No more Age 60 forced Retirement at Air Canada ???

[beast]

DocAV8R, you seem to think this is primarily an age issue - its not in this context, its an issue of fairness

like i said before, the actual age of retirement doesn't really matter, so much as AN age was specified and AGREED UPON

I'm not saying that the retirement age shouldn't or couldn't be changed - just that a select group of people are trying to leverage the situation to their greatest benefit - All of the individuals involved were perfectly aware the day they started, that the mandatory retirement age existed, and they chose to accept employment with the company.

They did not protest such unfairness while they were junior, as that would have allowed others ahead of them to enjoy the benefits, and would have nullified any potential gains for themselves

No, they have waited until they are in a position to take full advantage of this change - and this is why they disgust me

- Thats the unique problem with this "societal shift" - its good for virtually nobody - All it represents is the increasing bankruptcy of western society - as pensions and wages are beaten into the ground, governments, instead of doing something about THAT, instead choose the easy way out, and now everyone can ( nay, they must) work until they die - wow, good job, society - You know, years ago, people actually defined success as retiring earlier? not later?

i sure as hell don't want to slave away until i'm 65, by then, i want to be able to fly for fun again.....am i the only one?

We should be fighting to reduce the retirement age, and increase our pay to make it work....duh

[Rockie]

I'm not saying that the retirement age shouldn't or couldn't be changed - just that a select group of people are trying to leverage the situation to their greatest benefit - All of the individuals involved were perfectly aware the day they started, that the mandatory retirement age existed, and they chose to accept employment with the company.

For the sake of argument let's say you're right here. So what? What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

This change will be in effect for long after all those people are dead and forgotten. You can carp all you want about what they did or did not agree to and the whole boo hoo unfairness of life, but you would be ignoring the reasons why this change has to happen. Get over it and start thinking about the future.

This is dictated by demographic requirements to maintain the pension and changing standards of society. The names actually making it happen now do not matter nor does their motivation. You can be as bitter about it as you want but it won't change a thing, and you should remember that axe grinding is the root of most of our problems as a pilot group.

[DocAV8R]

BcFlyer wrote

Nobody can say for sure that junior pilots will only be affected by a few months.

Nobody can say that they won't. The experts certainly agree and have testified in VK that that is the case. I don't believe that a better expert opinion has been put forth on this thread. Rumours are just lies and gossip with no basis in the facts - Fear-mongering to cause upset and unfounded worries.

the original tony wrote on another thread- Layoffs?

I can't believe that there would even be a remote chance that this 65 bullshit can cause layoffs. With an occupation this hard to get into and stay in, where everything good and bad economically affects us, badly, we are going to layoff to bring back guys

The law prevents any layoffs when bringing guys back. With at least 10 retirements a month and less than 10% wanting to stay past 60, I am sure that any intelligent management could work it out. Bringing guys back may be the best insurance against layoffs we've got. If the company is shrinking, no one was going to go up the ladder anyway, so the fuss is about nothing. If the company does well and grows as the economy improves and all the low end flying is not given away to Jazz, the juniors will end up with guys behind them and will advance in due course. With cooperation, sound minds, good judgment and a little creative planning, this can all work out for the best. 60 is gone and no matter what anyone feels about what it will do to them at this instant. The prudent response would be to work together to make it work out. Why should the members who have paid into the union for 25, 30 or 33 years be less represented by their union than someone who just joined?

[DocAV8R]

Friday, February 25, 2005
Too Old to Fly?
THE MIDDLE SEAT By SCOTT MCCARTNEY
Excerpts:

Gray-haired pilots have the advantage of extensive and wide-ranging experience at the controls, enabling smart, well-informed decision-making -- which is just what you want if, say, a plane runs into trouble. Consider that, in 1989, United Airlines Capt. David Cronin flew a Boeing 747 back to Honolulu after a large section of the fuselage blew out, sucking nine passengers to their death. Two of four engines quit and wing flaps were damaged, but Capt. Cronin's flying skills saved 327 passengers. Then, within a month, he was deemed too old to fly.
That same year, Capt. Al Haynes guided a crippled United DC-10 to Sioux City, Iowa, using different thrust from right and left engines to steer the plane when hydraulic systems failed. It was a remarkable feat of airmanship, and 184 people survived Flight 232. Two years later, Capt. Haynes had to retire.

Hero Sully .....

[Rockie]

Our pension is based on our best 5 yrs.

