Porter

Stan_Cooper · Post by **Stan_Cooper** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 10:08 am

Cool, thanks Valhalla!

What I mean dashx is that since Jazz only provides lift to Air Canada, the only way any company is in competition with Jazz is if they are trying to provide lift to Air Canada with similar-sized aircraft. Jazz's only real competition is on trans-border routes and comes from US CPA carriers like Skywest.

In other words, even if a Jazz Dash-8 and a Porter Dash-8 left at the same time on the same route, the competition would be between Porter and Air Canada, since Air Canada is the company selling the tickets and doing all the marketing.

dashx · Post by **dashx** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 1:31 pm

so basically.....stan.......

Porter is in competition with Air Canada.....

Have I been missing something all along......

Why of course it has nothing to do with Jazz........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAQ60VQ_ ... re=related

Some of you might know his daughter Candace .........

If I am wrong pls oh pls correct me......

Stan_Cooper · Post by **Stan_Cooper** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 2:36 pm

dashx wrote:so basically.....stan.......

Porter is in competition with Air Canada.....

Have I been missing something all along......

Why of course it has nothing to do with Jazz........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAQ60VQ_ ... re=related

Some of you might know his daughter Candace .........

If I am wrong pls oh pls correct me......

Well... I mean yeah that's what I'm saying. Jazz is a service provider to Air Canada. If Porter started doing capacity purchase work then they'd be competing with Jazz in the same market, but as long as Porter sells its own tickets and Jazz doesn't, they don't directly compete. The whole thread started on speculation that WestJet might buy Porter and Porter would start feeding WestJet. If that happened then it would be competing with Jazz, although you can hardly expect Jazz to scoop Porter in that case considering there would be ownership involved. (And because the Jazz brand is so closely associated with Air Canada.)

Basically to say that the two directly compete at the moment is like saying the company who makes fuel filters for Ford competes with a Toyota dealership, or like saying that Porter competes with Cara because Cara is a service provider to Air Canada.

dashx · Post by **dashx** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:28 pm

Stan.

This started with a simple question regarding pilots (and rumblings) and then it took off in a direction started me on a rant.

Might someone have been referring to this:

http://www.canada.com/travel/takeover+t ... story.html

But in regards to what might happen I quote Pierre Elliot Trudeau who said:

"Just watch me"

We can speculate all we want.

But please do a little research on the family and what Robert Deluce has accomplished in the past.

What motivates him. Who motivates him. What does he want to leave as a legacy (pushing 60 ya know). Children. Siblings. Family. Achievements. Failures. Past successes.

He's not just doing this to prove a point is he? Maybe to someone in particular?

Is he?

V is for ????????

dashx · Post by **dashx** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 8:34 pm

But Deluce also knows how cutthroat the airline business can be. In the 1980s his family, along with Air Canada, launched Air Ontario. The aviator clan owned a quarter of the new carrier, which eventually began service out of the island airport to compete with rival City Express. Those were hopping days on the island, which served 400,000 passengers a year at its peak. Within months, City Express went out of business. Air Canada then forced the Deluces out of Air Ontario, swallowed the smaller airline, and shifted most of its business to Pearson International Airport, west of the city.

This time around, the wily entrepreneur has taken steps to handicap the competition. Ahead of launching his airline, Deluce bought up most of the hangars on the island and handed Air Canada an eviction notice

I repeat V is for what???????

whipline · Post by **whipline** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:29 pm

Get over yourself DashX. AirOntario used to blah blah blah. What AirCanada did was abandon the island at try to get everyone out of Pearson. There was a market and Porter took advantange of it. You don't like it tough shit. Every argument jazz or ac has made to the courts has been thrown out.

Congratulations Porter, best of luck to everyone there. Your boss know's what he's doing!!

dashx · Post by **dashx** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:50 pm

Your boss know's what he's doing

Yes. Yes he does.

He's been doing for years. And AirOntario (blah blah blah)? Deluce used to be Air Ontario.

I wonder if they had an anti competition clause when they settled?

See boys and girls this is what happens when you go to school and pay attention..

So indeed congratulations Robert Deluce for a carefully orchestrated coup.

And (of course) shame on Air Canada for trying to kill the island airport.

Get over myself? Never........

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:59 pm

whipline wrote:Get over yourself DashX. AirOntario used to blah blah blah. What AirCanada did was abandon the island at try to get everyone out of Pearson. There was a market and Porter took advantange of it. You don't like it tough shit. Every argument jazz or ac has made to the courts has been thrown out.

Congratulations Porter, best of luck to everyone there. Your boss know's what he's doing!!

I'll try and translate the above verbal diarrhea:

What AirCanada did was abandon the island at try to get everyone out of Pearson.

AC did not "abandon" ytz. I believe a more factual version of the events was that AO had reduced its flying significantly due to the economy and low demand AT THE TIME and along came Mr. D with the promise of more money for everyone and "voila", AO gets booted. Hey that's ok, it's all about money. I don't have a problem with that.

at try to get everyone out of Pearson.

