Cargojet flying on behalf of Amerijet?

[777 Expat]

TAWS and Jazzjetdriver,

Maybe I haven't explain myself properly. If American Airlines were to go on strike then the customers would move to different carriers such as US AIR, DELTA, Southwest etc... Not one pilot union would tell their members to park airplanes on routes served by American Airlines.
In this case the freight forwarders who are the customers have moved to a different company. The contracts have been signed between Cargojet and the freight forwarders, not Amerijet.

The only difference between the two is that Cargojet are flying boxes and American is flying passengers. Speaking of American Airlines, how much you want to bet American is also carrying the freight Amerijet usually carries. I suspect and highly doubt the American pilots are bumping the freight.

My last post,

[Pratt X 3]

Friday, September 4, 2009 CargoJet flights
Leg 1: CYHM-KMIA http://flightaware.com/live/flight/CJT9 ... /CYHM/KMIA
Leg 2: KMIA-TTPP http://flightaware.com/live/flight/CJT1 ... /KMIA/TTPP
Leg 3: TTPP-MDSD http://flightaware.com/live/flight/CJT1 ... /TTPP/MDSD
Leg 4: MDSD-KMIA http://flightaware.com/live/flight/CJT1 ... /MDSD/KMIA

[2R]

Rule one :
Never cross a picket line.

Pretty broad mandate, that. I must have missed the news about pilots not crossing the lines and successfully shutting Pearson down during the nine day strike last month.

For those of you in Vancouver, PSAC will be in a strike position on the 18th. Don't forget to support your brothers and sisters there too. Labour situation at Vancouver Airport worsens - delays could begin in two weeks

Think of it as more of a maxim.
If every union member refused to cross another unions picket line it would result in serious negoitiations ,quicker resolutions of all disputes .That would benefit everyone.
It is all about respect and dignity for those we work with.

[frequentflyer]

You know it's funny to hear people say things like "support our brothers" and such non-sense, come on guys!!!! lets stop playing "Mother Theresa" here, we all know that this industry is full of "HYPOCRITES" who on the one hand pretend to promote "unity" and "brotherhood" but as soon as they have a chance to advance their carrers (even if they have to step on somebody's head) they wouldn't think twice. Reality check!!!

[TAWS]

You know.....

I would be interested to see the stats so far in this thread based on the reply's on which pilots work in a union and which don't.

Based on the responses here, I think it would pretty much go like this.....

Pilots who responded in this thread that are in a union = no support Cargojet pilots and their actions

Pilots who are not part of an union or never were = support for Cargojet pilots

Why is this important?

....Culture....

[Joe Blow Schmo]

TAWS and Jazzjetdriver,

Maybe I haven't explain myself properly. If American Airlines were to go on strike then the customers would move to different carriers such as US AIR, DELTA, Southwest etc... Not one pilot union would tell their members to park airplanes on routes served by American Airlines.
In this case the freight forwarders who are the customers have moved to a different company. The contracts have been signed between Cargojet and the freight forwarders, not Amerijet.

The only difference between the two is that Cargojet are flying boxes and American is flying passengers. Speaking of American Airlines, how much you want to bet American is also carrying the freight Amerijet usually carries. I suspect and highly doubt the American pilots are bumping the freight.

My last post,

As I understand it, the CJ planes are being handled by Amerijet, are loading Amerijet labeled freight out of Amerijet's hangars. Certainly looks like a sub-charter in which Amerijet is making money, and therefore flying struck freight. Not too many individual freight forwarders would have enough of their own freight going to POS to justify chartering their own 767.

However, as a theoretical scenario, you are correct that if customers are bypassing Amerijet altogether and hiring other airlines directly, that is not scabbing. That situation would be good for the union as Amerijet is losing business.

[billy ray valintine]

you know,....... the longer the strike,the greater the chance the freight might end up
in someone else's hands ........permanently. then you have .......... nothing!
amerijet representation waited too long to resolve these problems.
the future!,.......i see something about abx and perishable fish!
wouldn't that be something if the amerijet pilots applied for a job there!!!!

brv

[Jerk Store]

To Mr. Joe Blow Schmo, your theoretical scenario actually happens to be what is happening. No struck freight for the good folks at CargoJet.

