Cabotage?! ....

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tonysoprano
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Re: Cabotage?! ....

Post by tonysoprano »

This is obviously a touchy subject and open to different interpretation. IMO, as I stated above, if the US government wants to get involved and keep it political, I'm ok with it. However, ALPA represents many airlines in Canada as well. This is definitely conflict of interest and if I were represented by ALPA in Canada, I would be fuming right now and on the phone with the boys down south asking them WTF? It just happened to deal with AC but this also affects Jazz, 7F, Canjet ect... If you want to be an international organization you better represent internationally. But let's not forget who we're dealing with here. Can we really trust Americans? A quick look at NAFTA is all it takes. Even Obama the Saviour has protectionist ideas.
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rudder
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Re: Cabotage?! ....

Post by rudder »

tonysoprano wrote:This is obviously a touchy subject and open to different interpretation. IMO, as I stated above, if the US government wants to get involved and keep it political, I'm ok with it. However, ALPA represents many airlines in Canada as well. This is definitely conflict of interest and if I were represented by ALPA in Canada, I would be fuming right now and on the phone with the boys down south asking them WTF? It just happened to deal with AC but this also affects Jazz, 7F, Canjet ect... If you want to be an international organization you better represent internationally. But let's not forget who we're dealing with here. Can we really trust Americans? A quick look at NAFTA is all it takes. Even Obama the Saviour has protectionist ideas.
ALPA does not represent the pilot group that operate the JETZ flights, nor are they likely to any time in the near future. ALPA does not write the operating certificate rules for foreign airlines, nor do they sit on any tribunal that administers those rules. Looks like AC was lucky top get away with what it got away with and now the door is closed (unless a Bush brother gets elected to the White House in 2012 :lol: )

Dealing with the rules and the ever changing interpretation of the rules is all part of the game. Just ask the gang at Emirates HQ how they feel about Canadian rules.
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tonysoprano
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Re: Cabotage?! ....

Post by tonysoprano »

Rudder.
You're missing the point. This isn't about AC. This is about ALPA representation. What if First Air or jazz bid for this flying and got it? They are represented by ALPA. What if they wish to and won't just knowing their own union is trying to prevent this? I mean it just goes against their own membership. Why is ALPA not spending their time and money fighting for the rights of the Canadian groups they represent? I think ALPA is dealing with a hot potato here. They should just stay out of it and let the politicians work this out. Oh wait, don't one of those A's in ALPA stand for "America"?
Here's part of their letter:
“ALPA brought it to the Obama administration’s attention, and the DOT started an investigation,” Rice said. “While the investigation is still under way, this letter proves that we were right. It shows how your union protects your flying and works to reverse bad decisions that could set devastating precedents for undermining laws that every country and every airline should adhere to and respect.”
Can they write the same letter to their Canadian groups? I would be furious if I were a member of ALPA in Canada.
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rudder
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Re: Cabotage?! ....

Post by rudder »

tonysoprano wrote: Oh wait, don't one of those A's in ALPA stand for "America"?
Just schecked at http://www.alpa.org - no 'America' in the name. 53,000 pilots/ 36 airlines/ 2 countries. Founding member of IFALPA. Has a separate Canada Board and an EVP representing the Canadian member pilot groups.

The union that seems the most pissed about this ruling - 3400 pilots/ 1 airline/ 1 country. No IFALPA recognition. Seeking applicants for vacant President's office :oops:

Nothing to see here folks. Just move on.
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tonysoprano
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Re: Cabotage?! ....

Post by tonysoprano »

Has a separate Canada Board and an EVP representing the Canadian member pilot groups.
Nice try. Anyway they are your union, no matter how you spin it and they are screwing you. Oh wait. Jazz couldn't fly pro sports teams anyway. Ok, I get it now. Yep, move on. :roll:
The union that seems the most pissed about this ruling - 3400 pilots/ 1 airline/ 1 country. No IFALPA recognition. Seeking applicants for vacant President's office :oops:
We were actually one of the founding members of IFALPA, go figure. Pretty ignorant statement overall. Yes, time for Andy to go spend time with his family. Countless years of thankless work. He'll be missed. Speaking of thankless, you should show him respect, he has been working hard to save AirCanada/Jazz jobs for a long time. Tirelessly working in Ottawa voicing his concerns over the Emirites thing amongst others. Tell me what has ALPA done to save Canadian jobs?
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disco
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Re: Cabotage?! ....

Post by disco »

Tony, so you think there is better pilot representation out there? I am yet to see it.

I happen to know Captain Paul Rice personally and can assure you that he is very PRO Canadian pilot. I know this first hand. I have worked alongside him on pro Canadian pilot initiatives. I have attended meetings with him in Ottawa. However, it is ALPA's duty to represent their membership. How is it ok that Canadian carriers do an end run around cabotage law? Reverse the situation - are we ok with American pilots coming up do take over Canada to Canada flights? What is so difficult or touchy about this? We were not playing by the rules and that has now been clarified by the Obama admin. I don't see this as grey as you do.
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tonysoprano
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Re: Cabotage?! ....