Our pension is also based on 35 years service. That means new hires yesterday, today and tomorrow will come up about 10 years short unless the rules change.

[Raymond Hall]

I have decided to join this Forum using my real name, primarily to dispel any rumours that I was posting here under a pseudonym. I was not.

As legal counsel to over 100 Air Canada pilots and former Air Canada pilots who are currently before the CHR Commission or the CHR Tribunal, I would prefer to not engage in argument here, but I may be able to offer some information on the procedure used by the Court(s), the Commission and the Tribunal, as well as on the schedules that have been agreed upon or set down for further submissions.

[BLZD1]

Hi Rockie,

I fall into that group and just hope it does not turn into a 15 year pension hit because I want to retire at 60 years of age. I will just have 25 years of service at retirement.

[FLCHG]

Ray; In 1982 Ross Stevenson obtained an injunction which allowed him to remain at AC until the courts ruled on the understanding of the CALPA contract.... ( I believe 6 months after his normal retirement age of 60.) Re the pilots who intend to retire in the near future.(ACPA contract.) Have you gone before the courts to obtain an injunction which would allow the pilots who are soon to retire to remain in their present positions until a final ruling as in the case of Ross Stevenson?

[DocAV8R]

FLCHG wrote:

Ray; In 1982 Ross Stevenson obtained an injunction which allowed him to remain at AC until the courts ruled on the understanding of the CALPA contract.... ( I believe 6 months after his normal retirement age of 60.) Re the pilots who intend to retire in the near future.(ACPA contract.) Have you gone before the courts to obtain an injunction which would allow the pilots who are soon to retire to remain in their present positions until a final ruling as in the case of Ross Stevenson?

At this stage I believe that the present Tribunal is the most expedient way to effect a Cease and Desist as well as a reinstatement. It takes months to get court dates now. The Tribunal is in progress and for a court is actually moving at lightening speed. It still may be a few months, but it is definitely over for 60.

It won't be as bad as all the Max 60 guys have said. It will all work out- without major problems. Trust me they are already putting the plan into place, while they are telling us that there is no way it can work. The intelligent ones have already figured that out.

Remember some in the MEC started very young through nepotism, without university, college or even an ATPL. They can even retire early with 40 years service and full pensions. Who are they to dictate to the majority? Spreading fear and lies to beat you all into submission- sounds like the work of dictators in action. Don't believe everything you hear or read.

[DocAV8R]

Default GAO report on Age 60 rule
The GAO came out with their required report on the age 60 rule and the impact it has on aviation safety. It can be found here:

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d10107r.pdf

For those of you that don't like reading (me included), it can be summed up by this one sentence: increasing the age limit for commercial airline pilots has no effect on aviation safety.

On another note:
I can confirm that Raymond Hall is not Rockie. Raymond just recently joined this forum as Raymond Hall.

[yycflyguy]

I have decided to join this Forum using my real name, primarily to dispel any rumours that I was posting here under a pseudonym. I was not.

As legal counsel to over 100 Air Canada pilots and former Air Canada pilots who are currently before the CHR Commission or the CHR Tribunal, I would prefer to not engage in argument here, but I may be able to offer some information on the procedure used by the Court(s), the Commission and the Tribunal, as well as on the schedules that have been agreed upon or set down for further submissions.

Could you provide me with legal counsel in my discrimination case against AC and ACPA for the new hire flat pay wages I was paid? I would also like to include that equal work for equal pay should have paid me what the top seniority 777 FO has been making since I was hired.

[the original tony]

Yycflyguy, I have a cut throat lawyer, who absolutely loves this shit.
If this sets the precedent for discrimination, then from uniforms, to jewelery limited to one piece, to a clean shaven face are all grounds for discrimination since they lack compassion to freedom of expression.
Why stop there?? I want to wear a yamaka, a turban, a burka. I am being discriminated against.

If this is what you want, anyone "forced" to work with a senior captain can cry discrimination. They feel they shouldn't have the burden of flying with only a few captains that refuse to stop sucking blood.
This opens a can of worms that can go on till AC no longer exists and flying is obsolete.
Have at it boys, take your money for another several years and screw the rest.
Be prepared for a good go though, I hate discrimination, and i want to make things equal for all......

Tony

[yycflyguy]

Sweet. I will ask for your lawyer info after this is implemented.

