North Cariboo Update

[Ogee]

I think you should know enough NOT to do something stupid all by yourself.....???

+1

[Koizie1]

Contrails is a way for customers to audit charter companies without doing it by themselves. Oil company XYZ has no idea if charter ABC has a good safety record, pays pilots well, crashes, maintains its planes well. Contrail audits companies and provides XYZ with 'reliable' info on how each company operates. There is no other way for XYZ to do this. They have insurance premiums for their employess and the insurance companyies definitely want to see that XYZ is making an effort to protect their employees. This keeps their premiums down.

Transport gives no guidance to XYZ about how safe or good a comapny does, and if you thibnk they do you should sit in on a transport audit.

The time requirements for pilots used by contrails are a joke and mean nothing in terms of how safely a pilot can get from a to b, we all know that. But contrails usually ensures that companies take safety seriously, pays their pilots well and trains them well.

Most XYZ's do not hacve the time, expertise or resources to ensure all of these things for their employees.


I dont quite meet contrails, so I hate it!!!!

[Doc]

Contrails is a way for customers to audit charter companies without doing it by themselves. Oil company XYZ has no idea if charter ABC has a good safety record, pays pilots well, crashes, maintains its planes well. Contrail audits companies and provides XYZ with 'reliable' info on how each company operates. There is no other way for XYZ to do this. They have insurance premiums for their employess and the insurance companyies definitely want to see that XYZ is making an effort to protect their employees. This keeps their premiums down.

And this is exactly the "sunshine" Contrails has managed to pound up the oil companies' asses!
What an absolute pile of shit! The companies in question are "required" to use Transport Canada licenced pilots. They are required "by law" to carry appropriate insurance.
Just happy I don't have to deal with these "piss ants"!

[Conquest Driver]

How does Contrail ensure that a company "pays its Pilots well"?

As far as I know, Pilot salary (or lack thereof) is not any part of a Contrail approval. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Likewise AME salaries which should also be a factor.

[privateer]

So back to first question. How is NCB doing since the mishap?

[swordfish]

.. noted: The other thing I always find interesting is Oil Company XYZ subscribes to Contrails and then ABC Air Charters is unable to do a charter because they do not have a crews available, XYZ Oil then get a hold of CMA and Charter them with a crew that doesn't even come close to Contrails.

Actually it's obscene...and hypocritical. Many 704 pilots at CMA come nowhere near the Contrail requirements. But there is an assumption of experience and competency ("credibility") because the airline is a Tier 3 carrier.

Yet Contrail virtually makes or breaks other operators in Alberta, since so much of the flying (both charter and sched) is oil patch, oil company employees, or oil company contractors. Your crew scheduling is dictated by their requirements. Finding and hiring crew with the required experience was a frickn nightmare a couple of years ago...maybe the current industry situation has alleviated that problem.

A company who upgraded pilots from the ramp, dispatch, ops, etc had no (or few) copilots who met the ridiculous time requirements. Not to mention the headaches and resource demands co-operating with them during their audits.

Now North Cariboo - which is a seriously diligent organization with a long history of safety - has been castigated by the withdrawal of Contrail "approval". This is a below-the-belt punch for this company, paying for the error of 2 individuals. What's wrong with this picture?

[Doc]

Since Contrail seems to have this kind of power, if they don't have something to the affect of..."a gear up accident shall result in the loss ot our approval....." in the small print, somewhere, I suspect NCA, after showing a loss of revenue as a direct result of Contrail's actions, would have a pretty good case for a major law suit. This may be jut the way to rid your selves of this maggot cluster, that is Contrail.

[Ogee]

Since Contrail seems to have this kind of power, if they don't have something to the affect of..."a gear up accident shall result in the loss ot our approval....." in the small print, somewhere, I suspect NCA, after showing a loss of revenue as a direct result of Contrail's actions, would have a pretty good case for a major law suit. This may be jut the way to rid your selves of this maggot cluster, that is Contrail.

Or a Fifth Estate story.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Now North Cariboo - which is a seriously diligent organization with a long history of safety - has been castigated by the withdrawal of Contrail "approval". This is a below-the-belt punch for this company, paying for the error of 2 individuals. What's wrong with this picture?

If true that is the most unfair thing I have ever heard of in aviation.