Best Regards,

J. Store

[Dilbert Pickles]

This is great guy's,

Cargojet as pilot group is fantastic bunch. Senior management on the other hand is a bloody joke. Just to mention how the CEO wouldn't award some senior pilots with the profit sharing because they followed the regulations and didn't bust 17 hrs. which resulted in late freight. His words "get the job done then we'll talk about it." Any pilot that would speak up, would magically disappear and no one would talk or ask about it... Anyhow, we all know how the company ops manual changes on a daily basis there. Work first, family second...
You know as a pilot group that you've needed representation, you have for a long time! It's obvious no body has a spine, anyone that did has left.
Soooo now the guys in head office tell you it's perfectly fine to be flying struck freight and everyone marches on. Looks like the wet noodled hand shake of the CEO has molded you all perfectly . Get off your asses and do something about it, so shit like this doesn't happen. What will they tell you next?

Just curious, how did it feel flying into Toledo or Newark afterward s, Proud? Did you tell them your management said it was okay?

PS. better tighten up, peak is just around the corner

[florch]

That's awesome Dilbert, bang on.

BTW, I wonder why the issue is primarily about a small Canadian company flying struck freight. It seems to me there is another part, where cabotage is being allowed solely for the purposes of making sure the lowest common denominator in North America is getting the work. This is far scarier, and applies to every pilot on the continent.

[ramp_rat]

I heard there are soo much more frieght in MIA that CJ is sending all the piss cutters to pick up the slack!!

[george sugar]

Dilbert Pickles,

Forgive my thickness, but “Cargojet as pilot group is (sic) fantastic bunch.”, but then “It's obvious nobody has a spine, anyone that did has left.”?

Slag me all you want. But stay away from my gals and guys. Have you considered that maybe your time at Cargojet has allowed you to go from where you were to where you are now? If you have never been here, then what gives you the licence to speak to that which you have no knowledge of? Our pilot group knows what they are doing, the truth of what they are told, and the reason they choose, or do not choose, to have some disinterested third-party with no personal stake in their lives to “represent their best interests” in the fulfillment of agendas that have nothing to do with their needs. Maybe they feel that they can talk to those that can actually do something about it rather than finding a proxy that promises the moon and stars but delivers only adversity. They have all had ample opportunities to find employment elsewhere, but they have chosen to stay and build something that we can all be proud of, rather than complaining constantly about not having something else.

What you say is simply not true, and I would be pleased to address each of your allegations in person, but I suspect that will not come to pass. As a senior manager, I am amused you find me to be a joke, but only if I am trying to be being funny at the time. We are doing the best we can through difficult times, but I do understand that never having had to be a senior manager you would not fully appreciate the choices that have to be made each day between popularity and being able to operate tomorrow.

Our pilots are already getting off their asses and doing something about it; they are going to work each day and being professionals, rather than finding excuses. I am honoured to be associated with the Cargojet pilots, and to do what I can to see that I will be able to say the same many years from now.

Sincerely,

George

[TAWS]

I was wondering when you would make an appearance.

It's unfortunate it wasn't until the 5th page of this thread....however you don't owe the people of cyberworld any explanation.

In any event, after what I thought was a great post on SMS by yourself a few months back, and then direction the thread was taken by certain people, It doesn't surprise me you are avoiding this forum.

You're in a tough situation, I suspect we on the outside have no idea...

Good luck

[george sugar]

I’m not sure who it was, Mark Twain or somebody, that said “They don’t understand because they don’t understand”. I’m okay with people forcefully expressing their opinion by yelling threats at my family and shouting me down if I try to reasonably respond. There was no place for me in this discussion, because people are more interested in saying things about which they do not know the facts, by parroting the things they have been told over the years that they should say. Even though I might disagree with what is said, it is right that they express themselves as they think best. But please don’t burn down my house or beat up my daughter in frustration.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying we are a firm with Bono as chairman and legions of Mother Theresa clones on the board. We are a commercial entity whose goal is profitability, but contrary to the rhetoric of our detractors we will only achieve this through lawful, safe and ethical means. Because we are more competitive and successful than most, people call us names. Because we do so without worrying about the opinion of those who would gladly see us fail, to achieve their own goals and desires we become pariahs. Fair play, we take our solace in being around year after year so that we can absorb the catty remarks. But please leave our employees, specifically our pilots, alone. They are doing what they need to do for their families here in Canada, and are no more involved directly in this dispute than you are. I am more than willing to talk to anyone about my side of it, even if they don’t want to listen. Please leave our employees out of it. Sermon ends.

