Ferry Flt
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Ferry Flt
Anybody here with any experiance in Ferrying Light Twin from canada to Europe and from Europe to Asia?
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kevinsky18
- Rank 5
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- Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 10:01 am
Re: Ferry Flt
I did an Atlantic crossing in a 182 15 years ago. It was very unnearving but all went well in the end. Lots of weather to deal with.
If you're going to Asian have you looked at flying west? A much shorter hop across the water from Alaska to Russia. 100LL fuel may be harder to come by though.
Order up "Turtle Pack Ferry Tanks" as a much cheaper way to extend your range verses having custome tanks made.
If you're going to Asian have you looked at flying west? A much shorter hop across the water from Alaska to Russia. 100LL fuel may be harder to come by though.
Order up "Turtle Pack Ferry Tanks" as a much cheaper way to extend your range verses having custome tanks made.
Re: Ferry Flt
Tx,Yes we are planning Ferrying Seneca to Asia and will be taking Goosebay-Greenland-France-UAE as route.Any suggestions would be appreciated..Tx
Re: Ferry Flt
Hey there
I did an Atlantic crossing in a medium (though non-pressurized and fairly slow) twin turbine in June from West Africa to Canada (via Spain/France/Scotland/Iceland/Greenland/Iqaluit.)
A couple of points -- based SOLELY on my experience, so don't sue me if it's a little different!
Weather will be your biggest issue over the North Atlantic especially if you plan on doing this in later fall/winter. Don't push it. Wait for a good day. Seriously. Be open to options. Sometimes the Goose to Southern Greenland route is the best, sometimes Iqaluit to Sondrestromm (which also has the advantage of being fairly short) is the best... IFR minimums are VERY high at most airports, Sondrestromm (BGSF) is the lowest... 500 or 600' AGL? Can't remember exactly. Greenland also "closes" on Sundays. If you'd like the airport open, be prepared to pay... your fee will cover the overtime of the controllers, CFR, etc.
Once you get out of Canada and into Europe, you'll pay for FBO services... they file your flight plan, marshall you, etc, but it will be a fee on top of your fuel bill. That's just the way it is there.
Reykjavik is "the" place to stop in Iceland... BIRK Air Services (http://www.birk.is) is a great little FBO/handler. Hotel (unless it is busy) is right next to the FBO, and if not, they'll book you somewhere in town and give you taxi and hotel vouchers so you don't have to worry about converting currency (the vouchers aren't free, you'll just pay them in addition to your fuel/handling charges with your credit card when you leave!) Iceland's pretty pricy. Check on Insurance requirements for your aircraft here... We always need to show proof of extra insurance to the folks there, and have it faxed ahead (not sure if this is a requirement for all flights, we're a little "special" - but something to double check.
Glasgow is a great stop in Scotland. We used Signature (tiny little non-descript shack) who got us turned around really quickly. We called ahead to all places, but most already know you're coming as they keep tabs on the inboud IFR traffic. Some pilots in my company have used Cambridge as a stop and they say it's good, however, avoid Luton like the plague.
France: It may be a little out of your way, but Bordeaux is a great fuel stop. The folks at Air Assistance got us turned around really quickly. Again, we called ahead, but I don't think it would have mattered if we did or not.
Most important is be flexible... Carry an International Acu-Qwik book with you so if you change your destination you can ensure there's an FBO there to take care of you. Take along a satellite phone and a GSM blackberry. Invaluable.
I can't help you with the Middle East/Asia route, but if it's anything like Africa where credit cards are as good as monopoly money, take a wad of US and Euro cash - in small bills - with you. I'd also recommend a service like UAS (UNited Aviation Services) to plan your overflight and landing permits, as well as handling and fuel (especially with you guys requiring 100LL) in your Middle East and Asia stops. It's WELL worth the money... (again, if it's anything like Africa, you could wait days for fuel and permits if you do it yourself, as opposed to getting it all prearranged.) Also, I would strongly suggest that you take a white pilot shirt (or flight suit) and wear epaullets as you get into the Middle East/Asia areas, and if you don't have company Air Crew ID, see if you can get your hands on something that you can clip to your pocket. Sounds a little silly, but it'll "prove" you're a pilot on sight, without having to haul out your license, etc. Makes going thru security a lot easier.
