Going rate for an annual

[office_supply]

Just to clear things up, Im not in the 'office supply' business. I chose this nick because at the time of registration, the penholder at the computer desk had a label which stated 'OFFICE SUPPLY!' on it.

As for the subject of parts for my "car/truck/motorcycle/boat etc." My car is under warranty and so any required parts are free. I dont own a truck, I dont own a motorcycle and I dont own a boat. I own a plane and if I can get parts cheaper by myself (make no mistake, I mean, 20, 30, 40, 60 dollars cheaper, not 5 bucks) then I will. Personally, my AME has hinted he prefers this as he doesnt have to deal with ordering them. IF it is a common part he HAS IN STOCK I dont mind paying a little extra for it. But if he has to order it AND charge me nearly double, its easier and better for both of us for me to order it.

[SeptRepair]

Problem is the aircraft owners dont realise the turn over needed to keep the bills paid. If an aircraft is scheduled in the shop for a couple days and elcheapo owner wants to source all his parts because he wants to save a few bucks, he ties up the shop with his aircraft sitting there. Like Ifly stated. There is alot of money tied up in inventory waiting to be sold. To be a profitable shop you need to be able to have quick turn arounds. Depending on how you look at it, it can be good or bad. There are less and less AMO's doing the GA stuff anymore, those who manage to make a profit are choosing their clientel well and leaving the less desirables to the back of the truck mechanics.

[office_supply]

I keep waiting for some of you to realize Im talking about parts that HAVE to be ordered. Whether I order them or the AME does, they have to be ordered.

I even took the time to uppercase and bold those words in my last post

[itismedd]

Ok they "HAVE" to be ordered! If your A.M.E orders them he will have to pay for shipping, if he pays with credit card he will have to pay interest on the amount until you pay him. What percentage are you talking about 30- 40- 80%. If he is charging an extra 60 bucks on a 500 dollar muffler, your getting a good deal( just using those numbers off the top of my head........not exactly sure the cost of a muffler). If its marked up 300% thats one thing if it is marked up 30%its totally another. And you should support your A.M.E.

Do you do the same when you go to a building supply store with their very very high mark ups, or canadian tire, when they dont have what you need and have to get it in. When you get what you want a week later and waltz up to the cashier.......what do you say. Oh I could gotten this myself for 60 bucks cheaper.............my guess is you dont say a word you haul out your wallet and suck it up and pay it. Or when that special part has to be ordered for your car/truck, do you ask what kind of mark up is on those parts........you cant buy them yourself then because they wont warranty the work. Yes you said your vehicle is under warranty now but it will come off at one point, and what do you do then. Sounds like to me you are just trying to save a few bucks by being a tight ass. Only a tight ass to your A.M.E though .................thats the thing.

[SeptRepair]

I keep waiting for some of you to realize Im talking about parts that HAVE to be ordered. Whether I order them or the AME does, they have to be ordered.

I even took the time to uppercase and bold those words in my last post

I wont put words in bold as the majority of those in this forum understand what we as engineers are talking about. When your AME orders parts, he will call up his supplier, pay wholesale, charge you list, have it sent overnight if possible and be off the phone in 5 minutes. If the engineer leaves it up to the owner, they can expect the process to take longer. The owner searchs for the best deal on the internet, probably picks up a copy of Trade-A-Plane, hopefully finds what it is he is looking for, phones up the seller, perhaps get a better discount then list price and has the part shipped UPS ground. ( being cheap they hate paying for fedex 2-3 day delivery). Once the package arrives, they get ass raped by the brokerage fees, find they ordered the wrong part ( not knowing there are 2-4 different variants of the part they need), or find the part has no documentation. They then cry to the AME to cut him some slack because he now has to reorder the correct part, send back the other one, and then find out he cant get the right part for another week. So once again the owner trying to save a buck ends up costing the AME valuable shop time and in the end has cost himself alot more than the money he thought he was saving by "ordering the part himself". This scenario has played out countless times across this country by cheap ass aircraft owners and the story is getting old. I doubt very much I will change your opinion on sourcing your own parts, but hopefully other aircraft owners who read this get an eye opener.

