Questions about CMA

[aV1aTOr]

I`m going to steer this one back on course, since it`s turned into a MINE`S BIGGER THAN YOURS match.

The pay at CMA is not great, that has been established. However it`s not 19.5 as has been claimed. FO`s start at 25 and move up yearly, and captains pay starts at 40 and move up yearly, or per 500 hours. Most guys fly between 600 (yvr) to 1000 (yyc) per year. per dium depends on the pairing flown, usually around 300 - 500 more per month. Training dept. guys (line-in-doc capt, flight trianing, check-a, ground school instructors) get a little more gravy on top of that (esp flight training
and sim guys). Bonds are only for going on the D328.

The company has it`s down points (so does Cathay and British Airways) but overall is run like an airline. Pilots don`t load bags, file their own flightplans, wash airplanes, show up not knowing where they`re flying, fight for airplanes to get fixed, or get pressured to fly in ANYTHING they`re not comfortable with. Safety culture is very strong, and morale is generally pretty good. We bid schedules based on seniority (this includes vacation, days off and type of pairings). Schedules in yvr are cushy, yyc and yxs guys work harder (but log time faster). Travel benefits are OK (AC, Westjet, Lufthansa, Cathay(limited), US Airways, Southwest, Horizon, Pasco, Hawkair, Canadian North, and a bunch others).

IFR everywhere, very strong CRM based SOPs, no autopilots in the 1900s (read: great hands and feet experience), safe airplanes, level D sim experience (more valuable than you might think) and 12500+ lbs turboprop experience. Captains routinely hired at AC, WJ, Cathay (1-2 a year or so) Porter, and both Captains and FOs routinely to Jazz.

If you`re considering the company, keep in mind that they get hundreds of resumes every month, and also keep in mind that of all the CMA bashers on here, most probably fall into one of two categories: they want to work there but haven`t been called, or they work somewhere with better pay and feel license to bash anyone who isn`t there yet. It`s an insecurity thing.

Overall, good company, not the best out there, but a great career stepping stone. If you want to settle at a company like this long term, do a little more research on the other guys as well.

[loopa]

I hate getting into these pointless discussions with people who dont know what they are talking about.

O.K. I think I know something about flying and teaching flying so let me give you my thoughts on this.

Instructing is without any doubt a very important occupation, however the industry has it ass backwards in the qualifications department.

One can start instructing right out of flight school and the quality of their flying and thinking abilities can be anywhere from excellent to pathetic.

I would suggest that the qualifications to be a flight instructor should require the candidate to have been working in the industry for at least five years.

The low quality of piloting skills I see in far to many pilots in general aviation and also commercial aviation is depressing.

., I am down with you 100% on this post. Here's a question though, if instructing is ruled out as an option; should every 200 hour wonder be working the ramp? I guess my question is that the newbs have start somewhere; what would be a good choice for them aside from instruction if we rule out bush flying (north) and ramp work?


Thanks for your insight

[Chuck Ellsworth]

., I am down with you 100% on this post. Here's a question though, if instructing is ruled out as an option; should every 200 hour wonder be working the ramp? I guess my question is that the newbs have start somewhere; what would be a good choice for them aside from instruction if we rule out bush flying (north) and ramp work?

It is quite simple loopa the newly licensed pilots should start flying for 703 / 704 operators as pilots using the new commercial pilots license they qualified for.

I personally favor having new pilots start as FO's learning from experienced pilots.

However there are many entry level flying jobs that are ideal for the new commercial pilot to get their start learning on the less complex and demanding airplanes and jobs.

To support this idea that instructing is an entry level position for new commercial pilots to build time and experience is flawed thinking.

Not only do the students deserve better so do the new commercial pilots...the pay scale tells the story...it's sad really.

I have owned several companies including a flight school with both fixed and rotary wing aircraft and been in management up to airlines for decades and had hoped the industry would have moved past this myopic thinking that is still prevalent in the 21 st. century.

Here's a question though, if instructing is ruled out as an option; should every 200 hour wonder be working the ramp?

I do not know one pilot who spent tens of thousands of dollars learning to be a commercial pilot who's goal was to work the ramp, therefore logic dictates that the answer is ..no.