Hope this helps!
I did an Atlantic crossing in a medium (though non-pressurized and fairly slow) twin turbine in June from West Africa to Canada (via Spain/France/Scotland/Iceland/Greenland/Iqaluit.)
A couple of points -- based SOLELY on my experience, so don't sue me if it's a little different!
Weather will be your biggest issue over the North Atlantic especially if you plan on doing this in later fall/winter. Don't push it. Wait for a good day. Seriously. Be open to options. Sometimes the Goose to Southern Greenland route is the best, sometimes Iqaluit to Sondrestromm (which also has the advantage of being fairly short) is the best... IFR minimums are VERY high at most airports, Sondrestromm (BGSF) is the lowest... 500 or 600' AGL? Can't remember exactly. Greenland also "closes" on Sundays. If you'd like the airport open, be prepared to pay... your fee will cover the overtime of the controllers, CFR, etc.
Once you get out of Canada and into Europe, you'll pay for FBO services... they file your flight plan, marshall you, etc, but it will be a fee on top of your fuel bill. That's just the way it is there.
Reykjavik is "the" place to stop in Iceland... BIRK Air Services (http://www.birk.is) is a great little FBO/handler. Hotel (unless it is busy) is right next to the FBO, and if not, they'll book you somewhere in town and give you taxi and hotel vouchers so you don't have to worry about converting currency (the vouchers aren't free, you'll just pay them in addition to your fuel/handling charges with your credit card when you leave!) Iceland's pretty pricy. Check on Insurance requirements for your aircraft here... We always need to show proof of extra insurance to the folks there, and have it faxed ahead (not sure if this is a requirement for all flights, we're a little "special" - but something to double check.
Glasgow is a great stop in Scotland. We used Signature (tiny little non-descript shack) who got us turned around really quickly. We called ahead to all places, but most already know you're coming as they keep tabs on the inboud IFR traffic. Some pilots in my company have used Cambridge as a stop and they say it's good, however, avoid Luton like the plague.
France: It may be a little out of your way, but Bordeaux is a great fuel stop. The folks at Air Assistance got us turned around really quickly. Again, we called ahead, but I don't think it would have mattered if we did or not.
Most important is be flexible... Carry an International Acu-Qwik book with you so if you change your destination you can ensure there's an FBO there to take care of you. Take along a satellite phone and a GSM blackberry. Invaluable.
I can't help you with the Middle East/Asia route, but if it's anything like Africa where credit cards are as good as monopoly money, take a wad of US and Euro cash - in small bills - with you. I'd also recommend a service like UAS (UNited Aviation Services) to plan your overflight and landing permits, as well as handling and fuel (especially with you guys requiring 100LL) in your Middle East and Asia stops. It's WELL worth the money... (again, if it's anything like Africa, you could wait days for fuel and permits if you do it yourself, as opposed to getting it all prearranged.) Also, I would strongly suggest that you take a white pilot shirt (or flight suit) and wear epaullets as you get into the Middle East/Asia areas, and if you don't have company Air Crew ID, see if you can get your hands on something that you can clip to your pocket. Sounds a little silly, but it'll "prove" you're a pilot on sight, without having to haul out your license, etc. Makes going thru security a lot easier.
Hope this helps!
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Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Re: Ferry Flt
Chipmunks advise is great.
I would highlight the North Atlantic weather as your biggest concern...
Remember if you get stuck in Greenland or Iceland it will be very expensive...but you will be alive and not missing because of bad weather.
Also this is very important...
I would highlight the North Atlantic weather as your biggest concern...
