Questions - Fifth Estate Safety Issues...

[newpilot]

I was reading the Fifth Estate thread, and a few posts spoke of SEIFR / Medevac / Night Circling Approaches as safety issues. As an uninformed student pilot I am curious what these problems actually are... Perhaps someone could enlighten me?

SEIFR: I think I've got this one figured out...clearly losing an engine (even in VMC) is an emergency, in IFR conditions away from an airport one cannot even begin to plan for a forced approach to a field/road/whatever. Is there any more to this?

Medevac: I understand what medevac flights are, but haven't a clue how this is a safety issue...? Perhaps I've misunderstood something in the thread...

Night Circling Approaches: I assume it's an IFR procedure? Could someone explain what it is, and what aspect of it is 'unsafe'?

Thanks,
-newpilot

[ng78]

I was reading the Fifth Estate thread, and a few posts spoke of SEIFR / Medevac / Night Circling Approaches as safety issues. As an uninformed student pilot I am curious what these problems actually are... Perhaps someone could enlighten me?

SEIFR: I think I've got this one figured out...clearly losing an engine (even in VMC) is an emergency, in IFR conditions away from an airport one cannot even begin to plan for a forced approach to a field/road/whatever. Is there any more to this?

Medevac: I understand what medevac flights are, but haven't a clue how this is a safety issue...? Perhaps I've misunderstood something in the thread...

Night Circling Approaches: I assume it's an IFR procedure? Could someone explain what it is, and what aspect of it is 'unsafe'?

Thanks,
-newpilot

Hi newpilot, nice to see you show some interest in the subject. I'll go into your questions a bit, and will follow with interest to see what others have to say.

SEIFR is a hot topic. You are correct in your assumption, but keep in mind that losing an engine in a twin-engine airplane is also an emergency procedure. The statistics for PC-12's indicate that it is just as safe, and in fact safer than many twin-turbine aircraft, nevermind twin-piston aircraft. There are lots of threads where you can look at the arguments for and against, and both sides have very valid points.

Medevac flights are not a safety issue. These are simply air ambulance flights that are operated on behalf of the respective provincial Ministry of Health, or then the insurance companies. Operators of such flights include Ornge, Air Bravo, Keewatin, Skyservice, and many many others. The issue here is the choice, especially by the government run Ornge to not only accept, but also choose to use single engine Pilatus PC-12 aircraft. This relates to the issue above for SEIFR flights.

Night circling approaches are an IFR procedure. Circling approaches, especially at night are inhrently risky due to their nature. I have only performed a small handful of day circling approaches, so there isn't much that I can say on this subject. I will let others chime in on this.

[Sulako]

With medevacs you usually are on a pager, and from the time the pager goes off you can expect a 15-hour duty day. The thing is, you don't know when the pager might go off, but you are expected to be rested enough to do the full duty day anyway. The risk here is fatigue, which can affect pilot performance just as much as flying while drunk or stoned.

Circling approaches are instrument approaches that don't line you up with a particular runway, forcing you to circle to final. Combine that with nighttime (lack of visual cues) and you are essentially circling while IFR, which can be scary if there are obstacles about.

[ng78]

Sulako brings up an excellent point on Medevacs - the duty day issue is definitely a huge concern that needs to be addressed.

[ski_bum]

The true risk factor is the combination of flying medevac, fatigue, and night circling approaches. As Sulako said, being awake all day waiting for the phone to ring, then getting the call just before your ready to hit the hay for 14 or 15 hour shift. So by the end of your shift you've been awake for 30 hours with only the odd nap under your belt... Dangerous. At least most medevac operations are required to be two crew so you have someone who is hopefully competent watching your back.

[CelBatrin]

How long is a typical on call period? Seems like the risk could easily be marginalized by having shorter periods. Or if the on call time was considered flight duty time (I'm surprised its not).

[Sulako]

10 days on call, 5 days off then 8 days on, 4 days off where I used to fly medevac. Just to be clear; for 10 days in a row you'd carry the pager and when it went off you'd be expected to drive to the airport within 20 minutes, be airborne within 60 minutes and then work 15 hours in a row. Sometimes the pager would go off all the time, and sometimes it wouldn't go off for days. I flew 65 hours a month like that.

The rule most of us followed was if the pager didn't go off by 3 pm then you'd have a nap for a couple of hours. That meant you'd be a little more wired that night, but if the pager did go off then you'd have at least a couple of hours sleep in the bank. I remember one cycle during the winter when the pager went off at 9pm and we flew until the next noon on alternating nights for the whole 10 day cycle. I spent my 5 days off trying to get my days and nights figured out and then ended up doing it over again for the next 10 nights.

I accept that the nature of medevac flying requires a flight crew to be available on short notice, but I think basically you'd need to hire more pilots and figure out some shift system that doesn't result in chronic fatigue and pager shellshock.

[B-rad]

regarding circling, I have heard that mainline carriers NEVER do circling approaches.. Correct me if I'm wrong here..

and for statistics I admit I am making up this number but night circling approaches make up 3% of all approaches yet 70% of all IFR accidents.. ya I know that's not the right numbers I forget what they actually are but I remember it being about this surprising!

