GEAR UP LANDINGS

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Will you ever land with the gear up?

Poll ended at Sun Aug 23, 2009 5:26 am

Never!
28
23%
Maybe, but very unlikely.
73
60%
At some point in my career, very likely.
1
1%
Been there, done that already.
5
4%
I don't fly with retractable gear.
15
12%
 
Total votes: 122

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thecaptain
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by thecaptain »

Doc wrote:Nope. Will never happen. Ever. I will not do this. If the gear "will not come down" then it doesn't count, but it's just one of those things that will never happen to me. I will NEVER win the Masters, the Tour de France, the Indy 500, Wimbledon, Le Mans, the German Grand Prix, the Paris Dakar or land gear up, because I forgot to put it down! Take it to the bank!
Not all accidents are part of a chain of events. There are not always contributing factors. Some accidents are caused simply by the pilot. All by himself. I know you have been taught all the warm and fuzzy, politically correct terms. They do NOT always apply. Long hours, duty times, fatigue and all the rest sometimes do have some bearing on performance. No doubt about it. But lowering the gear is right up there with opening the bathroom door BEFORE we piss in the toilet! It's just one of those things we DO!
Man I should know better than to start opening my mouth but what the hell...

Doc, seriously. You probably won't ever do this.. Ok. I hope you're good vibes keep your ass safe for the rest of your days flying. Don't ya think, even just a WEE bit that having that type of attitude may one day lead you down a bad road? Wouldn't you rather be a little cautious in how you think, so as to prevent something like this happening as opposed to believing nothing bad will happen to you? I don't mean, approach your day with paranoia, but at least approach it with some sense of reality. You're really no better than anyone else here, and last time I checked, aside from the google bots on here, we are all human and subject to errors and mistakes. It's not a matter of if, but when and how bad and how you handle it.

With all due respect, your statement about "There are not always contributing factors" is ignorant. Things just don't happen for no reason at all. There is always something that leads up to it, whether it be as simple as a drifting tired mind or a days worth a crappy events finally leading up to the "oops." Your thought process is dated and old school. I don't mean to be rude at all, but times have changed, a great deal of research and study has been put into human factors and event chains. The evidence is there, and it provides a better answer to issues that arise then some pilot simply saying "It's like wiping your ass..." Smart funny remarks aren't what the industry needs, and it's certainly not what a new pilot needs to hear either.

I suspect you are quite the perfectionist or would believe you are anyway, and would therefor find it hard to admit to being able to make this, what would seem, simplest of mistakes. I would also go as far as to say you have just never been faced with this particular issue of gear extension at THE very moment you go to do something which is so automatic. That.. or your EGO is much too important to admit you're just as human as the rest of us. Any automated process can be thrown off if a wrench is introduced at the wrong time. You believe what you wish on this, I respect that entirely, but this CAN happen to you. I'm not intending to bring your skills or experience into question, but rather hope to point out to you that despite all of this "experience" you are far from impervious to mistakes.

Nuff said...

Cheers!
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by Doc »

Oh, I hear everything you're saying. Please note. I did not say I'm above making mistakes. Just, I won't make THAT one. It's just too automatic.
You're correct in saying, a lot of research has indeed gone into accident causes. Human factors. Company culture/climate/mind set. The links, if you will in a chain of events. Contributing factors. Fatigue. Duty hours and the like. In a Hell of a lot of cases, these factors DO enter into the picture. No doubt about it.
BUT.....there's always a BUT. Some of the above have become "excuses". Scape goats. Something else, politically correct to BLAME when the pilot pulls a Royal @#$! Up. This is the single point I'm trying to get across. Sometimes it's just "old school". You screwed up. You. All by yourself. If we don't admit this, these things will continue to happen. It's not because you drove over your girlfriend's cat on the way to work.....or any number of excuses you can dig up. Sometimes there is nobody to blame but YOU.......