[KISS_MY_TCAS]

I do not mark up parts which I can aquire for cheaper than most because it means more work, which I don't like any more than the owner does.

You are cutting yourself short AND doing a disservice to the industry when you buy then sell parts at cost ,,,,i used to do that, i smartened up !! No wonder AME S are treated poorly and have relatively low wages,,,,maybe its lacking wisdom and being too nice ???

Perhaps I should have been more clear. The parts are marked up to cover the shipping/brokerage, and offered to me at this "marked up" price, which is lower than list. I than pass it along, because the owners I work for have the same access to the supply chain I do, I don't mark the price up but the parts research is billed. If the owner REALLY wants to save $15, he can look it up himself, and order the same part for the same price I get it for. Difference is, when I research and order parts it is billable time and I know what I order is correct. I only look after a couple of aircraft, and am certainly not looking for more work, so it's not like I am causing sweeping changes in the industry. In fact, one aircraft I look after was because the owner came to me inquiring about the $300 labour bill he was charged at an AMO to change a vaccuum pump. I am one of the guys billing labour but I am not blind to when someone is getting bent over and reamed. 4 nuts and 2 hoses, open access. Get real.

[Dust Devil]

I do not mark up parts which I can aquire for cheaper than most because it means more work, which I don't like any more than the owner does.

You are cutting yourself short AND doing a disservice to the industry when you buy then sell parts at cost ,,,,i used to do that, i smartened up !! No wonder AME S are treated poorly and have relatively low wages,,,,maybe its lacking wisdom and being too nice ???

Perhaps I should have been more clear. The parts are marked up to cover the shipping/brokerage, and offered to me at this "marked up" price, which is lower than list. I than pass it along, because the owners I work for have the same access to the supply chain I do, I don't mark the price up but the parts research is billed. If the owner REALLY wants to save $15, he can look it up himself, and order the same part for the same price I get it for. Difference is, when I research and order parts it is billable time and I know what I order is correct. I only look after a couple of aircraft, and am certainly not looking for more work, so it's not like I am causing sweeping changes in the industry. In fact, one aircraft I look after was because the owner came to me inquiring about the $300 labour bill he was charged at an AMO to change a vaccuum pump. I am one of the guys billing labour but I am not blind to when someone is getting bent over and reamed. 4 nuts and 2 hoses, open access. Get real.

Make no mistake there are some AMOs out there that will try to shaft you. I had an outfit try to bill me $1200 dollars to change a nose wheel after I sent a spare up with a tire mounted. I told him to pound sand till he sent me a real invoice. I never heard from him again.

[LousyFisherman]

Wow what a lack of trust, with both the AME's and vehicle mechanics

Our annual is 10-12 hours at $90/hour. It usually runs about $2K-$2500 because we get our maintenance done with it. (This year new tires, fixed a corroded light, installed a front wheel shimmy kit, replaced the trim tab which had some hangar rash, installed a new circuit and breaker to isolate the turn indicator), all labour at $90/hour. It does NOT include an oil change. When we change our oil we send a sample for testing and bring him the results to interpret. We are free to come and watch or help though I don't get as big a discount by helping him as I do my car mechanic. I do not have to buy a 24. I have no problem with anything up to a 25% markup on parts, hey I run a company, I can get wholesale prices too, but it costs him time to order and his knowlege of what to buy is worth something. His usual markup is around 15% and he goes out of his way to find us cheap parts so more power to him. The replaced trim tab (used) cost us $50 installed, and he even painted it for us. We know we are not a big client for him so we accept the plane may sit for a few days if he gets an important job in. We do not bitch about his prices, in fact we are happy with them and there is mutual respect and trust. He often says stuff can wait until next year if need be, usually we say just do it.