I think I will also sue CATSA and TSA for unwarranted searches on my person and property while acting as a crew member (discriminating/profiling against pilots) and the GTAA for not allowing me to use the priority lanes at screening stations.

Playing this discrimination card could be such a cash cow if played at a different angle for junior members. To hell with what is right or just... I just want my piece too.

[the original tony]

By the end of it, you can be naked and with a tattoo of Hitler on your forehead and still be politically correct and in the cockpit.
Ethically you are a fing looser to have anything like that on your person, but hey, what we are fighting for is discrimination. ALL types, age is the least of your worries.
If I have a card to play, its Poker time. From the top down you aren't going to recognize any institution in this country. I personally like the rules we have, having briefly done time in the forces where 60 is still the cutoff i like regimented rules being followed.
The reason we have rules, so this stupidity doesn't run rampant.
Then again i like the saying, when in Rome do as.............
So now it's my turn to get mine, if I'm going out, I plan on doing it with style.
Any more cases that can be pulled up as discrimination, even forcing us to abide by a contract under duress.
Follow or you are reprimanded, or fired. You can't tell me what to do with a mere contract.
I have RIGHTS on my side.

Tony

[Rockie]

Despite the complete devastation to your careers (irony intended), you guys still haven't figured out you are on the wrong end of this argument. You can lament the end of mandatory retirement if you wish but the rest of the civilized world doesn't agree with you. Air Canada will be forced to get with the program in today's world and the day will probably come when you admit it is a good thing too. Probably as you approach your 60th birthday.

In the meantime though please go ahead with the plans you are discussing here. Although it will be terribly embarrassing to be associated with you the entertainment value may just make it worth it.

[the original tony]

Believe it or not, honestly, i hate to break up your entertainment.
I don't introduce myself as " hi i am AIR CANADA PILOT"
That isn't what defines me, and never will. If we are in times like this when i am 60 i will do what i can to help people that were in my position. Not lick my finger and stuff it in their ass while in the unemployment line
If you and your money loving lot have nothing else to offer the world except your immense flying skills, then have it. I really don't give a shit. Pay for your summer home, 4 wives, whatever. Just don't make it a great stride in human rights. I don't see many minds in our times sympathizing with you when all you have to face is a 100g+ retirement. How will you ever manage. Here's how, i do it on less than half. It's great. And i thank you for helping me stay here longer, really.
My simply mentioning the other facts that can be brought up as discrimination seem to be entertaining to you.
This is easily summed up by the fact there is no money in it.
If there was i am sure you and your moral lot would have started this shit sooner.
Stay, go, I know the hands have been dealt. Let one old bastard smile about it in my presence and it's gonna be my RIGHT to freedom of speech. I hope honesty is high on your priority list, or you may not like what i have to say.

Tony

[Rubberbiscuit]

I can agree that mandatory retirement as it stands was coming to an end and there is no stopping it. I can also see where the frustration of those whom planned to retire at 60 is coming from. They may still do so of course but more than likely with less than originally planned.

This is not just the end of age 60 retirement. It is the end of any company, union or other groups representing a group of workers having a say in it. Only a failed medical will prevent a pilot from continuing to fly for hire and we might indeed end up with 75 year old airline Captains. This is of concern with todays medical standards. Lets be real, most doctors are not that thorough and TC medical standards do not require it. I think if we are to fly commercially past 60 and 65 cognitive test and or tests of memory, balance and cordination need to be established. We all detoriate with age. It is inevitable, although it happens at different rates from individual to individual. I have flown with 63 and 64 year olds that were as sharp as they come. I have also flown with 64 year old pilots that had no business being in the pointy end of an airliner.

[yycflyguy]

In the meantime though please go ahead with the plans you are discussing here. Although it will be terribly embarrassing to be associated with you the entertainment value may just make it worth it.

The feeling is mutual

After 8 years there still is Red v Blue animosity in the workplace, guys are STILL lamenting on the ACPA forum that the merger cost them $1.5 million over their careers. You don't think that is going to be an issue when you climb into your seat at age 64 and 11 months?

Your argument that guys will now be able to maximize their pensions if they can go to age 65 doesn't carry any weight with me. There will be inevitable pension reform and your DB as it stands today will almost certainly be different than it stands today. Let me make my money today so I can create my own investment portfolio. flypast60 is denying this option as it retards the entire seniority system that we all agreed to.