And no....you aren't being "rude" at all. This is how we learn.
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

." Your thought process is dated and old school. I don't mean to be rude at all, but times have changed, a great deal of research and study has been put into human factors and event chains. The evidence is there, and it provides a better answer to issues that arise then some pilot simply saying "It's like wiping your ass..."
What exactly is " Old school "?

Can you tell me when aviation turned the corner form " old school " to this enlightened age where we changed into educated humans who understand why people make mistakes but continue to make the same mistakes?

In other words how can I tell if I am " Old school " or if I am one of the ones that is in the new school category?
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After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by Snagmaster E »

Love my plane for this... "TOO LOW, GEAR. TOO LOW, GEAR"

To which the usual response is.. "Gear down to shut that thing up, will ya?"
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by thecaptain »

. . wrote:
." Your thought process is dated and old school. I don't mean to be rude at all, but times have changed, a great deal of research and study has been put into human factors and event chains. The evidence is there, and it provides a better answer to issues that arise then some pilot simply saying "It's like wiping your ass..."
What exactly is " Old school "?

Can you tell me when aviation turned the corner form " old school " to this enlightened age where we changed into educated humans who understand why people make mistakes but continue to make the same mistakes?

In other words how can I tell if I am " Old school " or if I am one of the ones that is in the new school category?
That specifically was a response based on my initial impression of the post I had quoted. That impression came from what seemed to me to be a lack of regard for newer systems which have been implemented to address such issues. It's gone from "you must be an idiot because you screwed up!" to "You screwed up, and lets look at what led to that and try and prevent it from happening again." Pilots aren't hung out to dry instantly if something bad happens.

DOC has since clarified what he was saying, and as such I wouldn't consider him not so "old school" now.

I would say this industry is constantly changing its thinking regarding safety, human factors, etc. My own thought process will be dated a few years from now. That's just the plain and simple truth. If I refuse to educate myself further based on new studies, documentation, and facts... I'll be old school.

I suppose you could take it this way - In the case of this particular thread - If you have no regard what-so-ever for factors leading to human error, you're old school. I hope this clears the air.

Cheers!
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by Doc »

Funny thing is, in the "old" days we had folks do the very odd gear up landing.
Now, we have all the safety devices, bells and whistles, politically correct, warm and fuzzy terminology....and guess what?? We still have the folks doing the odd gear up landing.
I think we're "swinging at windmills".....thoughts?
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by thecaptain »

Doc wrote:Funny thing is, in the "old" days we had folks do the very odd gear up landing.
Now, we have all the safety devices, bells and whistles, politically correct, warm and fuzzy terminology....and guess what?? We still have the folks doing the odd gear up landing.
I think we're "swinging at windmills".....thoughts?
It is certainly interesting and undeniable. I think it comes down to some basics that don't change no matter what day and age one speaks of. Lack of attention and distractions. I never said all the terminology and fancy terms WOULD fix that or has.

It would be interesting to research the time of day and/or conditions during gear up landings from the past and present as well as A/C types.

It's been fun..

Cheers!
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

That specifically was a response based on my initial impression of the post I had quoted. That impression came from what seemed to me to be a lack of regard for newer systems which have been implemented to address such issues.
It would seem that the new systems do not inspire regard for the simple reason pilots still land with the gear in the wrong position.

I guess " Old school " is any time frame that is before the time a given pilot enters the business?

Even in the flight training sector of aviation I am out of the loop because I know I would fail a flight instructors exam because I would not be able to answer the questions on learning factors.

So how come I can still teach flying even not knowing the answers to that exam?
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The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.

After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by Caballero »

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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

Doc is a hazard with that attitude.

Really, are you saying Doc is accident prone?
Glad I don't have to fly with anyone sporting that mentality.
I usually agree with the opinions that doc expresses here does that also make me accident prone?
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The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.

After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by thecaptain »

. . wrote: It would seem that the new systems do not inspire regard for the simple reason pilots still land with the gear in the wrong position.

