Who said I made it?
Way to pay attention, let me restate.
1. You do not have to sell out to progress in this industry.
2. I have not starved while working my way up
3. I am not starving now (still working my way up)
repeat steps 1-3 until you are where you want to be
"Poorly Paid, Often Tired, Junior Pilots"
Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, I WAS Birddog
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wheeliedriver
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Prairie Chicken
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Re: "Poorly Paid, Often Tired, Junior Pilots"
I'm inclined to agree with Wheeliedriver. First, do your research. It's a tough industry & don't let anyone tell you otherwise. 2nd, work hard & do what you have to do, but not at the cost of your safety or integrity. 3rd, keep at it if you can. If you can't, maybe it is time to look elsewhere.
As far as the 'college' is concerned....great idea, but too often I've heard the same ideas being spouted by those who have made it & do have a lot of power to make changes... but we as a group can't agree on how best to improve our lot. I really do hope it comes about, but I can't see it happening in my lifetime.
As far as the 'college' is concerned....great idea, but too often I've heard the same ideas being spouted by those who have made it & do have a lot of power to make changes... but we as a group can't agree on how best to improve our lot. I really do hope it comes about, but I can't see it happening in my lifetime.
Prairie Chicken
Re: "Poorly Paid, Often Tired, Junior Pilots"
U.S. politicians are planning to introduce a bill which would include some radical changes, for instance demanding that all pilots employed by majors and regionals possess a full ATPL licence with a minimum of 1500 flight hours, to be voted on by Congress in September:
... whether or not such a bill will eventually pass is anybody´s guess
http://www.bnd.com/news/local/story/864933.html
A string of fatal regional airline crashes blamed on pilot error -- including one outside Buffalo, N.Y., in February that raised disturbing questions about flight crew training and fatigue -- led U.S. Rep. Jerry Costello, D-Belleville, to introduce a bill to dramatically boost the number of flight hours that all U.S. airline pilots must log.
Costello's bill would raise the number of hours that pilots must have under their belts by 600 percent -- to 1,500.
Pilots at the nation's major air carriers already would have met such a standard, said David Gillies, a spokesman for Costello, the chairman of the House Aviation Subcommittee.
The bill targets the pilots of smaller, regional airlines, where training and job experience requirements are not the same as major airlines. Right now, airlines can hire co-pilots with as few as 250 hours in a cockpit, according to Federal Aviation Administration rules.
Costello's bill would impose a wide array of other safeguards aimed at boosting air crew training and averting fatigue, with the goal for the airline industry "to have one level of safety," Gillies said.
"So when you get on an airplane, you can be confident everyone is properly trained," Gillies said.
Costello, who introduced the bill Wednesday after a series of hearings before the panel he chairs, expects the full House to vote on it after members return from the five-week recess that begins Friday and ends Sept. 8, Gillies said.
Costello's bill would require airline pilots to hold a Federal Aviation Administration Airline Transport Pilot license, which requires at least 1,500 flight hours.
The measure also:
* Requires the FAA to ensure that pilots are trained on stall recovery, upset recovery, and that airlines provide remedial training.
* Establishes an industrywide pilot mentoring program that includes pilot professional development committees and leadership training to pilots in command.
* Creates a pilot records database to provide airlines with electronic access to a pilot's comprehensive record.
* Mandates that air carriers set up fatigue risk management systems approved by the FAA.
... whether or not such a bill will eventually pass is anybody´s guess
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Prairie Chicken
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Re: "Poorly Paid, Often Tired, Junior Pilots"
For those of you that don't subscribe to Curt Lewis's Flight Safety newsletters, following is a survey opportunity being conducted in the US. You may wish to participate in the survey, or the questions posed may be useful to us here considering a professional college, or to concerned management.
http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=i2LZxpPKKWR5Gt9A1V0xgQ_3d_3dThis survey, Pilot Fatigue in Regional Airline Operations is being issued to determine the extent, if any, of Human Fatigue issues that may affect the safety of Regional Airline Flight Crews and Operating Personnel. This survey was developed by a former regional airline pilot that understands and has experienced effects of this threat to aviation safety. This study is initiated to update previous studies that queried the regional industry many years ago. Conditions have not changed much since then but the equipment and operating environment has and its complexity has increased the stress on human factors of the operators.
Your cooperation is greatly appreciated and your confidentiality will be honored. Your name or company will not be requested or revealed in any way.
The results of this study are the property of Alertness and Performance Management and only the analysis of the results will be released in a research paper. Please make your responses as honest as possible, in the interest of improving safety in your profession and industry.