I pay my car mechanic $75/hour. He is very happy to have me in the shop and will reduce his rate by $20/hour for every hour I am there. I also have to buy a 24. He gives me the wholesale rate on parts with no markup, but I usually have to pick parts for his other clients when I go to get parts for my vehicle. Often I am paying for all his parts and he is re-imbursing (sp?) me when I get back to his shop. Often he says we don't have to do it now, but you will need to shortly, usually I will say lets wait until it needs to be done.

If you do not have this kind of relationship with your AME and/or mechanic why are you doing business with either of them?

I truly do not understand the aviation business, I am very glad I am an amateur in the aviation world.
LF

[Dr.Piper]

My rule of thumb when I did annuals was 10 hours for a single fixed aircraft plus oil, filters, linings etc. 20 hours for twin retractable. I also explained this was just for the inspection as long as there were no problems. Any problems found were additonal.

[niss]

My AME typically lets me order and pay for my parts on the side. This saves me some $ and saves him the labour of having to order it, pay for it, etc.

The stronger your relationship with your AME the better.

Some posts from my almost abandoned blog.

Monday, June 23, 2008
Annual Inspection.....OOOOOHHHHH SKEERY!

Well it is time to outline the plight of our aviator/aircraft owner. C-FUBC is out of annual and ready to soar with the eagles!

Keeping in spirit of my blog I will post what work was done on UBC just as a snippet of information for the would be aircraft owner.

This has not been the most expensive annual and has not been my cheapest. It has certainly been the most enlightening. This time round was far more comprehensive with my mechanic as he took the time to go over everything and give me his opinion of what needed to be done, what I can do, and what can be deffered.

Work Report for Piper Cherokee 130 S/N: 28-21375 C-FUBC

Airframe: Tach Time: 2370.77 Hobs time 2404.4 TTSN 5728.8

Engine: TSN: 4768.6 TSO: 1954.8

Propeller: TSN: 1141.2 TSO: 0.0

1. Total Time Since New Hours 5728.8 hrs.
2. Emergency locator transmitter Model found installed. AC Model E-01 S/N 030496 Next recertification is due May 2009. replace Battery: Due May 2010*
3. External ELT location placard installed.
4. All required placards per the Type Certificate TData Sheets and Pilots Operating Handbook found installed.
5. Researched Airworthiness Directives to date from Transport Canada (CAWIS) Dated May 16, 2008 up to AD2006-03-08.
6. Compass Swing Record: (*On Actual sheet but removed from this post)
7. Tachometer Accuracy (A/C Tach. Eng: 1700 / 2000, Master Digital Tach. 1710/2000).
8. Fire Extuingisher installed. Flag model. ABC-025 S/N 118053C Recertified.
9. First Aid Kit found installed that conforms to CARS 602.60 AWMs 624.39.
10. 100 Hour inspection / Annual inspection of the complete airplane is maintained in accordance with CAR’s 625, Appendix B, Part 1 and Appndix C as applicable. Piper Inspection Sheet is Used as A guide only.

Airframe Work Completed

1. Found vertical play in engine throttle. Found throttle cable loose at dash. Tightened nut.
2. Serviced landing gear oleos.
3. Lubricated landing gear and all components.
4. Topped up air in tires: 24psi.
5. Battery Box had corrosion in it. Removed all and painted with battery box black paint.
6. Cabin Door Pins loose. Installed new door pins. P/N MS20492-3C13 X2
7. Red Oil Stain from parking brake. Found to be old. System is not leaking.
8. Cabin Vent Bracket at pilot feet broken. Repaired with new rivets. P/N CR32123-4-1 X2
9. Vacuum and Regulator filters replaced. P/N RAD9-18-1 X1, P/N RAB3-5-1 X1.
10. Some rust on nut of antenna in tail. Removed rust.
11. Bracket that holds brake line on right side is loose. Tightened bolt.
12. Small play in right aileron rod end bearing. Checked serviceable. Need to check at next annual.
13. Removed dead bird in tail section.
14. Rudder horn rust forming on it. Removed all rust and painted with epoxy primer gray.
15. Trim drum for elevator has loose bushing. Replaced. P/N 450-413 X1.
16. Lubricate all cables and pulleys and pivoting points.
17. Cleande electric pump screen.
18. Cleaned fuel bowl. Installed new gasket. P/N 462.049 X1.
19. Drained Carb and found no water. Lockwired plug back in.