Sincerely,

George

[whipline]

George, do you think CargoJet is advancing our industry by undermining a legitimate and much deserved strike action? Are you sending your "guys/gals" into this? I don't think there's much point of a strike if someone else is willing to come in and move the freight.

[george sugar]

In my opinion, there is never much point to a strike. To lose a month’s pay to gain a couple percent over a few years does not add up, and to paralyze the firm that pays you that wage seems counter-productive; once customers go away they rarely come back, especially in tough times like we have now and particularly if you only have a few major clients to begin with. Of course, however, if the company subsequently fails the strikers say it is because the managers are incompetent.

Do you think it is advancing our industry, or society in general, for me to receive threatening phone calls, to be stalked to the hotel and to have my name and photo posted as a target of aggression, for doing the same thing that an American firm and its management pilots are doing at the gate beside me without any censure?

This whole thing is really a “did not, did so” type of exchange. Nothing I am going to write will change anyone’s mind, nor was that my aim. It was simply a case of not wanting to have silence from this quarter misinterpreted, and to ask that the correct people be engaged in any discussion and that the others be left out of it. There is really nothing more for me to add beyond that.

[Rockie]

In my opinion, there is never much point to a strike. To lose a month’s pay to gain a couple percent over a few years does not add up, and to paralyze the firm that pays you that wage seems counter-productive; once customers go away they rarely come back, especially in tough times like we have now and particularly if you only have a dozen major clients to begin with. Of course, however, if the company subsequently fails the strikers say it is because the managers are incompetent.

I agree that a strike often does not gain the current strikers back what they lost in being out of work, but where would we be if workers did not have the right to withdraw their services? Back to 1918 wages and working conditions. When it comes right down to it a strike benefits future employees much more than the current ones, and that is essential too.

I have yet to see a company go out of business because of its workers. On the other hand I have seen many go out of business because of poor management (and "management" includes "personel management"). Your bias as a senior manager is understandable even though you thought the same way long before you were a senior manager, but it is still a bias.

[TAWS]

Edited.... because I am through commenting on this matter.

Good luck to all involved in this situation.

TAWS

[SYT_YYZ]

In my honest opinion...

To those of you who scold the CargoJet pilot group and claim that everyone has a choice.. I say this,

Your'e right they do.. and they make the one that sits best with them. They are all relatively intelligent people, who would not have gotten to where they were today were they not. This means they have likely weighed their options, and made the choice they feel is best, regardless of whether or not you agree.

If you do not like your place of work, or the conditions that come along with it then fine. You have three choices..

1. Find work elsewhere
2. If you dont feel that you can find work elsewhere, be greatful for the job you have, and that god, luck, hard work or personal circumstance (whatever you believe in) has allowed you to provide for you family and self, where so many people in this world cannot.

Don't get me wrong, I dont see anything wrong with trying to better your situation for yourself and fellow employees, that is your PERSONAL CHOICE. (choice #3)

What I do see as wrong, is persecuting those who CHOSE not to.

Going after those who dont agree with you does not make anyone more sympathetic to any cause. It only makes you seem unreasonable, and distracts from the important issues.

Lastly... to you who is seemingly afraid to show your face but so quick to show the faces of others on your little website...
If you think you are doing the right thing by the hosting or creating of this site, then why not show your face...
If you cannot face your industry and peers, it only shows that you know deep down is it somehow wrong, and you are a hypocrite. (Spot-lighting others who you feel have wronged you, but not stepping forward to face those who may feel you have wronged them)

Oh and while your at it, why not post your phone number too, as you have so kindly done to the people on your website..

Kind Regards

SYT

[florch]

Dilbert Pickles,

Forgive my thickness, but “Cargojet as pilot group is (sic) fantastic bunch.”, but then “It's obvious nobody has a spine, anyone that did has left.”?