Every charter company in Canada should band together and bring a lawsuit against Contrail.

[turbo-prop]

If in fact NCA lost contrail (which I doubt) they will get it back after an audit that might coming up anyways. Is for pay a 1900 captain at NCA or Sunwest can start making more money then the top guy at CMA (including the Dornier). Yes it sucks for a guy who doesn't meet the requirements, so go get them, yes it might mean leaving the big city. It was hard for operators to find the experienced people a couple of years ago, which also helped the salaries go up.

[Be20Captain]

Actually it's obscene...and hypocritical. Many 704 pilots at CMA come nowhere near the Contrail requirements. But there is an assumption of experience and competency ("credibility") because the airline is a Tier 3 carrier.

The other thing I always find interesting is Oil Company XYZ subscribes to Contrails and then ABC Air Charters is unable to do a charter because they do not have a crews available, XYZ Oil then get a hold of CMA and Charter them with a crew that doesn't even come close to Contrails.

I think it is important to point out that CMA is contrail approved. Therefore if CMA is doing a charter the crew must be contrail approved. Not sure where this idea that just because they are a tier 3 carrier they are excused from contrail standards. Now speaking exclusively to the scheduled side of the business, you are correct. There is no requirement for CMA to provide a contrail crew if the customer books a seat. However, for the oil company to book a seat CMA must be a contrail company to begin with with regards to maintenance and operational standards.

Not to question Cariboo, as they are a well respected carrier. However, at what point in time is it worth taking a closer look? After all, on top of the Edmonton incident, there was the off runway excursion in Drayton Valley and the landing on the roadway in Mildred Lake This comment is not made to criticize but act as a catalyst for discussion.

[Sidebar]

However, at what point in time is it worth taking a closer look? After all, on top of the Edmonton incident, there was the off runway excursion in Drayton Valley and the landing on the roadway in Mildred Lake This comment is not made to criticize but act as a catalyst for discussion.

Good point. Three recent occurrences ought to be sufficient to encourage an operator to take a closer look at how they are managing risk. These three occurrences are likely the tip of an iceberg.

[Koizie1]

Contrails does not `ensure` (a bad choice of word) pilots are paid well, but the companies that do a lot of contrails work seem to pay better than others. North Cariboo and Sunwest are the obvious choices. For King Air and 1900 in Alberta they pay the best.

[Captain X]

North Cariboo and Sunwest are the obvious choices. For King Air and 1900 in Alberta they pay the best.

I'm not so sure your correct there.... one 1900 op pays 85k and another operator who has 200's pay scale is 65-95k... and neither one of them are NCA or SW

[swordfish]

Thanks for the clarification BE20Captain. However it is incongruous that everyone else in the community has to have Contrail-approved crew whether it be sched or charter. There's not a question of CMA's credibility; that's not the issue.

It's the arbitrary way their policies are approved. If one crew of 2 individuals can botch a landing at NCA, the corollary is that any crew can do this, depending on their personal, environmental, and operational stresses they face on any particular day.

Besides my my bitch with Contrail is that they think a certain number of hours gives you "credibility". Well that may be true for just curious or cat driver and others in that elite group, but in the 1000-5000 hour range, a lot more credibility can be derived from the personal suitability, skills, aptitude, training, and mental acumen of the INDIVIDUAL. It is my position - and always has been - that you have to look deeper than a pilot's time to see what he's really like. Diversity of experience is one huge factor.

We have all seen examples of low-time drivers whose abilities outstrip many pilots with higher time. Hell, one of my mates drives a Dash 8 for Canadian North (Captain) with 3400 hours total time. He would not be approved by Contrail (I think...) because of his time-on-type. Go figure. However he is particularly sharp, a keener, a crisp smooth pilot, not an ego freak, but his demeanor changes from his crazy off-the-job manner to top-drawer professionalism in the cockpit.

Contrail has no strategy to adjust for these types of guys (gals...)

[Doc]

I know of (but won't name) a certain company that lost their "Contrail" status, due to a table saw in the hangar missing a hand guard. Nothing at all to do with aircraft, or pilot qualifications. Simply a casualty of allowing a "third party" ANY say in how YOU do business.
Think I'll talk to a few companies in Ontario, about ensuring they they only charter "Doc Approved" operators. Don't laugh. It makes just as much sense as our little friend at Contrail.
All I'd need is a few skewed facts and figures, and overhead projector, spiffy Armani suit......and the balls to charge them exorbitant sums of money for my, um, er, services!

