Northwest A320 overflies destination by 150 miles . . .

[Flying Nutcracker]

I find it very ironic, given that "Sully" has been on a spree of promoting higher pay for better quality personnel in the aviation department, only to have 2 of us go on a rampage like this and clutter it all over the media putting us all in a bad light...

Not to mention the ATL incident on a taxiway besides a runway...

What must "Sully" think of all this...?!?!?

[Four1oh]

I find it very ironic, given that "Sully" has been on a spree of promoting higher pay for better quality personnel in the aviation department, only to have 2 of us go on a rampage like this and clutter it all over the media putting us all in a bad light...

Not to mention the ATL incident on a taxiway besides a runway...

What must "Sully" think of all this...?!?!?

Good point. These were not a couple of wet-behind-the-ears turboprop drivers. They were both very experienced, and in their 50's.

As for the laptop story, I'm sorry, I don't buy it. I think they lied to cover up the truth they were actually sleeping at the switch. Might have turned out better(for them) if they had said they were sleeping.

[Dash-Ate]

The Captain, 53 years old, was hired in 1985. His

total flight time is about 20,000 hours, about 10,000

hours of A-320 time of which about 7,000 was as pilot

in command.

* The First Officer, 54 years old, was hired in 1997.

His total flight time is about 11,000 hours, and has

about 5,000 hours on the A-320

Maybe we need mandatory retirement at age 50

[Four1oh]

Maybe we should pass new regulations forcing a minimum age difference of 2 decades in the flight deck!

[Four1oh]

That's a high-fiver fer shoor!

[swordfish]

Is the Union missing the point about "non-punitive reporting"? This aspect of SMS - or whatever it's called in the US - is designed to encourage error reporting that uncovers systemic problems in the company or the industry, not individuals' flagrant or apathetic disregard of their responsibilities, or violations of SOP or FARs.

The statement that no one and no aircraft was in danger at any time is also a red herring designed to deflect attention from the seriousness of the incident. In my opinion, the safety of the whole aviation system, and the security of the nation, are plunged into uncertainty when a crew fails to respond to an ATC instruction, clearance, or handover.

This incident - which the Union would try to convey as fairly benign - is actually very serious, and we must collectively wonder how widespread the problem is in the USA.

[2R]

Whoop Whoop ,nobody hurt and no damage done to the aircraft .So why is everyone gunning for these guys ?
These guys have done everyone a big favour by showing how even seasoned pros can be distracted.A very good lesson for us all.Lets us learn from this and not hang our fellow professionals for one bad flight.They have been humbled and shown even the mightiest can stumble.Give them a few weeks holiday , for time to reflect.
Just another lesson in life.
These guys should not be fired for what was really a non-event.
So pay attention as if this can happen to guys like this it could happen to YOU.
Rather than sinking down into circle jerk of spite against our fellow professionals.We should treat this incident as a valuable lesson ,that we are all vulnerable to random acts of stupid.These guys do not deserve to lose their careers over a small mistake that caused no real damage to people or equipment.People can do stupid sometimes, but even Doctors are allowed to bury some of their mistakes.How about some professional courtesy and solidarity for these guys ?

"was that for us ?"

[Amateur Turbines]

2R I agree! As far as the Union's point of view, I agree with them aswell in that this could hurt voluntary safety systems such as SMS. If this (or something similar) happens to me the first person I would call on the ground now would be my lawyer! People make mistakes no one died they probably still landed with enough fuel to do a missed approach and make it to there alternate. I think its a sad day when we try to take the human element out of these situations. Don't get me wrong tho they still fucked up big time and there should be some recourse but to destroy both of there lives like this.....

My $.02

[Flying Nutcracker]

I'm sorry guys... I can't agree with this. I am usually not one to point fingers at anyone, but we are hired to do a job! In this case, not one of them was monitoring the progress of the flight for an extended period of time. It is our responsibility and duty to "supervise" the computers and thus we are a very big link in the chain of prevention as far as safety goes. When we don't fulfill our obligation, well... who does???

