canadian north announcement.

[sky's the limit]

So, now YZF has a Walmart and air "Walmart", er Westjet, providing them service

You realize that Air Canada and WestJet fares are virtually identical these days? WestJet isn't really an LCC anymore, it's just the public perception.

AC fares are lower beause of WJ... and WJ still proudly calls themselves a LCC.

Couldn't agree more, the bar has consistently been lowered, not raised. Our whole society is engaged in a race to the bottom; cheaper, disposable, more, more, more... Unfortunately everyone wants it regardless of the realities of location, I can't believe how Whitehorse has changed over the years because of it.

stl

[Changes in Latitudes]

"

As a seasoned flier I respect her opinion.
jj

I have to check with my wife before I post things too.



Got a pretty big day here, going to Home Depot. Maybe Bed Bath and Beyond, that's if there's time. See ya there!

[double-j]

I did not say flying to the truly northern communities shouldn't cost more. I said flying to yeg-yzf two relatively busy, southern airports (relatively) shouldn't be outlandish. And if you have to charge ridiculous fees to subsidize another northern route, than re-read my reply.

[double-j]

"

As a seasoned flier I respect her opinion.
jj

I have to check with my wife before I post things too.



Got a pretty big day here, going to Home Depot. Maybe Bed Bath and Beyond, that's if there's time. See ya there!

Yup. sure do! She is an engineer and project manager. I have nothing but respect for her opinion. Now some of the guys on here, now thats a different story!

[ettw]

Well this is an interesting thread.

There are a number of things in play in the North.

Market size. Some of the routes are pretty thin but this can be offset by freight. I don't know the numbers but I'm guessing that in alot of cases, the pax revenue is the icing on the cake.

Fuel. The last fuel slip I signed had a price of $1.74! Now I will also point out that I don't know whether or not we get a better rate. i don't think so.

Labour costs. Let me tell you food is crazy expensive up north. They're not kidding about the 12.00 for 3 bags of milk. The housing costs are insane as well.

So lets go back to the Southern Airlines. The have better market sizes generally, fuel prices, labour costs, etc. It's not surprising that they can charge less.

Support your Northern Airlines and write to Medve or Bateman if you really think we're gouging the market on the ticket price.

Cheers,

ETTW

[FICU]

my wife flew you guys twice a week from yyc-ymm for two years on the long lake project. I think she called your service "indifferent."

As a seasoned flier I respect her opinion.

Don't even get me started on the lap-joint inspections while the aircraft was boarded or the corn-broom deice in yyc!

You like to rag on westjet as being walmart but you guys are truly bush.

And you truly like to sling mud!

I'm impressed your wife is "seasoned" enough to know what lap joints are and the kind of service offered on a charter depends on what the client wants to pay for. Corn broom ? I know people who have told me your company departed with frost on the wings, not just the spoilers, on more than one occasion. One way to save money and offer $55 fares I guess. You call us bush but keep going down the road you are and we'll be calling you "JetsGo"!

Shall we continue or get back on topic?

[EastCoaster]

Okay... wow... I'm not into mud slinging as it's way too similar to our current "race to the bottom" that the airline industry in general loves to love.

One of the main points for my post was to seek you support. I guess it's clear that everyone has their own side. I don't feel that way. I simply think that IF Westjet seriously wanted to serve this market with a good product rather than just go in and run others out of town, they'd have simply signed the deal with Canadian North the week before they announced service to Yellowknife. They would have enjoyed the ability to sell connection service all over the North with entry points in Ottawa, Edmonton, and Calgary. Would have made sense, IF they weren't just looking to gain market share on Air Canada.

Point two is that despite all of the negativity on the cbc boards, there is a whole lot of positive comments. The negative comments are mostly centered around the Turboprop Service in the North where the fuel is 1.70 a litre, and Infrastructure costs are through the roof. Try setting up a station in one of the communities and see what the costs of serving a market up there really is. Make sure you get your glycol brought up on the sealift! It's not only the airlines that charge plenty up that way. Buy yourself a bottle of Ocean Spray cranberry cocktail in Resolute, or get a hotel in Hall Beach. It's simply the costs of doing business in the North.

Point three is that prior to Westjet entering the Yellowknife - Edmonton market, the base fares were exactly where they are now, even on Westjet! The base fare on that run on Westjet flights appears to be 300.00 ONE WAY. With the current seat sales, people are able to book at 99.00 or 119.00 but sooner or later, these sales will dry up and the people of the north are right back to where they started, minus the Northern Standard of Service they've come to like.