Prairie Chicken
Re: "Poorly Paid, Often Tired, Junior Pilots"
Way to go, American law makers. Perhaps someone from the FAA could educate the good senator; hours in a log book are not representative of training nor experience. 1500 hours of supervising touch and go's in a 152, is not the same as 1500 hours in a single pilot navajo operation.
If you are not living on the edge, you are taking up too much room!
Re: "Poorly Paid, Often Tired, Junior Pilots"
I had a chat with one of these US regional pilots last week. The FAA is sitting in on sim rides now, and he's also worried about the pending commuting rules the FAA is working on. Looks like the shit is hitting the fan down south over the Colgan Air crash.
Drinking outside the box.
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WhiteBeacon
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Re: "Poorly Paid, Often Tired, Junior Pilots"
Four1oh, I agree here in the US now, and my sim instructor now says the FAA are all over training these days. Has TC been doing the same in in light of what happened?
I can't find the Green Banana
Re: "Poorly Paid, Often Tired, Junior Pilots"
no, i don't think so. I'd like to think the Canadian standard is a little higher for our regionals already. I do think TC will be watching the FAA's next moves closely regarding crew rest/commuting. In house, here at WJ we're looking into our commuting policy as well, and I'm not sure what will come of it.WhiteBeacon wrote:Four1oh, I agree here in the US now, and my sim instructor now says the FAA are all over training these days. Has TC been doing the same in in light of what happened?
Drinking outside the box.
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CelBatrin
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Re: "Poorly Paid, Often Tired, Junior Pilots"
How bout some more pay? Give people a chance to live close to where they fly out of. Seems like the pay rate just got some lip service during those senate hearings. Instead of helping pilots, these new regulations might just make it harder to get a job (restricted to area of permanent residence).In house, here at WJ we're looking into our commuting policy as well, and I'm not sure what will come of it.
I'll just sneak through here... they'll never see me if I stay low.
Re: "Poorly Paid, Often Tired, Junior Pilots"
Problem is, there's many of us who are happy where we are now, and no matter how good the money was, there are certain places we wouldn't live... like Alert and Toronto... and Shammatawa, but not necessarily in that order! 
As for training/experience levels, I see Canada trending in the direction the U.S. has gone, and it worries me.
As for training/experience levels, I see Canada trending in the direction the U.S. has gone, and it worries me.
Drinking outside the box.
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Chuck Ellsworth
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Re: "Poorly Paid, Often Tired, Junior Pilots"
It is really quite simple, it is a function of supply and demand.As for training/experience levels, I see Canada trending in the direction the U.S. has gone, and it worries me.
As long as the schools keep turning out a minimal trained flood of commercial pilots it will be a step up money and working conditions wise to leave flying to drive a truck.
The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
Re: "Poorly Paid, Often Tired, Junior Pilots"
Agreed. The term 'pilot puppy mills' have been used before, and I can't think of a better description.
Drinking outside the box.
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Chuck Ellsworth
- Rank 11
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- Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:49 am
- Location: Always moving
Re: "Poorly Paid, Often Tired, Junior Pilots"
Flight training has been replaced by desk bound paper pushers who have replaced teaching the mechanical motor skills airplane handling part of flying with feel good word salading mumbo jumbo that excuses bad airplane handling skills and common sense decision making.
I tried to get through the laws of learning or learning factors part of the flight instructors guide but so far am still struggling with it trying to relate it to how I teach.
Of course should I write their exam and pass it I would then be qualifying for the chance to work for a puppy mill and take a really big cut in hourly pay ( about ten times the amount less. )
I tried to get through the laws of learning or learning factors part of the flight instructors guide but so far am still struggling with it trying to relate it to how I teach.
Of course should I write their exam and pass it I would then be qualifying for the chance to work for a puppy mill and take a really big cut in hourly pay ( about ten times the amount less. )
The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
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My-Shoes-Are-Covered
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Re: "Poorly Paid, Often Tired, Junior Pilots"
It's the guys in this industry that say "Oh, it's ok to work for shit wages. If you don't like it get another job." You're all ass kissers, and I bet the ones climbing over everyone else to get up the ladder. Then when you do, all you do is bitch about the job you just climbed over someone else to get. I've seen it with my own eyes. You and your lack of integrity and self respect make me sick to my stomache, and you're whats allowing this industry to be this way.
Why should we have to settle for leftovers when operators ARE making good money for the most part. Does your company owner eat Kraft Dinner 5 times a week? Does your company owner drive a beater to work? Does your company owner live in a shitty little apartment scraping together money to pay the utilities?? I don't think so! Do you think your boss is reading this saying oh, he's/she's a real company man/woman.
