FO's loging PIC time?

[LeftseatFO]

There's a bunch of companies across Canada that let there FO's log PIC time if there PPC'd on the aircraft so they can meet insurance and contract requirements so they can be upgraded to Captain. Just wondering how someone would explain lots of PIC time on a aircraft when they'd never been Captain on type?

[Hedley]

http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/regse ... htm#421_11

421.11 Airline Transport Licence Training (Pilot-in-command Under Supervision)

(1) All air operators using large aeroplanes may institute programs of supervision to allow co-pilots to credit flight time as pilot-in-command time.

(2) Air operators using small aeroplanes and Air operators using helicopters may institute a program of supervision referred to in subsection (1) provided that they have received authorization to do so from the Minister

[BTD]

I swear I'm going to cry.

If you are logging PIC then you are the captain. If you are logging PIC and you are not the captain then stop logging. Its illegal except for one specific situation. The one Hedley pointed out above. But I get the feeling you're not talking about that. Please tell me this all makes sense. It doesn't matter what the company lets you do. They also might let you break minimums or your duty day.

[just curious]

Just wondering how someone would explain lots PIC time on a aircraft when they'd never been Captain on type?

Well, we'd just explain that they were either mis-informed, or liars. Simply put, if you are not the Captain of an aircraft, and you are logging time, you are noting it as SIC, and including in your remarks column PIC under Supervision, per Ops Man 1.2.33 or whatever section your ops manual shows it to be. With any degree of luck, you would be noting those same hours on a line indoc sheet for the Captain's constructive comments.

Perhaps you may wish to read this:
http://www.langleyflyingschool.com/Page ... ncing.html

Failing that, then this:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=56471

JC

[LeftseatFO]

Doesn't Doc's company let their FO's log PIC any leg they fly?

[just curious]

I'd have a wee look at those pesky CARs in the near future, say, before you fill out your logbook next time.

[bobrun]

There's nothing unusual about FO loging time as PIC (under supervision). It's done all over the world! The airline I fly with has all it's FO holding a P1 rating (means a PIC rating), and when they fly as PF they can log the time as P1 u/s (or PIC under supervision). The airline has the proper documents/training/aircrafts to do so however, so I'm not saying any FO on a navajo is allowed to do that!

[BTD]

Hey Just Curious, do you have a kleenex I can borrow?

In Canada, there can never be two actual PICs. I don't know the specifics but I'd imagine in Docs company they fly as co-captains. Each crew member is qualified as a captain, and they alternate legs, and alternate who logs PIC. Who evers name goes in the Journey log under PIC, is the one who logs the PIC and whoever's is under the SIC logs the SIC. This so simple it hurts.

In Canada, only one person can log PIC, and even if that person is in the back taking a dump, he is still the PIC and the F/O is still SIC. If a company or person is logging PIC and their name is not in that column on the JL they are falsifying their logbook.

Designation of Pilot-in-command and Second-in-command

703.87 An air operator shall designate for each flight a pilot-in-command and, where the crew includes two pilots, a pilot-in-command and a second-in-command.

BTD

[BTD]

There's nothing unusual about FO loging time as PIC (under supervision). It's done all over the world! The airline I fly with has all it's FO holding a P1 rating (means a PIC rating), and when they fly as PF they can log the time as P1 u/s (or PIC under supervision). The airline has the proper documents/training/aircrafts to do so however, so I'm not saying any FO on a navajo is allowed to do that!

This is not the case here in Canada. The only time PIC under supervision is used (in regards to logging hours) is for credit towards the ATPL. During Line indoc, line checks etc, only one person logs the PIC.

[LeftseatFO]

Hey Just Curious, do you have a kleenex I can borrow?
I don't know the specifics but I'd imagine in Docs company they fly as co-captains. Each crew member is qualified as a captain, and they alternate legs, and alternate who logs PIC.

So lets continue with this line of thought, you have a PPC, 200 hours and the your captain says he doesn't need the PIC time. So, He/She says that you can log PIC for the legs you fly. Are you really PIC?