Remember if you get stuck in Greenland or Iceland it will be very expensive...but you will be alive and not missing because of bad weather.
Also this is very important...
Having done it both with and without one of these companies getting everything set up in advance the money spent on such a service is well spent.I'd also recommend a service like UAS (UNited Aviation Services) to plan your overflight and landing permits, as well as handling and fuel
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Ferry Flt
Great Info Chipmunk,Cat,Tx...All points noted.Where can i find International Acu-Qwik book in Toronto? May be at Aviation World? Like that idea to wear Uniform through immigrations... 
We are going with Skyplan Services.Will be paying US$ 1170 for ground handlling at Le Bourget, Paris for two planes!!
,$5075 for 100ll at Narassarssuaq,Greenland and $1990 for Eurocontrol.These are the highest along the route.Everywhere else divide them by 3!!!!
Looks like going to happen in mid Sept...Any clue about weather this time of year in north atlantic???
I think i should start working out daily for good fitness enroute.8 hrs of flying daily for 8 goodday...The pillow gonna hate my axx
Thanks guys...
We are going with Skyplan Services.Will be paying US$ 1170 for ground handlling at Le Bourget, Paris for two planes!!
,$5075 for 100ll at Narassarssuaq,Greenland and $1990 for Eurocontrol.These are the highest along the route.Everywhere else divide them by 3!!!!Looks like going to happen in mid Sept...Any clue about weather this time of year in north atlantic???
I think i should start working out daily for good fitness enroute.8 hrs of flying daily for 8 goodday...The pillow gonna hate my axx
Thanks guys...
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Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Re: Ferry Flt
If you wear your gold bars in the whore houses in South America you can get a real good reduction in the charges. 
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Ferry Flt
We stopped in keflavik and birmingham... as for the middle east, whereabouts exactly are you going? Quite well treated in Luxor egypt, not so much in muscat oman... I hear the UAE is good...
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PanEuropean
- Rank 5
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- Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 3:03 pm
- Location: Toronto, Canada
Re: Ferry Flt
I've done the Canada to Europe and also Europe to Asia routes before, moving Twin Otters, although I have never done both in one go (not sure I would want to... might take a while).
Chipmunk gave you a lot of good advice in his post. I really seriously encourage you to contract with a handling company (e.g. Universal or similar) to look after all your flight plans, weather, overflight permits, fuel, ground handling, hotels, etc. This kind of service is not cheap, it might cost you a few thousand, but if you try to do a flight of that length without a handler, you are just going to wind up spending the same few thousand on extra 'undesirable' expenses, so you won't save any money, but you will increase your workload a heck of a lot.
The trick to keeping costs down on ferry flights is to keep moving. You can get by without a handling agent in most first-world airports, but as soon as you get into lesser developed countries, your progress will bog right down without a handler. The big companies (Universal and others) have corresponding agents or contacts in just about every rat-hole of the world, and these folks are employed on the understanding that they will keep life trouble-free for the crew of the aircraft they are handling. So, although the local contact can't do anything about your landing fee or nav fee, they can make darn sure your small aircraft with a crew of two is not met by a 100 passenger bus to transport you over the 50 feet from your parking spot to the terminal building - a bus that you then have to pay $400 for, or else you don't get to leave that airport. Along a similar line, they will minimize problems and delays with the local officials (customs, health, airworthiness, etc.).
If you have not done so already, make sure that both pilots have Yellow Fever vaccinations. You can only get this vaccination from a limited number of locations in Canada. There is a waiting period of about 10 days between getting the vaccination and the vaccination being effective. You will get a very official looking little yellow card to show to officials in third world countries to prove that you have the vaccination. If you don't have the card, the official will expect a substantial bribe before allowing you to pass through.