HUH???WTF?

There was a market and Porter took advantange of it.

Porter did not exactly move in the next day. The recovery took a while and well, timing is everything. Good for Porter. They grew at a pace that was consistent with demand. Very smart move. Had AO not been evicted, they would have been able to take advantage of the market the way Porter did, in due time.

You don't like it tough shit. Every argument jazz or ac has made to the courts has been thrown out.

Politics, politics.....oh, and money!!!

Congratulations Porter, best of luck to everyone there. Your boss know's what he's doing!!

Now THAT, I can't argue with!!
Hey, a little competition will help YTZ(and Porter). If the shoe was on the other foot, everyone would be calling it a monopoly and big bad AC should have its knuckles rapped. For ONE operator to be able to call ONE airport their OWN exclusive home and no one else is allowed in is not what Canada is all about.

whipline · Post by **whipline** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:44 am

Tony Puff Puff Pass!!

AC/Jazz reduced capacity at the Island airport for the past 15 odd years because of the economy? Actually no, they wanted everyone to route out their main hub, which is??? According to you AC was just about to increase their flying out of the Island prior to Porter starting up? AC/Jazz was evicted from the Island airport?

When Porter announced their start up, AC/Jazz announced they were going to match Porter's schedule with Dash-8's and 1900's. The Island airport said "no-way" you left us years ago and your not going to sink Porter then run away again. The Island told AC/Jazz you can have your current slots but your not getting more until you commit to long term. In the mean time Porter had bought up most of the hangar space. AC/jazz was left holding their @#$% in their hands and pulled out all on their own. They were never evicted. They tried to take it to court, where they lost. And now what? Their upset?

As I said before, Congratulations Porter!! (I actually mean it)

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 5:10 am

Well, I guess those empty flights I use to do for the last year or so out of YTZ were just an illusion. Sitting around for hours between flights was also an illusion. Why would AO want to divert customers to YYZ instead of trying to rebuild the service when the Island was so popular and had established so much loyalty with customers? Anyway, truth is they were evicted. Anytime politicians and businessmen get together and cooperate on something which is exclusive, it always smells. But I could be wrong.

365TAS · Post by **365TAS** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:19 pm

tonysoprano wrote:Well, I guess those empty flights I use to do for the last year or so out of YTZ were just an illusion. Sitting around for hours between flights was also an illusion. Why would AO want to divert customers to YYZ instead of trying to rebuild the service when the Island was so popular and had established so much loyalty with customers? Anyway, truth is they were evicted. Anytime politicians and businessmen get together and cooperate on something which is exclusive, it always smells. But I could be wrong.

...no those empty flights wern't an illlusion...just proof if you don't promote a product it'll wither away...what was AO's YTZ schedule the day City Express went under? ...and cutbacks in 2006 due to the economy...when AC and Jazz had a new groundschool starting every 3rd Monday morning? Get real. Porter evicted Jazz from the terminal...which they owned and still own today....not from YTZ. Jazz was able to, and almost did, startup a service out of TransCapital's facilities. And the new terminal being built, to a tune of almost $50 million, as well as a growing fleet, new destinations and yes, a profit, is proof what AC could have done during those 18 years had Uncle Milt decided to reinvest all those millions instead of a nice platinum parachute and a freighter full of cash delivered to Wall St. Porter installed a new ILS, upgraded the lighting and facilities, and most importantly, signed a commitment with # of pax and flight guarantees with stiff financial penalties to the Toronto Port Authority to establish a long term airline operation allowing the TPA to fullfill it's mandate of becoming self sufficient. AC/Jazz was welcome to sign the same agreement..they declined. This gave Porter the chance to build the service knowing the landing slots would be there for them as they grew, instead of AC paying Georgian 1900 to do circuits all day in a 1900 until Porter ran out of cash. AC has a long history of attacking anyone who threatens their prime markets. That's business.

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:36 pm

That's business.

Haha. Shouldn't that be said for Jazz going back to YTZ?
Promote a product? After 18 years of flying out of there, you want to promote a product? Tell ya what, if Porter wants to come to Pearson, Jazz would be powerless to stop it. I suggest it should work both ways. I'm not getting into this again. It's been discussed to death. Not doing it again.

Valhalla · Post by **Valhalla** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:15 pm

tonysoprano wrote:Well, I guess those empty flights I use to do for the last year or so out of YTZ were just an illusion. Sitting around for hours between flights was also an illusion.

Porter currently has 30% market share in the Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal triangle, and there will be close to 1 million passenger travelling through YTZ next year. All this growth is happening during a proper recession which does prove the commecial viability of the island airport, modernized and properly marketed. It's no illusion...