Engine Specific Work Completed

1. Oil leak from rocker cover #3. Replaced new gasket.
2. Installed new engine air filter. P/N BA3 X1.
3. Removed engine oil and oil screen. Checked for metal. None found. Put 7 quarts of W100 in. Owner supplied 5. Oil W100 X7.
4. Couple of teeth on ring gear in rough shape. Filed sharp edges off.
5. Missing fastener on engine baffle. Installed new bolt.
6. Checked mag timing. All is ok.
7. Upper Exhaust clamp is close to rudder rod for steering. Adjusted clamp so it isn’t near steering rod.
8. Rocker covers removed for 400hrs inspection. Reccomended by piper and because engine is going “on condition”. All checked and new gaskets installed. P/N SL75906 X4.
9. Put Lycoming engine additive in.
10. Compression test cold #1 75/80 #2 72/80 #3 75/80 #4 72/80.
11. Vacuum pump bolt a little loose. Tightened as required.
12. Mag timing checked ok.
13. Engine hoses checked ok at this point in time.

Propeller Specific Work Completed

1. Prop sent to Leavens for 5 year corrosion inspection. Installed propeller. Torqued to specs in MM and lockwired bolts. Work Order #81-0113.

Recurring Airworthiness Directive Compliance Work Completed

AD69-22-02 Failure of control wheel – c/w using AD. No defects found. Next inspection due June 2009.

AD70-16-05 Cracks in muffler – C/w using AD. No Defects found. Next inspection due June 2009.

AD95-26-13R1A Oil Cooler Hose Ruptures – C/W using AD. No defects found. Next Inspection June 2009.

AD CP90-03R2 Exhaust type cabin heater –C/W using AD. No defects found. Next inspection Due June 2000.

Lycoming O-320-E2AS/N L-15941-27A is “ON CONDITION”

- Compression test needs to be done every 25 hrs.

- Run Engine to see if pulls full RPM every 25 hrs.

- Oil and filter needs to be changed every 50 hrs.

- Pilots need to notify mechanics on oil consumption.

- Oil analysis done yearly. Start of the year and at end of the year to see if there is much difference.

I have not received the detailed invoice yet but will certainly update you with the costs of this annual.

A few things I wanted to mention with this one. This time round my mechanic made me a snag list that we went through. He started by asking how I wanted the annual conducted; in accordance with Transport Canada’s requirements or in accordance with Piper’s recommendations. As the manufacturers list is much more involved and detailed it is substantially more money to perform. That said I certainly want a safe and well running airplane. So I informed him that I would like TC’s requirement as the minimum and I would like to see Piper’s recommendations. The idea being that we can keep an eye on what piper recommends and replace it little by little.

Par example: Piper recommends that the oil hoses be replaced every 5 years whether physically required or not. Well my hoses are considerably older then the 5 year recommendation but are still quite serviceable. There for we decided that we would note Pipers recommendation and consider replacing the hoses next year. I still have a safe a/c but can anticipate replacing said hoses.

Another issue is the overall time of the engine. TBO (Time Before Overhaul) on my engine is 2000 hrs and at 1954.8hrs it is getting close. The term “On Condition” only really applies to commercial aircraft in Canada but it is prudent to run my Private engine through the same gauntlet. Keeping an eye on it is not only a safe thing to do, but is important to protecting your investment. A factory overhaul is ~$25,000.00. Yikes!

I also change the oil every 25hrs, which is more frequently then recommended.

