like the idea of a voluntary professional designation. The designation could be obtained by anyone who meets the requirements (i.e. can be a CPL or ATPL), but would otherwise be voluntary. Nothing would prevent you from holding the license without the designation.

The professional designation would be an add-on to a license; but licensing as such would remain the same as it is now. It would then be up to the individual operator, whether or not they would require someone with a designation to hold a position or not.

Back to my previous example of a warehouse. Company "A" may hire anyone to drive a fork lift and do order picking in their warehouse. But Company "B" may specify that to become a supervisor or manager, you need the CPIM designation. The company may have even written this into their policy manuals in order to meet industrial standards (ISO 9001:2000, etc).

So with a 'Professional Pilots" designation, one operator may decide all pilots need it to work for them. Others may decide to require it only for captains, not FOs. Some may require it for certain positions (training captains, chief pilot, etc); while other operators may not require it at all. It would be up to individual pilots whether or not obtaining the designation is necessary / worth while for their own career aspirations.

[Widow]

Neil, think about this for a moment. How likely is it that the "shady" operators would want a "professional pilot" if there was an option? Isn't it fairly well understood that it is these "shady" operators from whom pilots most require protection?

If we could convince everyone who hires/contracts an operator that this was essential to safety, it would be one thing - but they're out to save a buck too!

[Brewguy]

Those are valid points for sure; but here's the thing...
Canada will never stray too far from the US on these types of things (of course, we often have slight differences in order to have an air of superiority over them); And there is no way in hell that Americans would buy into this sort of scheme.

Do you really think that a guy who has the money to get a commercial or ATPL, and who desperately wants it, would allow a 3rd party (non governmental organization) to say "no, you can't get that license ... we have more applicants who want the training than the quota allows".

Fight the fights you can win. If you want something like this to fly (no pun intended) then I wholeheartedly believe the voluntary designation is the route to go. Have the pilots buy-in to the idea that if they want the good jobs, they need to go out (on their own time and at their own expense) and do this thing.

So even though they're marking time working for that "shady" operator, they (the pilots) are actively working towards their professional designation. And such a pilot would be more likely to blow the whistle on the shady guys, and or stand up for their rights (yes, even if it means getting fired by the 'shady' guy). If they think / know its something they need to do to get that airline job, even just to get past the initial weeding out of applicants, they'll do it.

[Widow]

I'd really like to know what the official source is for all this talk of the CPPC initiative limiting the number of CPL's through some kind of quota system, as opposed to reduced numbers being a natural outcome of the association. I certainly haven't heard any evidence of this.

[Brewguy]

A number of people have made reference to the college of physicians & surgeons as a model; and that is one of their key methods of 'control' over their profession. Limiting supply to demand.

[Widow]

I think the people who have made reference, have made reference as an example of a "College". I don't think they are necessarily involved in what is actually happening, or meant it as being a model of how this College would work.

I am not a part of the process. But I do have contact with those involved, and I can initiate contact for those who wish to be involved. Pilots from all areas and sectors are being included, and I trust that those involved know what they are doing, and know the industry far better than I.

[Sidebar]

I'd really like to know what the official source is for all this talk of the CPPC initiative limiting the number of CPL's through some kind of quota system, as opposed to reduced numbers being a natural outcome of the association. I certainly haven't heard any evidence of this.

There is no official source. It's wishful thinking on the part of those who are constantly whining about their miserable lot in life, hoping that by introducing a quota system, they can somehow better themselves.

I suggest that the limiting factor in how many doctors there are is the high standard they need to meet, not any artificial quota. There is incredible competition for medical school slots. I think comparing pilot training to medical school and follow-on training is ridiculous and completely invalid.

[Cat Driver]

I think comparing pilot training to medical school and follow-on training is ridiculous and completely invalid.

The comparison is not only invalid it is ridiculous.

You only need to know how to read and write and do simple math to be a pilot.

[Widow]

Yet both doctors and pilots may hold people's lives in their hands. People whose occupations require work that people's lives may depend on should be held to a higher ethical standard.

[jeta1]

comment removed - time expired

[Rubberbiscuit]

I agree. Comapring a Pilots to Doctors is not realistic for many reasons. To be a doctor requires many years of hard studying and dedication and you'd be lucky to enter the work force by 25. A dotor would have had to graduate from High School with a very high average to have a shot at med school. A Pilot (kid with enough money from somewhere) can time it right and do his CPL flight test the day he turns 18, and I have worked with 18 year olds. Most of them lacked in the maturity department for starters. So make it a requirement to hold at least a "Frozen ATPL" to be eligeble to join the College and make the minimum age 21 to hold this license. I agree that a pilot has a lot of responsibility, and "have lives in his hands" while at work, but so does busdrivers, ferry captains, and the hobo running the rollercoaster at the local fair. If the goal is to have Canadian CPL & ATPL Pilots held to a higher standard make it more difficult to obtain your license. Adopt JAA Standards from Europe with 14 exams, which by the way entitles you to a frozen ATPL. The sheer volume of stuff you are required to know alone would weed out anyone without dedication or enough enthusiasm.

Good luck restricting number of licenses in Canada. It is a country built on free enterprise, and would like to see it stay that way. To me the solution is obvious. Make it much harder to obtain a commercial (frozen ATPL) license.

[teacher]

Agreed

[CAPP]

...speaking of ethical standards...

BTW vote early and often on the petition at the top of this thread. It's around 45% now.

Tsk Tsk Tsk... Vote often? You mean... "cheat" and cast more than one vote per person? Is that the standards of morals for this new College? Great start. This may start to resemble American Idol with multiple personal votes.

I voted once.

No.

And I wont vote twice.

Twas a joke. You can't vote more than once.

I was incorrect. So far it's 72% fer and 10% agin. 149 votes

[Sidebar]

You can't vote more than once.

Are you sure?

Take a look and see how many people with only 1 post have commented on this forum and others. Logical conclusion is that at least some of them have created a new user name for that 1 post. I'd say it's likely the same thing has happened with this poll.

It's entirely possible some people voted more than once.