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:25 pm

I think we are scattering the topic. I'm not arguing Porter's performance. I'm arguing the fact that some here are suggesting Jazz should not go back to YTZ. Nobody has an exclusive right to any airport. Jazz is free to fly out of any Canadian airport it wants. There is nothing for Porter to fear, nor is there anything illegal here. Get over it and do what you do best so that maybe Jazz will leave, again.

aerodude · Post by **aerodude** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 6:50 pm

Looks like Jazz/AC might be able to return. Should be confirmed soon but they maybe able to get 3 take off's + 3 landings per day so 3 round trips total. From what it looks, the rest might belong to Porter until 2033 as per the lease. Not sure what they'll do with it.

teacher · Post by **teacher** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:03 pm

Having flown with A LOT of former Air Ontario folks in the last few years and discussed this topic to death one thing has been made clear to me. AC shot themselves in the foot when it came to YTZ. They stopped promoting the product and didn't take the time or money it took to keep it going. It's simple to see yet short sighted decision to not want to splt passengers between 2 (yet very different) bases.

Having said that if AC is that interested in returning to YTZ they have the legal right to under business laws in Canada. I know a lot of folks at Jazz would be happy to resume that service as it NEVER should have stopped. More landing fees and fuel sales can only be a good thing for YTZ.

stupido · Post by **stupido** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 6:18 am

AC/Jazz has finally woke up after 3 years realizing that Porter is eating 30% of the golden cake…..for the time AC/Jazz really wakes up, Porter will be eating at least 40-50%…..it is aaaallllll good!!!!!!!!!!!!

CHEERS!!!!!!!!!!!!

whipline · Post by **whipline** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 6:59 am

Tony, your more the welcome to use the search function on your computer.

Jazz's lease expired in 2005ish with the cca and THEY didn't renew it. Guess who bought it? Jazz had no intention of expanding their flights in and out of the TCCA and had no intention in signing anything long term until Porter arrived.

Here is a letter from the port authority http://www.torontoport.com/portauthorit ... 6.lisa.pdf

Jazz has always been more then welcome to fly out of the TCCA, they just had to commit to long term which they wouldn't do. In the mean time all the slots are being handed to the only airline flying out of there, Porter. Jazz was outsmarted, simple really.

Cam · Post by **Cam** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 9:20 am

^I love when it comes out in the wash....

Q400 Driver · Post by **Q400 Driver** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 12:41 pm

wow... this keeps getting better by the day !! keep up the posts ppl

I wish we can all get along !! this matter involves two Companies and NOT the pilots working for them. Lets remember that !! .. No hate ppl ..

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:35 pm

Whipline.
We don't know the details of that agreement which the TPA was imposing on Jazz. What was wrong about that agreement? Funny that all the sudden, Jazz would not be able to continue as they did for 18 years. What had changed? Will they be stopped once again by the same bureaucracy? So many questions that nobody perhaps will ever know. I smell a rat. Always did. Let's hope this time around there will be more clarity. Anyway, it doesn't really seem to matter to Jazz or to me. The point is they have every right to be back there. I don't think you can argue with that. And for the record, Jazz certainly was evicted. By Deluce himself!
http://www.tetracom.ca/transtalk/index.php?p=768

BE99 · Post by **BE99** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 3:43 pm

Deluce is a genius ??

whipline · Post by **whipline** » Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:42 am

Great article Tony, did you read it? As I said, Jazz gave up their lease with the CCA and deluce bought it. He kicked you out, not the airport. Genuis!! 100% Jazz's fault.

If you care to use the search function you will quickly find out what the airport was asking from Jazz. Long term committment which Jazz didn't want, hence the court case which they lost. We can do this all day, but nothing is going to change. Jazz is only interested in toronto island because porter is there. They used the AirCanada play book on upstart airlines and got outsmarted. Not much left to cry about now.

Rockie · Post by **Rockie** » Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:29 am

The TPA has a mandate to be a financially independent and viable business. To accomplish that they needed a long term committment from an airline to provide service from the airport, and they offered Jazz that opportunity on many occasions. Jazz was not interested and said so. Deluce was. End of story.

Deluce didn't outsmart Jazz. Jazz outdumbed themselves.

Yes, Jazz can still get some slots if they want and there is nothing anybody can do to stop them, nor should they. But they have to have a place to operate out of, and sadly Deluce seems to own everything. No one can force him to offer access to his own buildings. So again, Jazz outdumbed themselves.

Crying that it isn't fair now is almost comical until you realize the political interference Jazz/AC threw at Deluce to stop him back when Miller got elected.

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:35 am

Whip.
Nobody's crying. I still think there's more to the story but you're right, no need to go around in circles. All that's important is that there will be no funny business or backroom deals and Jazz will be back at the Island. Porter is hardly an upstart airline at this point. They have taken their time and exploited the benefits of monopolizing an airport and a market. Genius indeed when you think of how they did it. I think Deluce is to be commended. But you forget it was hardly a new idea. He's done this very same trick before. And when there was enough money to be made, he sold it. Great for the Deluce clan, but not so comforting for the employees knowing the history of this family and what they do. Let's hope this time it will be different. Also, let's see what a little competition will do. Maybe nothing. Maybe quite the opposite.

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