There is also the issue of corrosion. The paint is flaking off in some areas and I need to get out to the airport sometime to give it a touch up. The skin is Aluminum so oxidization on that isn’t so much the concern. However there are a few steel parts that attach to the aluminum (ie. Brackets, step, etc.). These need to be properly protected against the elements. I anticipate bringing the camera with me and document my beautification process.

Worth noting in this blog is the issue coming up in February regarding the ELTs. I am tired from typing everything so I think I will add this in another entry soon.

All in all I am looking at about $3100.00 for this annual between my partner and myself. Not too bad. Atleast it wasn’t a surprise!
On a very happy note.....I FINALLY WENT FLYING! After over a year of being on the ground with my eyes aimed skywart I finally got to punch a hole in the sky! I went up with a pilot buddy of mine. We got some gas at CNB9 (Lake Simcoe regional) and did a lap there. He flew us there, I flew 1 circuit, and home. I came in a high and hot but the oleos didn't shoot through the top of the wing and I am typing so it wasnt too bad. Trust me there is much more to come! Awesomeniss.

No Flight Today....GRRRR....
Well I got myself a new instructor and we were scheduled to fly today. Unfortunately he had to be called away to some other pressing business, but even more unfortunately, I neglected to give him my cell number so I sat around the airport for a bit snapping pics of some pretty airplanes waiting for my lesson to start. No big loss, I found out soon enough and I spent some time looking over UBC and the journey log. In my last entry I listed the parts that went on UBC during the annual and didnt really know what they were. Fortunately in the Journey there is an entry by my mechanic that addresses where the parts went and what they were.

AIRFRAME WORK COMPLETED
-Found main tires to be in bad shape. Installed new main tires and tubes. (Tire 6.00X6X6TT Air Hawk QTY 2, Tube 6.00X6 Tube QTY 2)
-Installed new instrument and vacuum filters. (Instrument RA-D9-18-1 QTY 1, Vacuum RA-B3-5-1 QTY 1)
-Brake linings worn. Installed new linings. (Brake lining RA-66-106 QTY 4, Rivet RA105-00200 QTY
-Nut on nose landing gear in poor shape. Replaced with new. (Nut 404 101 QTY 1)
-Cowl screws all rusted and stripped. Installed new ones. (Screw AN32R10 QTY 45)

ENGINE SPECIFIC WORK COMPLETED
-Engine compression test, hot: #1 70/80, #2 75/80, #3 70/80 #4 72/80.
-Removed Oil Filter and checked for metal contaminates. Non found, installed new filter (Filter CH48103-1 QTY 1)
-Drained engine oil and replentished with 7 U.S. Quarts of Aeroshell W100.
-Altenator belt in bad shape replaced with new. (Belt 37B19774-341 QTY 1)
-Spark plugs in bad shape. Replaced all with new. (Spark Plug REM40E QTY
-Found rocker cover gaskets leaking. Installed all new ones. (Gasket SL75906 QTY 4)
- All Engine hoses checked and are servicable until next inspection.

Every annual (and now every 25hrs) the cylinders get checked for compression. The best I understand (and anyone can correct me on this) is that they fill the cylinders with 80 pounds of air and see how much it will hold within a set amount of time. So from what I understand the #3 cylinder leaked 10pounds of air, but that is still quite good. The reason we need to do a compression test every 25 hours is because the engine is "on condition" this term realistically from a legal standpoint only extends to commercial operation but on a private level just means that the engine should be watched after extra hard. The Lycoming engines go on condition after the TBO (Time before overhaul) in this case 2000 hrs, or 12 years after manufacture. These engines are known to run easily run into the 3000 hrs and are done quite often, but its just Lycomings way of telling you if you dont overhaul the engine they have nothing to do with it if your plane falls out of the sky. Now everyone should baby the engine anyway but when on condition you have to be extra careful. Think of it as your grandma. Your grandma may be one of those extreme fit ladies who are still jogging and going crazy at her old age, but she still better go in for more frequent check ups to make sure that hip isn't gunning to snap on her.