Post by tonysoprano »

Disco.
Back up a second. Have a look at my initial post. I admitted right off the bat that AC might be getting away with something here. Rules are rules. My point is that ALPA also represents pilot groups in Canada. Will they also stop First Air (ALPA) from doing these charters? Actually I think First Air have done these sport charters in the past. Pardon my political correctness but I just think that they (ALPA) may have wanted to sit this one out and let the Feds handle it. This has nothing to do with one union being better than another.
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mattedfred
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Re: Cabotage?! ....

Post by mattedfred »

tonysoprano,

i would not support ALPA if they supported a bid by ACJ on this type of flying. please try not too sound so desperate when your trying to stir the pot. why don't you just join ALPA and merge lists so the infighting can come to an end?
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tonysoprano
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Re: Cabotage?! ....

Post by tonysoprano »

mattedfred wrote:tonysoprano,

i would not support ALPA if they supported a bid by ACJ on this type of flying. please try not too sound so desperate when your trying to stir the pot. why don't you just join ALPA and merge lists so the infighting can come to an end?
Why do you have to take this thread in that direction?
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mattedfred
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Re: Cabotage?! ....

Post by mattedfred »

i interpreted the tone of your posts and responded in kind with my own opinion
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teacher
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Re: Cabotage?! ....

Post by teacher »

I am 100% sure that ALPA would have stepped in had it been a US airline going against cabatoge rules in this country.

As for Jazz flying sports teams we do all the time among other charter work.
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Lakelad
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Re: Cabotage?! ....

Post by Lakelad »

really beginning to heat up

Canadian teams scramble as U.S. bans NHL charter flights

Friday, September 04, 2009 - Canwest News Service
Don Martin

Ottawa -- Canada's six NHLteams are scrambling to find alternative travel arrangements south of the border after the U.S. Department of Transportation banned Air Canada's charter fleet from flying between U.S. cities.

In a furious exchange with the Obama administration over the mid-August ruling, Canada has launched its own investigation and will soon close its skies to U.S. sports team charters in retaliation, warns Transport Minister John Baird.

The sticking point is an eight-year-old exemption that had allowed sports and celebrity charters to make several pit stops in American cities. Under existing open skies agreements, regular Canadian airline flights can only visit one U.S. city before returning.

NHL Deputy Commissioner Bill Daly warns the charter ban will create a complicated "patchwork" of travel that could "wreck havoc" with the oncoming hockey schedule, including early league games in Europe, as teams scramble to book flights under the new rules.

"It's potentially a very significant impact," Daly said Friday. "It's crazy and very destabilizing to our business. We're operating on a long-standing interpretation and for it to change overnight on the eve of our season is creating a huge problem for us."

Air Canada executive vice president Duncan Dee predicted the ruling will create "chaos" for teams shuttling across the border. "It's extremely messy for both American and Canadian teams," he said. It was a unilateral action imposed without consultation or Air Canada being able to defend itself. It's obvious the U.S. Department of Transportation doesn't watch hockey."

The Air Canada charters fly under the Jetz label.

Baird said the dispute "shows the power of anti-free-trade Democrats in the Congress" and cautioned his government will respond in kind.

"We've already directed the Canadian Transportation Agency to launch a formal inquiry and the next step will be a direction to the CTA to immediate prohibit charter flights by U.S. carriers under season-long contracts with professional sports teams with multiple stops in Canada," he said in an interview.

The ruling also side-swipes musicians and other artists on tour.

The matter was pushed by the U.S. Air Line Pilots Association. It had demanded an investigation of passenger lists on the NHLflights, which found a few examples of injured players, personal trainers and team owners boarding the charter south of the border and departing at another U.S. city in a technical violation of the agreement.

Despite the small number of passengers involved, the American side ruled it was enough to shut down an arrangement negotiated eight years ago during the George W. Bush presidency.

The Anaheim Ducks have pulled back from an Air Canada contract and there are concerns existing clients like the Boston Bruins and NBA Milwaukee Bucks will follow suit.

Air Canada says it still hopes Baird's hard-line response will force a resolution by the time NHL season starts next month.

Former Air Canada president Montie Brewer says the Jetz charters are the only way to fly for teams that must reach their destinations without fail. Each charter plane comes with its own on-board mechanic and has exclusive access to private terminals regular airlines cannot use.
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ZBBYLW
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Re: Cabotage?! ....

Post by ZBBYLW »

Well this new update is a bit of a mess. I hope Canada instead of "launching an investigation" play's hard ball with the US. Jetz may actually end up winning in the end though - if all the US teams going between Canada need a Canadian company- there really only is the one company that can provide this type of service.
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taylor498
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Re: Cabotage?! ....

Post by taylor498 »

Just an excerpt from a Yahoo Sports article along the same lines...
Yahoo Sports wrote: (Fri Sep 04, 2009 11:52 pm EDT) The most enlightening thing we've read about this dispute was in the forums for AVCanada.ca, an aviation site. The thread began back on Aug. 12, well before this became a hockey story, and the dialogue provides as least some semblance of balance as to why this "cabotage" situation is an important one for U.S. officials.
Again, it's a message board, and we have no idea who the posters are; but the sense we had after combing through the thread was that the laws are in place to prevent foreign airlines from providing local service, undercutting domestic carriers in everything from airfare to wages.
It's all just another big, bloated hockey business story in a summer that's seen too many of them. But more than that, it's another uncomfortable U.S. vs. Canada dispute -- and lord knows we've had enough of that this summer, too.
We're famous!