However if they can find a job in the maintenance department learning how to fix airplanes that is a real plus as a starting position as the things they learn are directly related to how to operate an aircraft.

Ramp work is a last resort but if the company is a good one and there is a reasonable expectation of flying enough to remain current until a full time flying position is available then it is better than never getting to fly.

What think thee of those comments loopa?

Actually the question is not only for loopa I would like comments from flight instructors as I don't interact with them anymore on the flight training forum.

[loopa]

I like your thinking; it's quite similar to the European system

Their instructors are senior pilots with years of experience and the kids walk into 737's as F/O's for a few years before taking command. Then those kids retire as senior airline pilots and a portion of them become instructors... Circle of Life.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Canada is trapped in a mindset that protects the bureaucracy that oversees flight training and there is not much hope that anything will change.

Here is a question for all you instructors.

Would the industry be better off if you did not need to go through the mind boggling process of getting an FTU OC and you could start your own school like they can in the USA?

If the need for a FTU OC was removed I would consider starting another flight school.

[duplicate2]

I love how ever since . started his self-imposed ban in the flight training forum he uses every opportunity to jack threads in every other forum to talk about flight training.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Most of these discussions are correlated to other issues and I would suggest that poor pilot pay is related to an over supply of new pilots.

Therefore I would suggest that the puppy mill method of training pilots that in many instances are poorly trained is linked to poor starting pay.

My position on the training industry should be well understood by now.

For those of you who do not know where I stand on this subject it is quite simple, my standards for flight training are far higher than what is churned out onto the market in Canada in numbers that far exceed the need for new pilots.

Maybe a higher training standard across the board would result in higher pay for new pilots?

One can not improve on the standard of training unless the instructor pool is of a high standard.

Reading what is posted on the flight training forum does not convince me that there are enough instructors who are of a high standard in the FTU's in Canada.

Therefore the discussion regarding the pay scale at CMA may be directly related to the quality of new pilots that are available.

[aV1aTOr]

. I suggest you start a new thread in the Flight Training forum as this is off topic to the thread.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Yeh, sorry for the thread drift aV1aTOr but I doubt I will be posting in the flight training forum as I really don't have much in common with most of the flight instructors.

However I wonder how you came to this conclusion?

If you`re considering the company, keep in mind that they get hundreds of resumes every month, and also keep in mind that of all the CMA bashers on here, most probably fall into one of two categories: they want to work there but haven`t been called, or they work somewhere with better pay and feel license to bash anyone who isn`t there yet. It`s an insecurity thing.

I assure you that some of us are not impressed with the pay scale and it is not through insecurity.

[aV1aTOr]

., please don't take offense; notice I said CMA bashers. There are plenty of people who have a problem with low pay. I'm one of them. When I bring up insecurity, I'm referring to the guys who troll threads and pick on companies over pay when they have nothing else to add to the discussion (usually because they don't know anything about the company other than the pay scale). I'm not calling anyone with a dislike for low pay insecure. I'm simply warning prospective candidates to take disproportionately negative comments with a grain of salt, because I can assure you - the trollers will show themselves.

[Randleman]

No where, because we all know instructing doesn't count as real flying!

I hate getting into these pointless discussions with people who dont know what they are talking about. If you think instructing doesn't count as "real flying" then explain to me how flicking on your autopilot, sitting back, and counting down on the DME is. Teaching spins, steep turns, slowflight, etc etc etc. . is as real as it gets. What do you think training captains at majors did in their early stages of their career? maybe flight istructing? many (and i wouldnt be far off to say 'most') regionals want people with past flight instruction experience. yes there is the case of too much (3000 hrs on a 152 is excessive) but when you are instrucing you are constantly simulating emergencies procedures, practising airwork, monitoring / critiquing, and is probably the best form of early CRM training you could do. instrucing proves you know your sh*t and you'll most likely do quite well in an interview. several captains at majors i know began not too long ago as instructors and the guys who started throwing bags are . . . well still throwing bags and wondering why the wing tips curve up.