[the original tony]

Sorry, but they have every right to be there as much as anyone else. It's not ours or the doctors to decide, it's up to the courts to decide. A few accidents in and that will change in a hurry. Now that they are actually collecting data, should be interesting.
I dare say that a more stringent medical for anyone over 60 would also be discrimination, why subject them to more strict terms than us?
After all, they have been through so much to get to this point in their career, oh wait a minute..........
Let them stay as long as they like, but call back the masses that also retired, why let these greedy guys have all the glory.
I'm sure that most if asked would love to fly a few days a month for a quarter mill.
Let's be fair now, this is everyone's rights we are talking about. I'd be happy to have the bragging rights of flying with Canada's oldest Non WW2 pilot.

Tony

[Rockie]

I've mentioned this before, but our jobs depend on two things.

1. Medical fitness. To that end the CAME folks are going to have to be conscientious in applying the standards since physical degradation is likely to become more of a factor. They are the goal keepers in that regard.

2. Competence. For the same reasons the standards department within the airline are going to have to be just as conscientious. So too will the union. They along with the company will have to decide when a pilot no longer can maintain the required competency.

Please stop with the greed line. There are many reasons why someone would want to work past 60 and money is probably the minority. On the other hand there is no reason other than greed that you don't want them to.

[Rockie]

Your argument that guys will now be able to maximize their pensions if they can go to age 65 doesn't carry any weight with me. There will be inevitable pension reform and your DB as it stands today will almost certainly be different than it stands today. Let me make my money today so I can create my own investment portfolio. flypast60 is denying this option as it retards the entire seniority system that we all agreed to.

Flypast60 is denying you nothing. You are not denied the right to retire at 60, and your contention that your pension will suffer is an unsubstantiated opinion only that is directly contradicted by the HRTC. On the other hand you gain the right to work longer in your chosen profession thereby increasing the amount of pension you would have recieved otherwise if you wish. It is all at your option. Nothing is denied.

Although you refuse to see it yet this is a win situation for you.

[yycflyguy]

Please stop with the greed line. There are many reasons why someone would want to work past 60 and money is probably the minority. On the other hand there is no reason other than greed that you don't want them to.

Wrong. They are altering the terms and conditions of employment that every pilot in the union agreed too... now they are changing the rules to suit them. The courts are playing with a Collective Bargaining Agreement the was satisfactory to the MAJORITY and now a minority is playing a discrimination card. See the problem?

One more hypothetical question for you. We both agree that this ruling will cost AC huge money to bring back retired pilots, downtrain, uptrain, cross train, print books in font large enough for them to see it, whatever. What if this cost is so substantial that we find ourselves right back into a CCAA scenario? The company then slashes DB, lays off the bottom 300 guys, "shrinks to profitability" or even worse, goes the way of any other legacy carrier teetering on the brink and slips into the abyss? Then who are the greedy ones?

Orginal Tony... I will take that lawyers info now please.

[turbo-beaver]

Rubberbiscuit:

I have flown with 45 year old captains and a lot of guys even younger that have no business being in the pointy end of an airliner.......both those guys that flew a couple hundred clicks while on lavalife were both under 60......how do you figure that?

[yycflyguy]

Rubberbiscuit:

I have flown with 45 year old captains and a lot of guys even younger that have no business being in the pointy end of an airliner.......both those guys that flew a couple hundred clicks while on lavalife were both under 60......how do you figure that?

...and they have both lost their licences and careers. Maybe they will be more successful if they say that not allowing personal electronics on the flight deck is discriminatory. In Canada that would get them their jobs back. Inattention and negligence is not directly related to the age discrimination theory.

[Rockie]

Wrong. They are altering the terms and conditions of employment that every pilot in the union agreed too... now they are changing the rules to suit them. The courts are playing with a Collective Bargaining Agreement the was satisfactory to the MAJORITY and now a minority is playing a discrimination card. See the problem?

This has nothing to do with the collective agreement and everything to do with the law. You have to let that sink in before you can talk sensibly about anything else because right now you are not on the same page.

"What if this cost is so substantial that we find ourselves right back into a CCAA scenario? The company then slashes DB, lays off the bottom 300 guys, "shrinks to profitability" or even worse, goes the way of any other legacy carrier teetering on the brink and slips into the abyss?"

The longer Air Canada and the union fail to deal with this new reality the worse it will become. Responsibility for that rests squarely on their shoulders. Not the courts. Not the flypast60 group. Not the HRTC. And not the House of Commons who are in the process of making this law completely on their own.