I am not one to suggest strong punitive actions, and I don't believe a stronger lesson could have been learned by these two individuals in this case. But, I go to work to carry passengers from A-B as safely as I can, and that includes monitoring the progress for the entire period it takes to get the job done. Sure there's chit chat and maybe a sudoko involved at times, but there's an SOP that states that someone has to "mind the store" at all times! Flight progress and system monitoring.

This is a fundamental concept of flying today and I don't think that these two unfortunate pilots were doing their job! They left it all at the hands of a computer... complacency! A human factor that we are working so hard to manage and control!!!

[swordfish]

So why is everyone gunning for these guys ?
These guys have done everyone a big favour by showing how even seasoned pros can be distracted.A very good lesson for us all.Lets us learn from this and not hang our fellow professionals for one bad flight.They have been humbled and shown even the mightiest can stumble.Give them a few weeks holiday , for time to reflect. Just another lesson in life.

So what you're saying, essentially, is that a 1¼-hour diversion from their responsibilities is really a "non-event"? Get your shit together, dude.

Rather than sinking down into circle jerk of spite against our fellow professionals.We should treat this incident as a valuable lesson ,that we are all vulnerable to random acts of stupid.These guys do not deserve to lose their careers over a small mistake that caused no real damage to people or equipment.People can do stupid sometimes, but even Doctors are allowed to bury some of their mistakes.How about some professional courtesy and solidarity for these guys ?

This incident is TOTALLY unprofessional and inexcusable. There is no earthly reason that a professional group or union can support or condone their actions. They are on their own. And while I agree that firing is not the correct response to the situation, what type of punitive action would you propose? Their licences have been suspended for the time being, but when they are reinstated, they both need to have a good long introspective review of their situation, or take early retirement.

You are right, of course, that we all make judgmental errors, or stupid mistakes. That happened between 10 and 19,000 hours ago, when we were still learning from those types of errors. After you pass the 20,000-hour mark, with 5,000 on type, in the 705 industry, I think the industry's - and your peers' - expectations of you have elevated to a higher level.

Your collective "experience" means nothing after the point where you flush it all down the drain. Experience is for credibility, performance, decision-making, and salary. Not some lame-assed out for making an error.

Your union perspective and slant are not only absurd - they are indefensible.

[GilletteNorth]

I agree with this:

Swordfish: The statement that no one and no aircraft was in danger at any time is also a red herring designed to deflect attention from the seriousness of the incident.

Serious, yes it was a serious mistake. Yes the outcome could have been worse... but it wasn't. Since the aircraft did nothing other than burn more fuel than it should have and landed safely later than the preferred time I would agree with this:

2r: nobody hurt and no damage done to the aircraft .So why is everyone gunning for these guys ?
These guys have done everyone a big favour by showing how even seasoned pros can be distracted.A very good lesson for us all.Lets us learn from this and not hang our fellow professionals for one bad flight.They have been humbled and shown even the mightiest can stumble.Give them a few weeks holiday , for time to reflect.
Just another lesson in life.
These guys should not be fired for what was really a non-event.
So pay attention as if this can happen to guys like this it could happen to YOU.

People make mistakes and if you can't forgive them if there is no harm no foul then you must hold yourself up to the impossibly high standard of NEVER making a mistake yourself. Let you who is without sin...

[ettw]

These guys f'd up. They got distracted to the point where no one was flying. For an extended period of time....

I wouldn't want to smoke these guys out of a job but the Capt totally lost control of the situation. Yes we're human but this guy was not new at this job, he had over 20000 hrs. He was paid to know better and to manage the aircraft and it's crew to ensure safe operations. He did neither.

I'm sorry to say but on this matter I would have to side with the regulators and without a licence, you don't have a job.