Michael
Chipmunk gave you a lot of good advice in his post. I really seriously encourage you to contract with a handling company (e.g. Universal or similar) to look after all your flight plans, weather, overflight permits, fuel, ground handling, hotels, etc. This kind of service is not cheap, it might cost you a few thousand, but if you try to do a flight of that length without a handler, you are just going to wind up spending the same few thousand on extra 'undesirable' expenses, so you won't save any money, but you will increase your workload a heck of a lot.
The trick to keeping costs down on ferry flights is to keep moving. You can get by without a handling agent in most first-world airports, but as soon as you get into lesser developed countries, your progress will bog right down without a handler. The big companies (Universal and others) have corresponding agents or contacts in just about every rat-hole of the world, and these folks are employed on the understanding that they will keep life trouble-free for the crew of the aircraft they are handling. So, although the local contact can't do anything about your landing fee or nav fee, they can make darn sure your small aircraft with a crew of two is not met by a 100 passenger bus to transport you over the 50 feet from your parking spot to the terminal building - a bus that you then have to pay $400 for, or else you don't get to leave that airport. Along a similar line, they will minimize problems and delays with the local officials (customs, health, airworthiness, etc.).
If you have not done so already, make sure that both pilots have Yellow Fever vaccinations. You can only get this vaccination from a limited number of locations in Canada. There is a waiting period of about 10 days between getting the vaccination and the vaccination being effective. You will get a very official looking little yellow card to show to officials in third world countries to prove that you have the vaccination. If you don't have the card, the official will expect a substantial bribe before allowing you to pass through.
Michael
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PanEuropean
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- Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 3:03 pm
- Location: Toronto, Canada
Re: Ferry Flt
That might be a bit optimistic - the '8 hours of flying a day' bit. Unless you are doing a familiar route and you know all the FBOs, handlers, and officials along the way, I think you will find that it takes you about 90 minutes at the airport to get going in the morning, and about 2 hours in the evening to get refueled, deal with paperwork, etc. Then, on top of that, you have to add transportation to and from the hotel, and time to eat breakfast in the morning and dinner in the evening.sarfarosh wrote:8 hrs of flying daily for 8 good day...
I've managed 8 hours of air time on familiar routes for a few days in a row, and I have managed to achieve as much as 10 hours a day on North American ferry flights (no officials to deal with, hotels located at the edge of the airport), but on most intercontinental ferry flights, especially those that go through lesser developed countries, it's a good day if you can get 6.5 to 7 hours of flight accomplished.
Remember that fatigue accumulates from day to day - you can't do more than 12 hour days "leaving the hotel until arriving at the next hotel" on an ongoing basis, otherwise, you will get worn out and need to take a day off. It is more practical to plan for about 6.5 to 7 hours of flight per day, because that is a sustainable pace.
Lastly - if your ferry will last for more than 7 days, plan to take a full day off between the 5th and 6th day, just staying put somewhere and sleeping in the same bed two nights in a row. Trust me, you will need it.
Michael
Re: Ferry Flt
So far Amman-Kuwait city(UAE)-Muscat...whereabouts exactly are you going?
Re: Ferry Flt
You should print Chipmunk post!
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramadan
Things over there might go slower.
About airports charges in Greenland during Sundays, keep in mind that those charges will double if your alternate is in Greenland as well (meaning two airports have to stay open)
I can be wrong but I believe going east band and depending on your flying cost/range and of course weather, having your alternate back in Canada could be cheaper.
Again, I wouldn't go without a handling company overshadowing me for this type of ferry.
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Between the 21/22 august to 20 September it's Ramadan time in the Middle East.sarfarosh wrote:Looks like going to happen in mid Sept...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramadan
Things over there might go slower.
About airports charges in Greenland during Sundays, keep in mind that those charges will double if your alternate is in Greenland as well (meaning two airports have to stay open)
I can be wrong but I believe going east band and depending on your flying cost/range and of course weather, having your alternate back in Canada could be cheaper.
Again, I wouldn't go without a handling company overshadowing me for this type of ferry.