Actually Skyhawk, not taking anything away from instructing, but your idea of flicking on the autopilot and counting down the DME is a bit skewed. Passenger flying involves a lot more, it involves flying to Vancouver all of a sudden from Winnipeg, having to gather the charts for it, make sure all your manifests are correct, and than dealing with a thunderstorm up at FL 250 at 3 am in the morning, and having to make heavy decisions based on that. That's the challenge, and you don't get much of that experience as an instructor. Instructors get more experience doing hands on flying, not so much making big decisions.

Btw, the original poster was kidding (read his posts). I take it you are an instructor, but go dispatch for a day and I am pretty sure you will find out there is a whole heck of a lot about being a 703/704 pilot that you didn't know. Heck, who am I to say this, I don't even know, all I know is that there is a lot about Air Taxi and Commuter that I don't know...a LOT more than I thought I didn't know, and that's the only thing I know about it.

[aV1aTOr]

Agreed Randleman. As valuable as teaching slow flight and illusions created by drift is, passenger line flying is far from 'watching DME click down'. Those winter days when instructors peek out the window at the rain/snow mix coming down sideways and cancel their flying for the day, we're out there. Along with counting DME comes deicing, avioding imbedded CBs, dealing with intoxicated pax, and having your destination, company alternate, and the airport you just took off from close within 5 minutes due to snow removal and RFI (yes it happened last December). Those experiences earn the days like today, when we enjoyed the unrestricted view of the Coast range and watched the DME click down.
Rant over.
Disclaimer: I work with a number of ex-instructors who are extremely professional and skilled, and know their IFR inside and out. Absolutely nothing against them.

[Randleman]

Agreed Randleman. As valuable as teaching slow flight and illusions created by drift is, passenger line flying is far from 'watching DME click down'. Those winter days when instructors peek out the window at the rain/snow mix coming down sideways and cancel their flying for the day, we're out there. Along with counting DME comes deicing, avioding imbedded CBs, dealing with intoxicated pax, and having your destination, company alternate, and the airport you just took off from close within 5 minutes due to snow removal and RFI (yes it happened last December). Those experiences earn the days like today, when we enjoyed the unrestricted view of the Coast range and watched the DME click down.
Rant over.
Disclaimer: I work with a number of ex-instructors who are extremely professional and skilled, and know their IFR inside and out. Absolutely nothing against them.

Just curious, what did you do when your airports closed down? And which ones were they?

[aV1aTOr]

Departed Vancouver for Campbell River (which closed for RFI), diverted to Comox (only to be told not to land as the airport was out of type 4), at which point YVR closed completely for snow removal. Diverted to Port Hardy only to land with no company personnel, no ground power, and no secured area for our pax. Had to pay for Jet A with my visa.

[CBSW]

I rarely comment on this forum..but I decided to chime in on this one

Skyhawk?

Are you saying all rampies never advance their careers? If thats the case, you are seriously mistaken. I've flown with some exceptional captains/ trainers who have never had an instructors rating. I can assure you they do know their stuff and then some. These individuals would most likely teach your Boundary Bay crew more than a few lessons about instructing and flying! As Cat said, these more experienced pilots need to be the ones who are teaching! Unfortunately, for the new students their experience doesen't come cheap.

*This isn't to say that all new instructors do not know their stuff as well..some do..*

Depending what the company does with their rampies, pilots and swampers the ramp can be a learning experience..

The said newbie can learn about securing loads, weather mins, how to load aircraft and the list goes on.. Again, depends on the company and how much the said rampie wants to pump the fellow more experienced pilots for information.. You also develop a work ethic on the ramp that some people in this industry seriously lack.


Good Day!

[Lurch]

Wow we went from shitty pay, to Instructors need more experience before they instruct, to Rampies are better then instructors.

We just need to work in paying for your job/bonds and we have covered it all in one thread.

Lurch

[CBSW]

LOL Lurch


I've got the icing.. who'se gonna add the cherry!

[Invertago]

Wow we went from shitty pay, to Instructors need more experience before they instruct, to Rampies are better then instructors.

We just need to work in paying for your job/bonds and we have covered it all in one thread.

Lurch

So... what you're saying is that yours is bigger then the rest of ours combined?