ETTW

[grimey]

This wasn't an momentary lapse in judgement, this was an hour long lapse in judgement. Landing gear up is a mistake, busting a clearance is a mistake. Both are bad, with potentially huge consequences, but aren't inexcusable (which isn't to say that pilots shouldn't be disciplined over them). This was totally negligent, and criminally irresponsible. It would have been better if they had been asleep, at least then they'd have some sort of excuse for it. There is nothing they were doing on their laptops that couldn't have been done in the hotel room or bar after the flight, when they weren't responsible for over 100 people. The idea that it's ok, because nobody got hurt is idiotic. What, we should only fine or suspend licenses if pilots injure or kill someone? We pull drivers licenses for drunk driving, dangerous driving, and other issues when the issue is noticed. We don't wait for the driver to cause a pileup on the freeway. This is no different, except that the results if we wait for a crash are that hundreds could die, rather than normally less than 10.

[Four1oh]

It would have been better if they had been asleep, at least then they'd have some sort of excuse for it.

I think they were asleep and gambled on another story. I've thought about quite a bit the last few days, and I don't see how ANYONE barring a deaf mute, could possibly miss the visual and audio clues if they were awake, regardless of the distraction. Actually, maybe a bare chested FA might do it, but that's about it!

[swordfish]

+1

[GilletteNorth]

I have to agree that I don't believe their story about neither of them noticing anything for an hour but it's their story. I read that the CVR recorded the conversation. Did it? Were they talking for the hour or snoring? If they were talking their story holds. If they WERE talking, think about it. They KNOW that the plane is being piloted... by the autopilot. Is that unsafe? No. They KNOW that ATC is flight following on radar and will keep any other aircraft clear. Is that unsafe? No. They KNOW how much fuel they have. This is the only part where I feel they put the plane in some danger because the fuel load might have been just enough to adhere to the regulations and they used quite a bit of it overflying. However since the flight attendant called them 5 minutes prior to ETA I'd have to guess all they did was eat up most of their departure point to destination fuel and still hadn't used the one approach and divert to alternate fuel. That still left them enough to return to land safely. According to the reports they had years of safe flying, no incidents, no blots on their record. I'm not saying making this mistake wasn't an unprofessional lapse, but one mistake that really didn't harm anyone shouldn't eternally label them as unprofessional. How many pilots do you know who have died in accidents, afterwards have been described as "a real professional, excellent pilot". These guys didn't even kill anyone and everyone seems to be on a tear to tar and feather them. I think it's unfair. And I'm surprised at the vociferous comments.

[grimey]

I have to agree that I don't believe their story about neither of them noticing anything for an hour but it's their story. I read that the CVR recorded the conversation. Did it? Were they talking for the hour or snoring? If they were talking their story holds. If they WERE talking, think about it. They KNOW that the plane is being piloted... by the autopilot. Is that unsafe? No. They KNOW that ATC is flight following on radar and will keep any other aircraft clear. Is that unsafe? No. They KNOW how much fuel they have. This is the only part where I feel they put the plane in some danger because the fuel load might have been just enough to adhere to the regulations and they used quite a bit of it overflying. However since the flight attendant called them 5 minutes prior to ETA I'd have to guess all they did was eat up most of their departure point to destination fuel and still hadn't used the one approach and divert to alternate fuel. That still left them enough to return to land safely. According to the reports they had years of safe flying, no incidents, no blots on their record. I'm not saying making this mistake wasn't an unprofessional lapse, but one mistake that really didn't harm anyone shouldn't eternally label them as unprofessional. How many pilots do you know who have died in accidents, afterwards have been described as "a real professional, excellent pilot". These guys didn't even kill anyone and everyone seems to be on a tear to tar and feather them. I think it's unfair. And I'm surprised at the vociferous comments.

You have horribly misunderstood the meaning of Reason's model. Needing multiple errors to line up doesn't make failure ok, it simply means a single isolated error won't cause an accident in most cases. The fact that ATC is doing flight following doesn't make it OK for pilots to ignore them for over an hour. Loss of contact with ATC is at least partially to blame for the 737/Embraer midair in Brazil a couple years ago, and nearly caused one in the midwest years before. Having IFR fuel doesn't make it ok to not descent as scheduled. Several aircraft have crashed after running out of their IFR fuel which was wasted not doing approaches when it could have been, for whatever reason. Avianca 52, for example. Knowing that the autopilot is engaged doesn't make it ok to lose situational awareness. Several incidents and accidents can be traced to over-reliance on or assumptions regarding the configuration of the autopilot. As another poster in here stated, the pilots might as well have left the cockpit for over an hour, for all the good they did.