All my life I've earned an honest living and in this industry they get the same hardworking individual with a great work ethic, except that because of backclimbers and company men/women who don't respect themselves, (SOME) operators take advantage of this. Did anyone here see the video posted from CNN? Pilots getting paid less than janitors?? I admire anyone who works (janitors included) but they didn't pay thousands of dollars to learn their trade. Shitty pay and long hours DO contribute to an unsafe work environment and I think it's time this industry had minimum standards applied.
Unlike yesmen in this industry, I personally refuse to work for a two bit cheap operator, and at the end of the day, that may mean I dont have a job in aviation, but at least I'll be able to look at myself in the mirror!
Why should we have to settle for leftovers when operators ARE making good money for the most part. Does your company owner eat Kraft Dinner 5 times a week? Does your company owner drive a beater to work? Does your company owner live in a shitty little apartment scraping together money to pay the utilities?? I don't think so! Do you think your boss is reading this saying oh, he's/she's a real company man/woman.
All my life I've earned an honest living and in this industry they get the same hardworking individual with a great work ethic, except that because of backclimbers and company men/women who don't respect themselves, (SOME) operators take advantage of this. Did anyone here see the video posted from CNN? Pilots getting paid less than janitors?? I admire anyone who works (janitors included) but they didn't pay thousands of dollars to learn their trade. Shitty pay and long hours DO contribute to an unsafe work environment and I think it's time this industry had minimum standards applied.
Unlike yesmen in this industry, I personally refuse to work for a two bit cheap operator, and at the end of the day, that may mean I dont have a job in aviation, but at least I'll be able to look at myself in the mirror!
"What you looking at whiteboy? That hole aint gonna dig itself. C'mon boy, get your dickskin on the thing. Dig! Dig!" Junior
Re: "Poorly Paid, Often Tired, Junior Pilots"
Just read the paper, and it looks like Michael Moore touches the subject of pooly paid commercial pilot in his new movie Capitalism, to be released on Sept 23. It will of course probably focus on the US situation, but Canada is in the same boat.
Re: "Poorly Paid, Often Tired, Junior Pilots"
But the low pay isn't the only negative part of a regional pilot.
There is no extra pay for holidays. You don't get the day back if you work it. That's 2 weeks a year given away for free.
And speaking about vacations....
Most get only 2 weeks/year until you hit 10 years at the company. And if your junior, expect to get a week in Oct and one in April.
No weekends off. In the last year i have had 7 weekends off. 3 were because i called in sick.
Then the schedules are crap. Work till midnight then two days later wake up to a 4am buzzer. Late/early/late/early.
Then how about the cheap hotels, all in industrial parks with very limited choices of food or entertainment.
This job is perfect for someone who likes to be away from home 200 days/year and likes to be locked up in a Laquinta watching TV.
And don't get me going on about the travel benefits. Yea i have them. No i can't use them cause i wouldn't get home and i would lose my job.
Then again it isn't like we have any job security. Become a downgraded captain and lose 50% of your pay.
Never in a million years would i recommend this job to my kids.
There is no extra pay for holidays. You don't get the day back if you work it. That's 2 weeks a year given away for free.
And speaking about vacations....
Most get only 2 weeks/year until you hit 10 years at the company. And if your junior, expect to get a week in Oct and one in April.
No weekends off. In the last year i have had 7 weekends off. 3 were because i called in sick.
Then the schedules are crap. Work till midnight then two days later wake up to a 4am buzzer. Late/early/late/early.
Then how about the cheap hotels, all in industrial parks with very limited choices of food or entertainment.
This job is perfect for someone who likes to be away from home 200 days/year and likes to be locked up in a Laquinta watching TV.
And don't get me going on about the travel benefits. Yea i have them. No i can't use them cause i wouldn't get home and i would lose my job.
Then again it isn't like we have any job security. Become a downgraded captain and lose 50% of your pay.
Never in a million years would i recommend this job to my kids.
For the third friggin time....Flt 124 at 24oh!
Re: "Poorly Paid, Often Tired, Junior Pilots"
I did not find the time to read all of the posts in this thread......
Between the bitching and the blaming, I find it difficult no one has put the blame on the pilots operating the machine and the pilots who trained and signed them off.
Stalling and spinning any certified aircraft unintenionally is unacceptable. Especially a perfectly good aircraft.
Between the bitching and the blaming, I find it difficult no one has put the blame on the pilots operating the machine and the pilots who trained and signed them off.
Stalling and spinning any certified aircraft unintenionally is unacceptable. Especially a perfectly good aircraft.