[Lurch]

Wow we went from shitty pay, to Instructors need more experience before they instruct, to Rampies are better then instructors.

We just need to work in paying for your job/bonds and we have covered it all in one thread.

Lurch

So... what you're saying is that yours is bigger then the rest of ours combined?

Maybe not combined

Lurch

[aV1aTOr]

Have to agree with CBSW (even though this is off topic). Yes instructors and the like learn more about flying an airplane then a rampie would, however there is an entirely different side to commercial flying that you cannot learn until you are immersed in an operation. If the rampie has a commercial license, he/she already knows how to fly an airplane. What is learned while ramping can be invaluable towards flying in a communter/airline operation, and in some company's opinions, may be more valuable than someone from outside with more hours in a log book.

Let's not turn this into a 'to ramp/not to ramp' conversation though. (I guess that's hypocritical considering my previous paragraph )

[Phileas Fogg]

I`m going to steer this one back on course, since it`s turned into a MINE`S BIGGER THAN YOURS match.

The pay at CMA is not great, that has been established. However it`s not 19.5 as has been claimed. FO`s start at 25 and move up yearly, and captains pay starts at 40 and move up yearly, or per 500 hours. Most guys fly between 600 (yvr) to 1000 (yyc) per year. per dium depends on the pairing flown, usually around 300 - 500 more per month. Training dept. guys (line-in-doc capt, flight trianing, check-a, ground school instructors) get a little more gravy on top of that (esp flight training
and sim guys). Bonds are only for going on the D328.

The company has it`s down points (so does Cathay and British Airways) but overall is run like an airline. Pilots don`t load bags, file their own flightplans, wash airplanes, show up not knowing where they`re flying, fight for airplanes to get fixed, or get pressured to fly in ANYTHING they`re not comfortable with. Safety culture is very strong, and morale is generally pretty good. We bid schedules based on seniority (this includes vacation, days off and type of pairings). Schedules in yvr are cushy, yyc and yxs guys work harder (but log time faster). Travel benefits are OK (AC, Westjet, Lufthansa, Cathay(limited), US Airways, Southwest, Horizon, Pasco, Hawkair, Canadian North, and a bunch others).

IFR everywhere, very strong CRM based SOPs, no autopilots in the 1900s (read: great hands and feet experience), safe airplanes, level D sim experience (more valuable than you might think) and 12500+ lbs turboprop experience. Captains routinely hired at AC, WJ, Cathay (1-2 a year or so) Porter, and both Captains and FOs routinely to Jazz.

If you`re considering the company, keep in mind that they get hundreds of resumes every month, and also keep in mind that of all the CMA bashers on here, most probably fall into one of two categories: they want to work there but haven`t been called, or they work somewhere with better pay and feel license to bash anyone who isn`t there yet. It`s an insecurity thing.

Overall, good company, not the best out there, but a great career stepping stone. If you want to settle at a company like this long term, do a little more research on the other guys as well.

Nope, bonds are also for 1900 (unless you start from the ramp, not sure)...was offered a job and they wanted me to sign a one-year bond for 10,000...I declined.

[aV1aTOr]

I stand corrected, as I looked into this as well. I was not offered one when I stared years ago, but I guess they are asking for them for the 1900 now as well. Must be in light of a couple years ago when turnover was very high and captains were being hired direct entry to keep up, as well as high time FOs. They must have decided to continue the practice since then.

[oates76]

Is there anyone who is currently in the "tier 2" program? Ie, you have your CPL/MIFR and are working the ramp for CMA with prospects of an FO position. Just wondering if there has been any movement frmo ramp to right seat in the last little while or if this program is even operating anymore?

Thanks

[whiteguy]

Is there anyone who is currently in the "tier 2" program? Ie, you have your CPL/MIFR and are working the ramp for CMA with prospects of an FO position. Just wondering if there has been any movement frmo ramp to right seat in the last little while or if this program is even operating anymore?

Thanks

I think 2 guys went up to the right seat in the spring/summer.

[Justwannafly]

.......and the guys who started throwing bags are . . . well still throwing bags and wondering why the wing tips curve up.

hehe is it because they threw too many bags on the plane?