ANY serious errors should result in at least a non-punitive investigation. Gross negligence (as in this case) should result in punitive action.

What would be an appropriate action for your site manager to take if you ignored repeated radio calls from aircraft and failed to monitor weather, navaids, and any other communication circuits for well over an hour? Not because you fell asleep on a midnight shift after a short change, but because you decided playing X-Box or doing your taxes was a better use of your time. After all, there's little that FSS can fail to do that would by itself put aircraft at greatly increased risk. Aircraft can and do still fly if your site is closed.

As for not giving them a fair shake, THEY ADMITTED TO IGNORING THEIR JOB FOR OVER AN HOUR. This isn't comparable to an ongoing investigation where we don't have the pilot's version of what happened.

[Flying Nutcracker]

Try doing this next time you go to sim for a recurrent ride... Takeoff, take out the laptop and start talking about how to work the scheduling software for 78 minutes and see how the ride goes!

Or... take a nap for 78 minutes and see how the ride goes!

I would love to see how many would pull it off without any consequences for their priveliges!!!

It is not part of the jobdescription. If you shouldn't do it on a ride, you shouldn't be doing it on line either.

Bottom line isn't the fact that the outcome was "uneventful", but the fact that unprofessional behavior and lack of leadership led to a complete lack of situational awareness! Not acceptable.

[GilletteNorth]

Quick word to Grimey... respects but I wasn't using Reason's model to say their action was acceptable. I also never said they shouldn't face some sort of punishment for making the error.

Moving on, how does anyone know that what I mentioned wasn't in the back of their minds when they pulled out the laptops? They probably thought "Oh we can take a few minutes to discuss this" and what was meant to be minutes turned into over an hour. You ever start reading a book and get so involved you forget the time? What, has no one ever did anything that wasn't allowed by company rules (no using laptops on the flightdeck)? Sterile cockpits aren't entirely sterile. I read in a recent forum post where someone asked what others did to pass the time on long flights and there were posters talking about pulling out walkmans and laptops. Not everyone seems to have the same standard then about maintaining STRICT professionalism and not letting ANYTHING distract you while DOING YOUR JOB.

I see mistakes being made almost every day. Most don't result in anything serious happening and can/should be used as learning experiences. Even the best of them can make mistakes and when it happens if you are lucky you shrug it off and say "never again". I'm sure these two pilots will... pretty much ensured since the FAA is pulling their licences. They ARE going to pay for their error, but the attitude that it's alright to slam them... I guess it's ok if it didn't happened to you...

[GilletteNorth]

Some posters are bringing up the time span and increasing it to 11/2 hour. Let's not increase it past the 78 minutes alright? Do you think they would have been talking to ATC the entire time if they hadn't goofed and stopped monitoring the radio properly as they should? The time quoted is from their LAST contact from ATC. From then on it's probable a large portion of calls would have been directed to other aircraft and I suspect the Captain and FO knew that and is why they decided to take the time to use the laptops. Was anyone posting here on the flight deck watching them and knows exactly when it was from the time of the last contact to when they pulled out the laptops? For all you know they only started using them for the last 1/2 hour. Considering they only travelled 150 miles (130NM) past MSP in an Airbus that is going 400+?NM per hour that's about a 20 minute flight. I think alot of you are reading more possible tragic outcome into it than you should. These guys are going to lose their livelyhood. How many pilots on this forum (raise your hand) think these two, after flying for years safely without incident, should never fly again over what essentially was a momentary lapse in attention that didn't result in ANYthing other than a few extra minutes in the air? If so, can I expect that the next time you have a momentary lapse in attention, like fail to do a walkaround, don't check the fuel for the next portion of your trip, do anything other than be a complete professional pilot, you'll hand over your licence over to the next FAA inspector you see? Stand them down from flying for a couple of weeks, have them redo their check rides, embarass them by putting a 'safety' pilot in the jumpseat for the next few flights, but destroy their careers? The FAA, by pulling their licences, are just using these guys to play the "we are on the job protecting the public" game.