On my annual report it says:

Lycoming O-320-E2A S/N :-15941-27A is going "ON CONDITION" as of this annual. -Compression test needs to be done every 25 hrs. -Run engine to see if it pulls full rpm, every 25 hrs. -Oil and filter needs to be changed every 50 hrs. -Pilots need to notify mechanics on oil consumption.

So you can see that the mechanic is reccomending increased inspections to ensure proper care of the engine and that way if anything starts to go we can catch it before it becomes a catastrophic failure. I allready do regular oil changes every 25 hours, but during that I do not change the filter. The reason being is that it isn't like a regular car filter cartridge. On this particular engine it is a filter screen in the oil sump area. You have to be a licensed mechanic to pull this. So I plan on doing my oil change every 25hrs and every 50hrs have the mechanic pull the screen while I have it drained.

On the annual they also go through Airworthiness Directives (ADs) that get issued by the manufacturer. Basically these are reocurring potential problems that are checked at each Annual (or 100hr) inspection to make sure that it isn't just waiting to fail.

From my inspection report
RECURRING AIRWORTHINESS DIRECTIVE COMPLIANCE WORK COMPLETED

-AD 69-22-02 Failure of control wheel - C/W using AD. No defects found. Next inspection due April 08 or at 5824.2.
-AD 70-16-05 Cracks in muffler -C/W using AD. No defects found. Next inspection due April 08 or at 5824.2
-AD 95-26-13R1A Oil cooler hose ruptures - C/W using AD. No defects found. Next inspection due April 08 or at 5824.2.
-AD CF90-03R2 Exhaust type cabin heater - C/W using AD. No defects found. Next inspection due April 08 or at 5824.2.

The last one and the second is an important point. Many GA cabin heaters are a heat exchanger shroudes that go around the muffler. When the cabin heat vent is opened, air goes through the heat exchanger shroud heating up the air with the heat from the muffler and going into the cabain. Quite an effective and efficient way of heating the cabin. Unfortunately these systems are known to crack and introduce CO (Carbon Monoxide) into the cockpit. CO being a colourless, odourless, poisonus gas is quite dangerous and is created by incomplete combustion. This gas will cause drowsiness, eratic behaviour, eventually loss of conciousness, and eventually death. Many a pilot has succomed to CO and fallen asleep with the a/c making its way to Terra Firma. This is exactly why we have littl CO detectors in the aircraft. These CO detectors are to be replaced every 18 months, but I think I will do it every annual, just to be sure.

Well that ends this entry. I apologise for the length but I thought if anyone actually cares they might find this interesting.

Untill next time, keep on rocking in the free world.