After watching the 5th tho, I was a little surprised to see them making such a big deal about a bag not being screened. I understand the potential risk but after working in this industry a while,I see these kind of things DO happen often. Not just bags not being screened but the overall lack of security at airports including gates not being locked (in one case in Dawson Creek, the fence was bent and the door could not close!) etc etc.

now to me these kind of airport safety issues are far different then safety in flying procedures, limits, and duty times etc. that I kinda thought the show was going to be about as it lead me to believe it was regarding safety concerns in FLYING, not airport security. But whatever, really enjoyed the show either way. It's always good to get the public more informed about how things really work as I can imagine most people just trust the magic to happen and hide behind ignorance. I don't feel the flying public are in harms anymore then they thought they were before any of these things became exposed.

[newpilot]

Thanks for replying everyone! As a student pilot, this website is a great resource not only to gain knowledge, but also to hear the opinions of others in the industry...

After watching the 5th tho, I was a little surprised to see them making such a big deal about a bag not being screened. ... now to me these kind of airport safety issues are far different then safety in flying procedures, limits, and duty times etc. that I kinda thought the show was going to be about as it lead me to believe it was regarding safety concerns in FLYING, not airport security.

B-rad, I find it interesting that you and I watched the same show, but came out with very different opinions on the subject/target. To me, the issue of the bag was only an example of a much larger issue - the culture at TC, who are responsible for ensuring the safety of the flying public. This (IMHO) seems that it would have a greater impact on aviation safety through a lack of oversight (SMS) and whistleblower protection over issues such as circling approaches/duty times. Of course, this is just the rambling thoughts of a uninformed student pilot willing to accept that I've got it all wrong...

Thanks again,
-newpilot

[ski_bum]

I accept that the nature of medevac flying requires a flight crew to be available on short notice, but I think basically you'd need to hire more pilots and figure out some shift system that doesn't result in chronic fatigue and pager shellshock.

Exactly, you don't get into medevac flying thinking you'll be sleeping through the night, every night, however something needs to be done.

In 7 days I have flown close to 50 hours, you come off your rotation feel hung over and barely knowing your name. With only getting 8.5 hours of crew rest after a 14 hour shift, you pretty well rotate flying though all hours of the day in your week of work. What does a crew member on medevac fall under when on call? I used to argue reserve, you have to be airborne in 30 mins, your away from home is most cases, your being paid to be ready to fly at all times... What's your two cents??

Two crews and 12 hour on call shifts work well for crews and fatigue as you know in advance if your on the day or night shift and can prepare. However calls get turned down positioning to base to get the new crew so in the eyes of the owners, double the flight crews, lost trips, these things dig to deep into their pockets, and when money is the bottom line, nothing else matters.

[flap16]

I am shocked and amazed that TC has not done something about duty limitations. In respect to medevac flying, being expected to fly a 14/15 hour day within roughly 30 minutes notice and not knowing when your going to get the call is insane. A day or two, fine; but after 7 days straight of that schedule and half of it being in the middle of the night, you have a recipe for death. Transport is being completely negligent by letting this continue.

[B-rad]

After watching the 5th tho, I was a little surprised to see them making such a big deal about a bag not being screened. ... now to me these kind of airport safety issues are far different then safety in flying procedures, limits, and duty times etc. that I kinda thought the show was going to be about as it lead me to believe it was regarding safety concerns in FLYING, not airport security.

B-rad, I find it interesting that you and I watched the same show, but came out with very different opinions on the subject/target. To me, the issue of the bag was only an example of a much larger issue - the culture at TC, who are responsible for ensuring the safety of the flying public. This (IMHO) seems that it would have a greater impact on aviation safety through a lack of oversight (SMS) and whistleblower protection over issues such as circling approaches/duty times. Of course, this is just the rambling thoughts of a uninformed student pilot willing to accept that I've got it all wrong...

Thanks again,
-newpilot

Nah I think you got it pretty right too. Definitely it shows the culture going on but trying to expose such a deep routed culture that holds so much power and momentum doesn't make me anymore of a believer things will change. I only really mention the bag tho because I'm not surprised at the lack of attention or care it was given, or am I not surprised at the lack of investigation the accidents have gotten. Disappointed, yes, but I have become pretty accustom to looking out for myself and watching and listening to what hoops I will have to jump through to be able to make it in the industry. Dealing with the lowered mentality of TC is part of the crooked world we live in. The idea of whistle blower protection is great and I fully support those kind of ideas and would honor them if someone came to me in confidence with an issue but all stories I've ever been told, even from a little boy, the rats seam to drown in the end. If you're really going to give aviation a shot and wish for it to be safer, you need to be the change you wish to see. There is a level of security you will always be responsible for and you are going to be leaving a foot print for the ones behind you. So if you want to see the culture change, you're setting the bar more then you know. And with that in mind, I sincerely appreciate Kirsten for her safety advocation in Canadian Aviation and use people like this in my mind as motivation to hold a higher standard then TC.

[too_old_for_this]

Sulako's description of a some medevac pilots lifestyle/sleep habits is very accurate. I will add a bit more to it based on my medevac experience.

-Almost the identical schedule, 10 days on call, 5 days off, airborne within 60 minutes of initial call (I have unfortunately woken up many times in flight to find the other pilot fast asleep).

-If you don't go, you don't get paid (pay is heavily based on mileage).

-Almost every airport we go to is considered mountainous, almost every airport has only one circling approach, and it is dark for most of the winter (read: many flights are to circling approaches in the dark, in mountainous terrain).

-Told to go and have a look by owner/Ops manager (same person), no matter what the weather is.

On paper we aren't breaking any rules so TC is happy.

I can't wait to see how SMS will make this safer.

[Widow]

Anyone like to write an article about this? viewtopic.php?f=54&t=58807