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/blog/puck_d ... nhl,187445
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Brick Head
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Re: Cabotage?! ....

Post by Brick Head »

This is all about passenger manifests. Nothing illegal takes when a foreign carrier flies point to point within Canada or the US on a charter. The catch? The passenger manifest can not change. No one gets off. No one gets on. Problem? What do you do with an injured player? What do you do with the guy who gets called up from the minors to replace him?

The US found a couple of instances where the manifest changed and that was enough to revoke.

The problem is that no foreign carrier can operate point to point within the US or Canada without being subject to the same problem. What do you do about it?


You either stop the reciprocal agreement all together (both sides of the boarder) or you make allowances for it.

One of the two will play out.

It will be a massive scramble but the charter flying will just get divided domestically. Dogs breakfast might be more accurate as the NHL schedule used to be built with all this in mind. AC will loose point to point in the US on a charter. US carriers will loose the same in Canada. Back to the way it used to be. Just less convenient for the teams.

This is really just protectionism. I mean Jetz started making enormous leaps into the US sports charter market starting last spring. Signing contracts with a multitude of sport teams. The teams liked the product. The US decided they didn't like the idea of competition when they were loosing. Gov't imposed repatriation of the work. As pointed out above. No different than Canada and Emerites though.

We all like the ides of competition until it becomes apparent we are loosing.

Most of this work was new. In the balance of things this will probably leave Jetz with the same amount of flying as last year. It however completely eliminates access to expansion.

Which by the way, is the whole point of this US action. And yes if we were at the loosing end of transferring work to foreign pilots we would be doing the same
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cjet
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Re: Cabotage?! ....

Post by cjet »

The solution might be for each team to buy and operate their own airplane privately. No more restrictions on point to point in the US.

Just my two cents

CJET
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Troubleshot
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Re: Cabotage?! ....

Post by Troubleshot »

cjet wrote:The solution might be for each team to buy and operate their own airplane privately. No more restrictions on point to point in the US.

Just my two cents

CJET
Bettman would probably put a cap on how much teams could spend on their aircraft.
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ZBBYLW
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Re: Cabotage?! ....

Post by ZBBYLW »

Troubleshot wrote:
cjet wrote:The solution might be for each team to buy and operate their own airplane privately. No more restrictions on point to point in the US.

Just my two cents

CJET
Bettman would probably put a cap on how much teams could spend on their aircraft.
Nah, he will just enforce a "Greyhound only" policy so the league can save money and use that money to keep the Coyotes in Phoenix! :rolleyes:
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loopa
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Re: Cabotage?! ....

Post by loopa »

In a furious exchange with the Obama administration over the mid-August ruling, Canada has launched its own investigation and will soon close its skies to U.S. sports team charters in retaliation, warns Transport Minister John Baird.
Or world's leaders are run by a sense of kindergarten attitude. What kind of childish nonsense is this really? :lol:


Oh Boy :rolleyes: Looks like this recession has taken a toll to people's sanity. We're going crazy !!! :smt040
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Rubberbiscuit
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Re: Cabotage?! ....

Post by Rubberbiscuit »

Brick Head wrote:This is all about passenger manifests. Nothing illegal takes when a foreign carrier flies point to point within Canada or the US on a charter. The catch? The passenger manifest can not change. No one gets off. No one gets on. Problem? What do you do with an injured player? What do you do with the guy who gets called up from the minors to replace him?

The US found a couple of instances where the manifest changed and that was enough to revoke.

The problem is that no foreign carrier can operate point to point within the US or Canada without being subject to the same problem. What do you do about it?


You either stop the reciprocal agreement all together (both sides of the boarder) or you make allowances for it.

One of the two will play out.

It will be a massive scramble but the charter flying will just get divided domestically. Dogs breakfast might be more accurate as the NHL schedule used to be built with all this in mind. AC will loose point to point in the US on a charter. US carriers will loose the same in Canada. Back to the way it used to be. Just less convenient for the teams.

This is really just protectionism. I mean Jetz started making enormous leaps into the US sports charter market starting last spring. Signing contracts with a multitude of sport teams. The teams liked the product. The US decided they didn't like the idea of competition when they were loosing. Gov't imposed repatriation of the work. As pointed out above. No different than Canada and Emerites though.

We all like the ides of competition until it becomes apparent we are loosing.

Most of this work was new. In the balance of things this will probably leave Jetz with the same amount of flying as last year. It however completely eliminates access to expansion.

Which by the way, is the whole point of this US action. And yes if we were at the loosing end of transferring work to foreign pilots we would be doing the same
You are right about the passenger manifest, but they also bring up the point that "scheduled airlines cannot go point to point in the US". Does this mean charter only operators are exempt? If so might be a good time to start a "sports charter outfit" :D
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