[Hedley]

[altiplano]

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[altiplano]

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[Invertago]

I believe you have to have and be wearing the 4 golden bars, if you only have 3 bars it is SIC time. If your captain is nice, he'll say "you have control, and here, wear these" then you can officially log PIC.

If you don't have any golden bars, you're probably a bush pilot or instructor not an actual commercial pilot so don't bother logging it anyways.


Don't think this is in the CARs, but it is common public knowledge.

[BTD]

Hey Just Curious, do you have a kleenex I can borrow?
I don't know the specifics but I'd imagine in Docs company they fly as co-captains. Each crew member is qualified as a captain, and they alternate legs, and alternate who logs PIC.

So lets continue with this line of thought, you have a PPC, 200 hours and the your captain says he doesn't need the PIC time. So, He/She says that you can log PIC for the legs you fly. Are you really PIC?

Yes legally you can, as long as he is logging SIC and you have done your line indoc etc etc. Is it a good idea. I don't know, but with 200 hrs depending on the type of aircraft it may not be.

In addition, if the Captain is saying who is logging PIC/SIC...and deciding when it all happens. Is buddy with 200 hrs really the PIC anyway, or does he just want that column filled in the logbook even if he isn't acquiring the experince one would expect as PIC.

I think I just got hooked.

[Clyde River]

If you have done a PPC, ie a Capt SIM ride, you are a Captain from a TC point of view. You may not be turned loose by your employer though. Various companies have their own requirements in the process to handing you the keys, so to speak. Logging the time is a separate issue.

You can log the time as Captain time under supervision in the left seat as PIC. You can use that time toward minimum times for such things a CAT II/III approaches PIC minimum time, etc.

[LeftseatFO]

At my company there are some senior FOs left seat checked and with enough experience to fly as PIC. Some captains make them sit right seat all day and be FOs, some captains fly the shift "co-captain".

Whatever works for your comfort level I suppose. But if the guy is capable and has my respect he should be flying his legs left seat and can put his name in the book and log the PIC if he doesn't have his A's yet. I don't mind logging a few more SIC hours at this point... I'm not telling them what to do and don't do as they are capable and have to act as PIC if they want to log it so.

So how much PIC time would it be alright for a senior FO to log before they get upgraded to Captain and is allowed to fly with an FO?

[just curious]

That would really depend on several things:

• Does your company have in their ops manual the provision for a pilot-in-command under supervision program?
• If yes, do they have a training program, criteria and a method of tracking both hours and progress?
• Is an ATPL required for Captaincy according to the AOC?
• What type of aircraft do you operate, and do you function with an FO PPC or PCC or do you have a captain PPC?
• Do you have training captains who routinely fly the line... and is your usual captain listed in the ops manual as a training captain?
• What is you insurance company's limit for captaincy, and who can sit in the left seat?

If you can answer these for us, then we can potentially advise you. Till then re-read the posts above.

JC

[LeftseatFO]

That would really depend on several things:

• Does your company have in their ops manual the provision for a pilot-in-command under supervision program?
• If yes, do they have a training program, criteria and a method of tracking both hours and progress?
• Is an ATPL required for Captaincy according to the AOC?
• What type of aircraft do you operate, and do you function with an FO PPC or PCC or do you have a captain PPC?
• Do you have training captains who routinely fly the line... and is your usual captain listed in the ops manual as a training captain?
• What is you insurance company's limit for captaincy, and who can sit in the left seat?

JC

No
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No; just a contract requirement.
Non Type Rated. Left seat PPC
Yes. I don't think so
I don't know. Captain or FO

[just curious]

Okay, your answers are a little sparse, and the original question was a bit awkwardly worded, but I think I have it: You work for a company that doesn't require an ATPL for captaincy. But one or more of your clients and perhaps the insurance agency does. You have a left seat PPC, but fly in the right seat.

Would that be a reasonable summary of your situation?