I guess " Old school " is any time frame that is before the time a given pilot enters the business?

Even in the flight training sector of aviation I am out of the loop because I know I would fail a flight instructors exam because I would not be able to answer the questions on learning factors.

So how come I can still teach flying even not knowing the answers to that exam?
Hmmm...

I don't believe, that I have suggested "new systems" have fixed the problems. It's about getting to the root of a problem. The reasons pilots land with the gear up are not always so simple if you take a look at the underlying events leading up to it. That's the point here. If it were so simple, one would asume we would have a fix for it now, yes? I never suggested new thinking has fixed anything. Improved things in certain areas, yes, but not fixed. Just because it hasn't fixed anything isn't a reason to reject improved understanding.

Old School certainly is not my way of saying anything before my time in aviation is false. Without that, we wouldn't have a base to form new safety standards or thinking. We would have no good examples. It's a term, and maybe in all honesty a poorly picked one on my part, but said now, non-the-less, which describes a style of thinking. It's a thought process which worked in its day, and still does but the difference being it has been added to and improved. No, it does not fix all the problems, but it's a better way to "THINK" in regards to trying to reduce accidents/incidents through improved understanding as to why they happen. I'm not suggesting here that pilots from an earlier generation are worse or better or have it all wrong, have horns on theirs heads and glow red. I'm saying the thinking on how we approach problems in this industry today, has changed from yesterday. The idea of being "tired" for example isn't a new idea. BUT whereas before it would have been "suck it up sister and get to work" it is slowly becoming a serious issue which needs to be addressed, and this is beginning to be recognized by the industry in large with some smaller operations still resistent unfortunately. This would not have happened had it not been for a new thought process on the issue as a result of research and detailed study. All of which I remind you is to make life for the pilot better and up the odds of said pilot coming home in one piece.

Interpret it as you wish.
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

This would not have happened had it not been for a new thought process on the issue as a result of research and detailed study. All of which I remind you is to make life for the pilot better and up the odds of said pilot coming home in one piece.

Interpret it as you wish.
I guess where we are apart on this is the time frame when these so called " new " thought processes started.

I can only relate to my own experience in aviation and these issues were well known as long as I can remember.

Quite frankly I think that making the requirements to be a commercial pilot a lot more difficult and improving the training offered to new pilots would go a long way towards pilots making elementary mistakes such as having the wrong gear position selected far less likely.

Also better operational control by companies would weed out those who are high risk.

You do agree that there are high risk and low risk pilots do you not?
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The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.

After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by thecaptain »

. . wrote:
This would not have happened had it not been for a new thought process on the issue as a result of research and detailed study. All of which I remind you is to make life for the pilot better and up the odds of said pilot coming home in one piece.

Interpret it as you wish.
I guess where we are apart on this is the time frame when these so called " new " thought processes started.

I can only relate to my own experience in aviation and these issues were well known as long as I can remember.

Quite frankly I think that making the requirements to be a commercial pilot a lot more difficult and improving the training offered to new pilots would go a long way towards pilots making elementary mistakes such as having the wrong gear position selected far less likely.

Also better operational control by companies would weed out those who are high risk.

You do agree that there are high risk and low risk pilots do you not?
I agree with that 110%!
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

I believe that good training was part of the reason I have managed to make well over fifty thousand landings without ever letting one get out of control or forgetting where the gear was.
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The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.

After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by Doc »

Caballero wrote:Sounds like Doc needs a basic human factors refresher. Any recollection of an identified Hazardous attitude 'It cant happen to me'? I thought you said you weren't above making mistakes. Oh everything but that? I didn't realize there were exceptions when it comes to 'mistakes'.