[CanadaEH]

One of the main points for my post was to seek you support. I guess it's clear that everyone has their own side. I don't feel that way. I simply think that IF Westjet seriously wanted to serve this market with a good product rather than just go in and run others out of town, they'd have simply signed the deal with Canadian North the week before they announced service to Yellowknife. They would have enjoyed the ability to sell connection service all over the North with entry points in Ottawa, Edmonton, and Calgary. Would have made sense, IF they weren't just looking to gain market share on Air Canada.

It's nice to see such dedicated support for an airline you obviously love, but your view is very narrow minded. Westjet seriously does want to serve this market because its now flying to YZF year round. Those small communities in the North? Small potatoes. I see absolutely zero benefit to signing an agreement with Canadian North given the bigger opportunities that are out there (KLM, Cathay, BA, Southwest, etc.).

Point three is that prior to Westjet entering the Yellowknife - Edmonton market, the base fares were exactly where they are now, even on Westjet! The base fare on that run on Westjet flights appears to be 300.00 ONE WAY. With the current seat sales, people are able to book at 99.00 or 119.00 but sooner or later, these sales will dry up and the people of the north are right back to where they started, minus the Northern Standard of Service they've come to like.

I don't get what you're saying? Fares will be where the consumer wants them to be. It's called Revenue Management and you won't see WestJet gouging customers. If you think otherwise, I'd like you provide just one example where this is happening (try looking in markets where WestJet has a monopoly -- won't find any there).

[godsrcrazy]

Just make sure when you write to Medve use a Calgary address and when you write to Bateman use the Ottawa address. Truly northern airlines when their Presidents and CEO's live in southern communities.

I know Canadian north has a big office in Yellowknife no sure if it is head office or not.

I believe First air the airline of the north head office is Ottawa. I wonder if that is because it is CHEAPER to operate.

[FICU]

I know Canadian north has a big office in Yellowknife no sure if it is head office or not.

It is head office and the president and all senior management, with the exception of flight ops, live in Yellowknife.

People are losing jobs over this and many here seem to enjoy kicking them when they are down.

[CanadaEH]

People are losing jobs over this and many here seem to enjoy kicking them when they are down.

Where the heck do you read that??

[balfour]

People are losing jobs over this and many here seem to enjoy kicking them when they are down. [/quote]

Awe

[godsrcrazy]

I know Canadian north has a big office in Yellowknife no sure if it is head office or not.

It is head office and the president and all senior management, with the exception of flight ops, live in Yellowknife.

People are losing jobs over this and many here seem to enjoy kicking them when they are down.

Are you telling me Medvey moved to Yellowknife. When did she do that??

I certainly am not trying to kick anyone while they are down. But if you want to claim you are doing something like totally northern based and owned as these 2 companies say they are then everything should be totally northern owned and based.

Doesn't matter to me either way. Just sick of every time some one try's to compete in these markets everyone hammers them.

[double-j]

my wife flew you guys twice a week from yyc-ymm for two years on the long lake project. I think she called your service "indifferent."

As a seasoned flier I respect her opinion.

Don't even get me started on the lap-joint inspections while the aircraft was boarded or the corn-broom deice in yyc!

You like to rag on westjet as being walmart but you guys are truly bush.

And you truly like to sling mud!

I'm impressed your wife is "seasoned" enough to know what lap joints are and the kind of service offered on a charter depends on what the client wants to pay for. Corn broom ? I know people who have told me your company departed with frost on the wings, not just the spoilers, on more than one occasion. One way to save money and offer $55 fares I guess. You call us bush but keep going down the road you are and we'll be calling you "JetsGo"!

Im sure that happened..

Jetsgo... good one.

I am a captain on a 737 so I know what lap-joints are.

round and round it goes. Three threads of the same crap. Time will tell how this plays out.

jj

[FICU]

I am a captain on a 737 so I know what lap-joints are.

Am I supposed to be impressed? Next time don't word your posts to infer your wife witnessed the inspections.

I know you like to think Westjet is the greatest airline in existence and we are all beneath you but I have deadheaded with you guys dozens upon dozens of times and guess what... you aren't without fault. I just won't go into personal experiences I have had on your flights due to professional courtesy.

[AME 283]

Until the flying public realizes they can not fly for nothing, we will have trouble with our airlines. There are shortages of pilots and AMEs mainly due to $$$ the public wants cheap flights, the airlines give it to them, they have to cut some where and most times it is wages and maintenance. Automotive mechanics make more than AMEs, Westjet wages are among the lowest. Westjet is also doing what they accused air canada of "predatory pricing".

A Wallmart going into a town or city is not always a good thing, they usually put a lot of hard working people out of business, then buy foreign putting more out of business, then pay poor wages. Then we wounder why the standard of living went down !!!