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Besides my my bitch with Contrail is that they think a certain number of hours gives you "credibility". Well that may be true for just curious or cat driver and others in that elite group,

We made it to here by growing older without killing our self's in an aircraft, many things are in the mix that allowed us to get here.

For me it was learning from excellent pilots how to not only manipulate the controls but how to think ahead of where I am at a given time and knowing when it is time not to go any further. Also luck has a lot to do with it because I sure as hell did some dumb things over my career and have no idea how I survived....but I sure as hell learned from each adventure into the unknown.

but in the 1000-5000 hour range, a lot more credibility can be derived from the personal suitability, skills, aptitude, training, and mental acumen of the INDIVIDUAL. It is my position - and always has been - that you have to look deeper than a pilot's time to see what he's really like. Diversity of experience is one huge factor.

I have seen 1000 hour pilots who were superb at both flying and making good decisions so total time is a very poor indicator of ability to fly and or think.

[Plim Sole]

Airlines are not subject to CONTRAIL, even for a charter.
A pairing is awarded by seniority not by total hours (at my airline) so CONTRAIL is not a factor.
Also, the company does not require us to declare our hours before flying a CONTRAIL charter so how would they know if we are CONTRAIL?

CONTRAIL is not worth the paperwork it generates. It doesn't make a company safer, it makes the oil companies think their employees are safer. IMHO of course

[sky's the limit]

It doesn't make a company safer, it makes the oil companies think their employees are safer. IMHO of course

Oh, you must be talking about SMS now....

stl

[Plim Sole]

Ha Ha! Thats a whole new thread waiting to be opened!!!

[MDT]

The question that begs to be asked is what was happening in the industry that provided Contrails with such an influential role in safety monitoring? Nothing has prevented "industry" from taking the lead and policing itself through it's own lobbying associations. They have been sadly silent and as nature abhors a void, Contrails has filled it.

[Doc]

The question that begs to be asked is what was happening in the industry that provided Contrails with such an influential role in safety monitoring? Nothing has prevented "industry" from taking the lead and policing itself through it's own lobbying associations. They have been sadly silent and as nature abhors a void, Contrails has filled it.

There was no "void" to fill. There was nothing "happening in the industry" that required a contrail type roll. The industry has always "policed" itself. Even more so now, with "SMS".
Contrail just got an idea, shone sunshine up the Oil Company's asses, and used the same skill that snake oil salesmen have been using for years. Create a perceived "need" for a product, and sell that product/service that the recipient "thinks" he/she "needs". And, they sure drank the Cool Aid!

[ehbuddy]

The solution to the CONTRAIL problem is actually quite simple if every operator got together, had a big pow-wow and worked together on a solution.

Contrail goes to the oil companies with a big list of ridiculous numbers and in doing so hold the Air Operators hostage.

Yet..........these oil companies have no other reasonable method to fly its crews in and out to 90% of its sites.

Just reverse the problem.........

Contrail dictates to the oil companies on who they should fly with. So the Air Operators should stand together and dictate to the oil companies that they abide by the rules of Transport Canada and not the rules Contrail and should they (the oil companies) wish to fly then Contrail has to be eliminated from their mandate.

Can you imagine what would happen if Contrail walked into the offices of Westjet dictating on how things are now going to be run..................

[snaproll20]

if you think Contrail is bad now, you should have seen it 25 years ago!
Run by an egotistical, over-opinionated, useless, over-bearing, interferring and basically cantankerous clown
Of course, this was the result of having too much power.

"Power corrupts, but absolute power corrupts absolutely."

[bobcaygeon]

25 years ago....

What a coincidence, Air Wapiti and their crash in High Prairie that killed Grant Notley was 25 years ago.

This industry has brought this on themselves in so many ways it is pathetic.

Just because you meet the minimum standard doesn't mean that the customer can't expect/ask for more.

My employer secured a 5 year contract even though they weren't the cheapest but they provided more value for the $$ billed.


Ford meets the minimum standards of the regulator for the auto industry . Toyota exceeds that standard.

Who is more profitable even though they are more expensive?