Re: "Poorly Paid, Often Tired, Junior Pilots"
European flight crews have staged a protest at 22 European airports today in order to raise awareness of fatigue:
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europ ... .protests/
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europ ... .protests/
Re: "Poorly Paid, Often Tired, Junior Pilots"
Glad to see some of the issues hitting the head lines, alas it is not just pilots, look at the maintenance staff and flight attendant staff, all well paid to work on multi million dollar aircraft 
Aviation needs to wake up Instead of fighting each other we need to work to-gether and survive in-spite of the over regulation and over zealous regulators
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moose_meat
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- Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 7:36 pm
Re: "Poorly Paid, Often Tired, Junior Pilots"
Whenever someone has mentioned the thought of becoming a pilot and asked me for "tips & advice" I've replied "Don't do it" and then I may chuckle a little. When they laugh too, I explain that I'm not trying to discourage them, but before they think about joining in on all of the glamour and glory they see in movies or on TV, they should realize that it takes a lot of hard work, and you really have to enjoy what you're doing to make some of the sacrifices that are necessary to get to where you want to be.seafeye wrote:Never in a million years would i recommend this job to my kids.
Despite all of the negative aspects, you have to have some pretty good stories? Memories? Pictures? Things a small amount of people ever get to experience in their lives. Something has to have kept you at it all this time. Working your way can suck, and from what I've seen/heard, for most people it does. But there are a few opportunities out there that pay well, treat you well and are in locations you'd really enjoy. Every job has it's downsides and the grass will seem to be greener on the other side most of the time, but I do agree that overall the pay for entering pilots, FOs and people trying to work their way up needs to be increased all around.
I would hope that there is a way to change it for the better, and that I'll see it in my lifetime.
Re: "Poorly Paid, Often Tired, Junior Pilots"
I agree that there is a need to address the fatigue situation, and that pay is ridiculous.
Nevertheless:
viewtopic.php?f=79&t=59336
Nevertheless:
If you haven't seen it yet, you should all watch TSB animation:fixtor wrote:Stalling and spinning any certified aircraft unintenionally is unacceptable. Especially a perfectly good aircraft.
viewtopic.php?f=79&t=59336
Re: "Poorly Paid, Often Tired, Junior Pilots"
The proposed 1500 h minimum flight experience rule for regional airline pilots has now been approved by the U.S. House (409 for - 11 against...)
http://rocnow.com/article/local-news/2009910150325
http://rocnow.com/article/local-news/2009910150325
Re: "Poorly Paid, Often Tired, Junior Pilots"
Sorry dudes n dudettes,
I have to confess, I never made less than 26,000 a year even when I was "paying my dues".
And that was almost 30 years ago. 1981, flying a floatplane...
I think it is attitude, and it is up to the individual what they are willing to accept...
kind regards,
my 2cents:
Dream BIG!
and then when you reach your dream, you realize your dream wasn't BIG enough, so Dream Bigger!!
I have to confess, I never made less than 26,000 a year even when I was "paying my dues".
And that was almost 30 years ago. 1981, flying a floatplane...
I think it is attitude, and it is up to the individual what they are willing to accept...
kind regards,
my 2cents:
Dream BIG!
and then when you reach your dream, you realize your dream wasn't BIG enough, so Dream Bigger!!
Re: "Poorly Paid, Often Tired, Junior Pilots"
Stubby, that is one of the main points - it seems like this job has degraded significantly since you started 30 years ago. It is probably impossible for anybody starting out today to make the equivalent of $26,000 in 1981, despite their attitude or what they are willing to accept.
You are right though, there are a lot of bad attitudes among pilots these days which is a shame.
You are right though, there are a lot of bad attitudes among pilots these days which is a shame.
Stubby wrote:Sorry dudes n dudettes,
I have to confess, I never made less than 26,000 a year even when I was "paying my dues".
And that was almost 30 years ago. 1981, flying a floatplane...
I think it is attitude, and it is up to the individual what they are willing to accept...
kind regards,
my 2cents:
Dream BIG!
and then when you reach your dream, you realize your dream wasn't BIG enough, so Dream Bigger!!
Re: "Poorly Paid, Often Tired, Junior Pilots"
wheeliedriver wrote:Who said I made it?
Way to pay attention, let me restate.
1. You do not have to sell out to progress in this industry.
2. I have not starved while working my way up
3. I am not starving now (still working my way up)
repeat steps 1-3 until you are where you want to be
Wheeliedriver...
Nice work!! It's a very good point to make! I also have never 'prostituted' myself to progress either. At the end of the day, those who do, are the pilot that are causing the industry to have "poorly paid, often tired, junior pilots" It is also the reason for training bonds. I am at a company that "doesn't believe" in bonds but has been burned way too many times by guys coming in, getting a PPC, and then leaving because the location may be nicer and the pay maybe slightly better.
Keep at it boys, have fun, keep the wheel side down.
good_idea
Keep the wheel side down
Keep the wheel side down