I think the first point Dilbert is making is that it's a great group to hang out with, fly with, have a beer with, but no one particularly wants to stick out their neck to speak out.

Have you considered that maybe your time at Cargojet has allowed you to go from where you were to where you are now?

I think some were hoping that at some point once you're flying a jet you wouldn't still be paying your dues, or do you feel that Cargojet is a stepping stone versus career company?

Our pilot group knows what they are doing, the truth of what they are told, and the reason they choose, or do not choose, to have some disinterested third-party with no personal stake in their lives to “represent their best interests” in the fulfillment of agendas that have nothing to do with their needs.

The truth of what they are told is that they were promised a raise, and bumped up one year on the pay scale, but future cost of living raises disappeared. Or that the scheduling and seniority rules change according to the needs of the moment, like when there needs to be layoffs. Want me to go on?

Choosing to bargain collectively would result in what the men and women of Cargojet were to make of it. It could be constructive and provide them with input into safety, security, peer help, benefits as well as wages and working conditions (maybe a right to say "no" on a scheduled day off even). Furthermore, this a choice that is theirs to make, and while it may affect you, it is not for you to say what they choose to do - to bargain collectively is a right in Canada. God knows companies do it - that's what IATA's for, no?

Maybe they feel that they can talk to those that can actually do something about it rather than finding a proxy that promises the moon and stars but delivers only adversity.

You mean the trapdoor, er I mean - open door policy? Maybe they don't want to feel intimidated, or labeled a troublemaker or complainer, or take a knife to a gun fight.

[whipline]

I'm sorry George. You were being stalked, harrassed and threatened but you feel its ok to send in your pilots to fly under those conditions? When you were crossing the picket line what did you think would happen? I'm surprised you weren't chased around with a baseball bat.

I think the only ones defending your position are other CargoJet employees. To brand the rest of us as card carrying brothers and sisters wishing ill will for your company is a bit of a stretch. Glad the strike looks like its over.

[george sugar]

Perhaps the Cargojet pilots defend their company because they are knowledgeable of the facts and are in the best position to decide what is best for them. We didn’t “send our pilots”, the Chief Pilot and I operated all week. It is permitted to have in-house management pilots operate trips during a strike, and an American firm also sent their management pilots to operate flights, but when we do the same we are chastised because people make assumptions not considering the facts of the matter. And if you think physical violence and vandalism are acceptable negotiating tactics then there’s not much more to say other than I am also glad that is has been settled.

As for Florch, I did already say they have the right to choose, and they choose not to. For you to label them spineless because they choose not to bargain collectively perhaps commits the same error whipline accuses me of.

Another choice our pilots make is whether to stay. Most do see Cargojet as a career company, and some see it as a stepping-stone. What can be said is that qualifications and experience gained at our company might make folks more employable at larger airlines than they were before; it does not mean that they must take up those offers, nor do we want them to, but we understand that some will make that choice.

I would be interested to hear what Rockie has to say about the seniority question. We had a system in place when the company started, one that worked when the company was growing. In the face of the impending downturn, we had to adjust our size to fit our business. Under the old system, we would have had a situation where an employee who had been with us for seven months would have been kept on, and an employee that had been with us for seven years since the inception of the company would have been laid off. We chose to go to a strict date-of-hire system. Not everyone was happy with this choice, but it was the one that was felt to be the best of a number of difficult options. And I surmise that if a union executive had been involved they would have concurred.

As for the “open door/trap door” allegation, it is simply not true, and repeating it over and over will not make it so.

These are troubled times everywhere, and fortunately things seem to be getting better, albeit very tentatively. However, if we do not continually make some difficult choices to adjust to the reality of the present, the future that depends on the revenue and yields of today will not come to pass. If those choices leave us open to criticism that is the way it is. Fortunately, the folks at Cargojet that have an actual stake in the situation understand these things better than those that don’t.

[florch]

1. I never called anyone spineless. I left reasons for possibly not wanting to stick your neck out.
2. Your spin on the seniority issue seems a rosy oversimplification. We can agree to disagree on whether it was fairness or convenience, or whether it was set up to turn into a wedge in the first place.