[Doc]

What really worries me, is not the fact that this happened. It's the fact, that because nobody actually DIED, it's really not a punishable event. It should somehow stand as a model of how SMS should work. We shouldn't be, what was the phrase, "gunning for these guys"? Are you for real?? These guys should receive the modern equivalent to a good keel hauling! To let them set foot in a cockpit ever again would make a mockery of the entire industry.
YOU are the guys who worry me. Guys who are not willing to take, even the slightest responsibility for their own actions.
How can some people catch a breath, with their heads so far up their asses??

I really liked Hot Fuel's comment about "blank incident report......." to cover asses! How true.

[Liquid Charlie]

I have not read the whole thread so maybe this was pointed out but non-punitive reporting does not protect you when you break the law - these guys busted their clearance limit and their airspace regardless what went on in the pitcock - so legally right off their ass is the grass -- now what comes out of the negligence is just more fuel for the fire -- the union is doing it's job to try and protect these guys which it is mandated to do. If they don't get proper representation from the union they could likely retire from the lawsuit so it's all about everyone trying to cover their ass. Union is like a lawyer - you might not agree but you have to represent your members to the best of your ability.

Brings out a good point though - supervised rest - scientifically it's proven to be a good thing but it's difficult for the regulators to accept it into the 2 crew cockpit.

[Legacy]

After reading all this everyone seems to have their own opinion. Everyone has valid points too. I still stick with the story that these guys' story is not the truth. It just can't be. I flew the other day and set the timer for an hour and a half and tried to imagine what it would be like not notice anything going on. After about 20-25 mins I was wondering "No way these guys could have gone 1.5 hrs" (or even an hour). I just can't fathom it.

But going back to the punitive action. I think having their careers kiboshed is a little excessive. The punishment fit the crime? I think it exceeds it. Many have said "they broke the law......". Heck everyone of us break the law everyday the second we exceed the speed limit by 1km per hour. We get caught speeding we get a ticket. Maybe thats what these guys should have received. Maybe a 5-10K fine. It would make you think twice about doing it again wouldn't it?

Punishments such as this are only going to hurt any industry. IF this happens again the pilots might tend to want to cover up the truth in fear of losing their career.

I find this a learning lesson for myself and will tend to be more diligent in the cockpit. This is not to say I won't ever read the paper again. To me I find reading the paper or whatever it may be helps me be more alert. After flying for an hour and staring at the instruments for a long time puts me in a daze. A UFO could come up and fly formation with me for an hour and I probably wouldn't even notice. I am sure we all have driven down that dark road at night and no where to look but straight ahead since it is too dark to look anywhere else and start getting the head nods. Same thing. Reading or doing something intellectual I finds keeps me much more alert. Just look up at the instruments every minute or so. It just takes a quick glance. Companies probably just make up some of these rules of no reading, etc on the flight deck because its bad PR. But then again I am sure naps are too but look at the benefit of them.

One question I ask myself is "Would I fly on the plane that these two are piloting". I would honestly have to say yes.

[Brown Bear]

Why don't we ask the 144 passengers if this is "like going 1km over the speed limit"?? Are you for real, Legacy??

[Legacy]

Why don't we ask the 144 passengers if this is "like going 1km over the speed limit"?? Are you for real, Legacy??

Oh Bejezuz Bear. You are missing the point. The point is MAKE THE PUNISHMENT FIT THE CRIME. Why is there always someone on here that likes to argue BEFORE reading the message in its whole. No it is not like going 1 km over the limit but going 1 km over the limit IS breaking the law. I will tell you what it IS like though. It's like texting while driving and you can not argue that texting while driving has caused a hell of a lot more accidents than laptops on a flight deck. And there is no law against texting in a lot of provinces. You may get nailed with careless driving though. Just please read the post and understand what the poster is really trying to say.