Doc is a hazard with that attitude. Glad I don't have to fly with anyone sporting that mentality.
Sure, I'm a "hazard". Good come back.
Okay, so share with us, from your obvious vast knowledge of the subject, how a "basic human factors refresher" would reduce in any way, the likelihood of a gear up landing?
For that matter, how would the identification of a "hazardous" attitude (that's the best one yet!) prevent a gear up incident??
But, instead of offering one single answer, you prefer to point a finger at me?
Does it threaten your warm and fuzzy mind set, that I will always remember to put the gear down for landings? That I will always remember to wipe my ass after taking a dump?
Or that someday...you may NOT?
Well, that's YOUR problem. Not mine.
Enjoy the sound of scrapping aluminum that's so obviously in you future.
If you think it can happen to you....it just might.
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by mcrit »

Doc, it's 12:30 on a Friday night, wouldn't you rather be in a bar somewhere right now?
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by Doc »

mcrit wrote:Doc, it's 12:30 on a Friday night, wouldn't you rather be in a bar somewhere right now?
I'm in a bloody bar! :smt040 :smt040
Damn rum and coke! :lol: :lol:
It's five o'clock somewhere!!! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by Caballero »

.
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by MDT »

No body ever goes out with the intent of having an accident, so this is a poor question.
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by Sidebar »

Close call in Sydney.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... v9KiWS0Ato
By Ed Johnson

Nov. 4 (Bloomberg) -- Qantas Airways Ltd., Australia’s largest airline, said it suspended two pilots after a Boeing 767 came within 700 feet (213 meters) of landing in Sydney before they realized the plane’s wheels weren’t lowered.
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by GilletteNorth »

Holy Hell!! Almost crashed a B767 gear up... shouldn't these two be fired and have their licence pulled? After all they came closer to wrecking a plane and killing passengers than the Northwest pilots that overflew Minneapolis by 150 miles.
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Having a standard that pilots lose their licence after making a mistake despite doing no harm to aircraft or passengers means soon you needn't worry about a pilot surplus or pilots offering to fly for free. Where do you get your experience from?
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by 'effin hippie »

After 5 pages this is probably useless but what the hell.

I've witnessed one gear-up and been around for the aftermath of 2 more. Watching a PA-31 sail by the office window in a nice sweet flare with no wheels to see and me and the old guy having a smoke and a coffee just flabbergasted. Very memorable.

But anyway, the interesting point was that all 3 of these happened during single engine training on ME a/c.

In every twin I've ever flown you can imagine a conversation like this: "Gee, we're 3 miles back on profile, powers normal, but we're 40 knots faster than usual. What in heaven's name could be happening?"
During normal ops the gear is a pretty integral part of attaining a normal power and decent rate profile, and I think selecting the gear kinda just becomes essential to hitting the runway the way the crew is planning to. Or to say it another way, they aren't just selecting the gear because it's on the list and they need it, like say arming the auto-feather or spoilers or something, but because they won't achieve their normal approach profile without it.

During training, outside of the decent and landing profiles a crew is used to, with unfamiliar power-settings and configurations and probably a higher workload, gear comes up and goes down several times during the lesson, now you're on final SE, speed is normal so everything looks kinda familiar, but...

Anyway, that's my 2c. Yet another reason to be extra careful during training (or any other abnormal ops), which all too often can become a very relaxed environment.

ef
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by Doc »

GilletteNorth wrote:Holy Hell!! Almost crashed a B767 gear up... shouldn't these two be fired and have their licence pulled? After all they came closer to wrecking a plane and killing passengers than the Northwest pilots that overflew Minneapolis by 150 miles.
Herein lies the difference......They did not actually land gear up.....NWA actually DID have their heads up their asses for over an hour. Final landing checks seemed to work for Quantas....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbGuqmaD ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fF7B34xk ... re=related
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by nimbostratus »

Or perhaps the TAWS warning at 700' "Too low Gear" just might have helped them remember...
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by Doc »

nimbostratus wrote:Or perhaps the TAWS warning at 700' "Too low Gear" just might have helped them remember...
That would have been a lot of egg on the face....
I'd be interested to know the stats on gear up with one vs. two crew.....anybody...Bueller, Bueller........
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