Niss

Tuesday, May 29, 2007
Cha Muther&*$#ing Ching!
Well my partner and I budgeted for roughly $2500 - $3000 for our annual. Our annual in May of 06 set us back $2000. This time I asked for new tires and to replace the gaskets on the rocker covers as they were leacking a little oil. Well at the end of the annual I was stairing down the business end of a $4600 bill. Aint flying grand? Well close to 5 grand actually.
Just to run you through the work that was done on my a/c.
7 qts of Aeroshell 100 - 48.65
45 Misc bolts - 63.00
1 Nut - 3.15
1 Pneumatic Filter - 29.50
1 more Pneumatic Filter - 12.15
8 Spark Plugs - 385.20
2 Main Tires - 263.88
2 Main Tire Tubes - 206.92
4 Rocker Cover Gaskets 14.95
4 Break Pads - 49.28
8 Brake Rivets - 1.70
1 Belt - 63.05
1 Plate (?) - 105.96
ELT Battery & Recertification & S/H - 289.00
48 hrs of labour @ 65.00/hr = 3120.00
Now I am grateful that my mechanic takes such good care of me, he has been very honest with me in the past, and looks out for my best interest (I used to work for him). As you may have noticed a few of these items were not exactly part of my snag list (I requested tires, tubes and gaskets) but were done anyway. I am happy to have fresh plugs and breaks but unfortunately this was an unexpected installation. As far as I could remember the plane started and stopped ok, but new is better than old in many cases.
The way they found out I needed new plugs is by using a spark plug tester like this one. What it does is when connected to electricity and compressed air it will simulate spark in the cylinder. You can adjust the simulated RPM by increasing the pressure and moniture the spark. My spark plugs performed fine at Idle (800-1000RPM) but when taken above that the spark weakens and eventually disappears. What this means is that I am not burning the fuel air mixture in the cylinders the best I could. This means that I may not be getting the best power, it may lead to spark plug fouling, etc. Its best to have a good spark. So I now have 8 new spark plugs in my plane. For those of you whom arent in the know my PA28-140 has a Lycoming O-320-E2A producing 150hp, it means that my engine is horizontally opposed as indicated by the 'O' and 320 cubic inches. The E2A is simply a model number that would change depending on the accessories on the engine. My engine is 4 cylinders but we have 8 plugs run off magnetos for a few reasons:
1) More complete combustion, cleaner burning, more power, etc.
2) Saftey in redundancy, there are 2 magnetos each running 4 plugs, should the electrical system fail, the engine keeps spinning because of the magneto, should one magneto go, I can still fly the sucker.
When they got to the breaks apparantly they were worn down quite a bit, so we got new pads to keep me from going off the end of the runway.
I do not mind my mechanics intrest in my safety and my a/c at all however I do wish in the future that they ask me for authorization to perform such replacements. This was an extra $1500 that I was not expecting. Atleast I could have talked to my partner about it and decided if we wanted to go through with it. Obviously its better to have fresh stuff on the plane but it started and stopped just fine before the annual. We probably could have gone another few months or even a whole year. Oh well live and learn.
On a whole I am very happy with the work my mechanic has done, I have no complaint about the price or quality of the work. I just wish in the future I could have had more warning. Next annual I hope to be able to help with it so I can get a more intimate look at my airplane and also have to let my mechanic know I want to be contacted before new parts go in the a/c.
Tomorrow I have a flight with my new instructor, Ill report on how it went.
Adios Amigos!

[AEROBAT]

If you can average $1000/year for an annual you are doing very good. I own a homebuilt so I do my own annuals and in 10 years I have replaced the mags once, put in 4 new jugs and pistons, new prop, a set of tires lasts about 2 years, 2 new tail wheels, 3 batteries and I will need another one soon. At least two oil changes a year, usually three. Replaced fuel lines once and will need to do it again this year. Fabricated new fuel tank once. Replaced aileron hinges once. Replaced alternator once and put in new starter once. Overhauled carb once.

It takes me at least one full day to do the annual if there is no snags and this is a very simple basic plane. No gyros or transponder and no AD's to research. Plus I know every inch of it.

[pistonpounder]

There is a simple solution to this ongoing problem, all AME's should just charge the exact same price of say 1200.00 all across canada, then there would be no b******* as it would cost the same everywhere, everyone is getting paid fairly, annuals are being carried out to the same standard.

[mag check]

There is a simple solution to this ongoing problem, all AME's should just charge the exact same price of say 1200.00 all across canada, then there would be no b******* as it would cost the same everywhere, everyone is getting paid fairly, annuals are being carried out to the same standard.

That would work for an annual on a pa28, or 172, but what about a baron, or a 421. Would you do an inspection on one of those for 1200 bucks? I know I wouldn't.

I just don't get it, an aircraft owner will pay around 4% of the value of the plane per year for insurance, but get upset when the maintenance to keep the plane in the air costs 1% of the value.
$100,000 aircraft, owner will cut the check to the insurance broker for ~$4000, because the broker won't give him a choice. Pay, or don't fly. Very simple. Come annual time, the same owner will complain, and try to buy the parts himself, or try to convince the AME to let some things go, and will often be flying illegally because of it, all because they think they can get away with a $1000 annual.
Personally, I would be more concerned about getting a quality annual, because if you convince your AME to shortcut anything, or try and save money by purchasing an unapproved part etc. then it won't matter if you paid your insurance or not, because they won't be paying out after an accident, as your C of A will be invalid.