A lot of Canadian aircraft have maintenance done outside of Canada due to cheap wages, or in Quebec due to subsidies, again all going to the cheapest bidder, why because the flying public want to fly for nothing. A $50.00 fare does not even pay for that joke we call security, nor the multi million dollar aircraft. Remember our friends with the green Douglas aircraft they were cheap, so cheap they were unsafe and went out of business

Wake up people

[double-j]

I am a captain on a 737 so I know what lap-joints are.

Am I supposed to be impressed? Next time don't word your posts to infer your wife witnessed the inspections.

I know you like to think Westjet is the greatest airline in existence and we are all beneath you but I have deadheaded with you guys dozens upon dozens of times and guess what... you aren't without fault. I just won't go into personal experiences I have had on your flights due to professional courtesy.

This is not that difficult concept to grasp. She told me what she saw, I understand the 737. I am not going into this further with you here.

The point is, like you said no airline is without fault. I get pissed when you guys seem to think you are the wardair of today while comparing us to a cost-cutting walmart. We are not all that different, any airline in canada.

Keep your stick on the ice.

j

[Liquid Charlie]

This is too funny -- It's OK and expected crews bitch and complain about their own airline - seems we are good at that but let someones voice an opinion -- -- lmfaooooooo

Business decisions and choices -- good and bad always flow down hill -- you know -- just like shit -

It's always nasty to see layoffs and cutbacks - I always liked to think that there were no company boundaries between pilots -- we always helped each other out in the past - it's a shame to see brand stupidity

[sarg]

Is a 737-200 combi a "modern" aircraft? I'm pretty sure Westjet didn't retire a 737-200 with the highest cycles of any 737 in the world because it was modern.

You really have to state this? I'm sure even Westjet, who are the smartest airline people around right, can't figure out how to get a 737NG onto a gravel runway in Cambridge Bay. :

FICU, to the best of my memory Cambridge is the only sked location that requires a gravel kit, which means you have options to operate more effiecient aircraft on most of your route structure.

One of the main points for my post was to seek you support. I guess it's clear that everyone has their own side. I don't feel that way. I simply think that IF Westjet seriously wanted to serve this market with a good product rather than just go in and run others out of town, they'd have simply signed the deal with Canadian North the week before they announced service to Yellowknife. They would have enjoyed the ability to sell connection service all over the North with entry points in Ottawa, Edmonton, and Calgary. Would have made sense, IF they weren't just looking to gain market share on Air Canada.

Eastcoaster, the story I heard was that a codeshare was the preferred option, but Canadian North for whatever reason said no thanks. If you want to service a market, you have two choices, codeshare or direct entery. Codeshare was tried, all that was left was direct entery.

I know people who have told me your company departed with frost on the wings, not just the spoilers, on more than one occasion. One way to save money and offer $55 fares

FICU, you and your "people" know what a cold soaked fuel frost exemptionis, right?

[EastCoaster]

FICU - This wasn't meant to be a mud slinging competition.

To those who've emailed and expressed support, I send my thanks.

As far as the codeshare option... I'm not "in the know" on what went on with that, but I'm fairly certain that neither Canadian North or First Air would refuse such an option at this point. These extra seats are gutting the northern airlines.

[tailgunner]

Sarg.. Is that the one that trumps the "clean wing concept", or the one that allows frost on the underside of the wing in the area of the fuel tanks, but only to a depth of less than 1/8th of an inch.....I don't see how taking off with frost on the upperside of the wing is exempted....., but you guys are owners, so what the heck.

[double-j]

Sarg.. Is that the one that trumps the "clean wing concept", or the one that allows frost on the underside of the wing in the area of the fuel tanks, but only to a depth of less than 1/8th of an inch.....I don't see how taking off with frost on the upperside of the wing is exempted....., but you guys are owners, so what the heck.

You are incorrect. The NG's have an exemption within a boundry area on top of the wing for fuel frost. Certain criteria apply.

[J Roc]

http://www.smartcockpit.com/data/pdfs/p ... _Frost.pdf

This is the only online literature I could find regarding "CSFF Permissible area".

I hope this helps.

[double-j]

To all the folks at Canadian North et al.

Upon reflecting, I would like to apologize for my part in the decline of this thread. My examples were below the belt, and did nothing to contribute to the constructiveness of my arguments.

I try to be constructive for the most part, but being human, sometimes emotions trump better judgement.

regards,

john

[balfour]

Sarg.. Is that the one that trumps the "clean wing concept", or the one that allows frost on the underside of the wing in the area of the fuel tanks, but only to a depth of less than 1/8th of an inch.....I don't see how taking off with frost on the upperside of the wing is exempted....., but you guys are owners, so what the heck.

1) get a clue.
2) then post.