If it is, then as far as the TC side of things go, you could drive the machine as a captain provided that whoever is with you has right seat training (Generally for captains, an approach an engine failure and a takeoff and landing in the right seat). All of those legs could legally be counted as PIC for the ATPL, and eventual upgrade. Two potential problems: Your company's insurance policy, and your client's contract with the company.

Let's say you had a flight for a client to go to Fort Lake from Kasechaplace. All you had to do was pick up two telephone techs and a 150 pound box. The flight over is empty. The client may not care. Good, if you ask. Your insurance company will probably care a lot. Assuming nothing went wrong, (and the co-pilot with you was in fact a training captain) then the chief pilot, at the end of the day, might feel quite comfortable signing your log for your ATPL application, and your upgrade.

I believe your approach to this if it is genuine should be more proactive. And simple. Ask your chief pilot to talk to the company's Principal Operations Inspector to get the authority for PIC U/s. It really isn't difficult, and benefits the company for more than just you. There will be other FO's. After all, eventually you will upgrade. If you have a PIC u/s program, then you have someone who meets the insurance company's dictates for captaincy, and an ATPL-rated captain for the client contract. The company cost is simply the reprint of that section of the Ops Manual. Kinko's will do that for about three bucks.

During the course of a year's flying you should be able to accumulate all the 200 hours of PICUS to gain most of the 200 hours for the ATPL PIC requirement. With that in hand, then it would be easier to persuade your insurance company to give your company a one-off waiver to allow you to fly the dead legs as I described as PIC. Insurance companies don't always randomly dictate what companies must do. And they often drop in and ask questions. Showing that you made the effort and did your homework is the sort of thing companies look for in a captain anyway, and so do insurance companies.

Try and do an end run around them might see the insurance company go ballistic and actively block your captaincy. Make the effort.

Having said all this, if you do NOT have a captain's PPC on the aircraft, then PICUS with the ops manual amendment or renting a cherokee is your option.

JC

[CelBatrin]

If your making command decisions like this guy then why not?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmxiZZZ-2_4

[Liquid Charlie]

seems that this discussion has me wondering why more don't just fly the bush for a while -- a super cub, 180, and moving to the heavy metal - haha -- on floats will produce far better memories and be far more useful than sitting in the right seat of any light twin until you can get that license to avoid that seat - PIC time is the key -- trying to end run the system to me just seems wrong.

[4hrstovegas]

Interesting timing. I JUST went into TC a few days ago for the "interview" required to conduct PIC under supervision for my company. During the discussion, our POI told me that BOTH pilots log PIC, and therefore, both are on the line for any violations. The supervised PIC signs the paperwork (our JL does not designate Captain/Copilot, just Crew), does all the planning, etc. As for logging time, he/she logs only airtime as PIC (because the plane in question can't be taxied from the right seat) and the balance as SIC. Straight from the horse's mouth.

[just curious]

Nice to see TC hiring the front end of a few horses.

[The Old Fogducker]

Your POI must be 100% ex-military and directly into Transport then. I'd suggest he speak to the GA folks so they could point him in the right direction for living life in the civvy world with respect to who is responsible for an aircraft.

The CF allows anybody and everybody to log PIC time if they are qualified on type and are on a flight. I had occasion to speak to 3 gentlemen in Maritime Air Group and learned the Aircraft Commander logs PIC and may or may not touch the controls because he also has other duties. The PF in the left seat logs PIC, as does the newbie Sprog in the right seat. So comparing logbooks, you have 3 PICs at any one time. I wondered if they made all decisions based on a series of Rock, Paper, Scissors games. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P90sZu5CbcE

Great system for getting a big bang for the buck in the logbook....hells bells, I even have about .4 PIC in an Aurora ... those resource corporate flight depts will snap me up right away with that info out in the public domain. I'll stand-by for the flood of PMs looking to hire me.

The guy who carries the can with his signature on the line logs the PIC time. The other person logs the F/O time unless in accordance with a PIC Under Supervision program as was described above. The authority and designation of PIC cannot be sub-delegated.

OFD