[office_supply]

If we assume my aircraft's value is the hull value listed on the insurance, then:

I pay 5% of my aircraft's value yearly on insurance.
I pay 6 to 8% of my aircraft's value on the annual inspection.

As for SeptRepair's earlier rant... Whether my AME or me order the parts, they'll be ordered from the same company, at the same price. There may be shipping difference, there may not be. I take the cheapest shipping option. Sure that means parts take 4 to 5 days instead of 2 or 3... but really... When my last two annuals have taken a combined 9 months to do... an extra few days to order a part is minuscule.

I've yet to order a wrong part too, by the way.

[CBAME]

Good Day

Heres my take on the whole annual situation, your annual will take what it takes. Different aircraft take different aounts of time,

As for the parts situation, it use to bother me when I worked in GA how I would spend time going through parts books looking for a P/N and even getting a price and availability, all this takes time, only to have the customer decide he or she will take care of the parts, that equals lost labour.

If I had my own shope the owner and I would discuss who is responsible for what parts before I start, and that person would also have to find the part number make sure it fits thier S/N and make sure it had a cert that makes me happy to install.

Just my 2 cents

P.S I do spell check my log book entires

[PAJ]

Particularly interesting thread for me as a new owner. I see both sides of this dilemma. Bottom line - a thorough job has to be done to keep all safe but this has to be balanced with a fair price for both AME and owner.

And owners please, buy manuals for your aircraft. I hate borrowing from people I have made contacts with over the years, but without them the inspection or parts research would not even happen for the tightwads that don't want to spend the few hundred. My connections may also sometimes bill me, so quite honestly it would be cheaper for the owner to aquire thier own manuals, the amount I bill over 2 years for time borrowing would get you a nice new set of books for yourself.

I suppose I should know this but what manuals are you referring to? I assume this is something in addition to the standard tech logs?

Thanks

[itismedd]

K_M_T means the Maintenance Manual and Parts catalog for your specific aircraft.

[CBAME]

Oh I fogot about the Manual situations, There is no better feeling knowing you helped someone who makes way more then you, save some money buy letting them use your expensive manual subscribtion so they can order their own parts and install the parts.

I heard Its in the CARS if you operate from a VAN or your own grass feild you do not need current manuals. I also read that its ok to dig through the dumpster looking for expired fiche cards, wow am i bitter

[ME109]

While we are on the topic of rip offs - don't forget to add the cost added to your annual because some shmuck refused to pay his bill. There are plenty of owners out there refusing to pay the bill for the work done on their aircraft. They do not question a $120/hour bill from their BMW dealership while complaining about a $60-80/hour bill for their aircraft. I guess some owners just can't get past the thought that AME's are professionals trying to earn a living. Some seem to think that since aviation is their hobby it should be the same for the AME's out there working on their aircraft. Where else can some one go and expect others to do them a favor and work for free. Doctors, Lawyers, Accountants etc. do not do it. Why is it only aviation where pilots and engineers etc. is there an expectation to work for peanuts or less.

[ruddersup?]

Dr. Piper, 20 hours for a light twin like an Aztec? You can't do it in 40 hours ! ! ! 20 hours for the cowls on and off never mind gut the interior and do a gear swing and ........
I'm totally against owners buying parts. What are we, a charity? We need that mark up on parts to survive. No parts then labour has to go up. I've had owners buy batteries or camlocs or fuel caps or whatever and most times the wrong part. The AMO must have control of parts ordering for scheduling employees so everything is accomplished expediently to get aircraft out of the hangar. If we don't, then ame's are moved around and the whole process is inefficient. Aircraft pieces everywhere, move this aircraft there, bring in another, well you get the idea before you know it there are several aircraft waiting for parts. Who pays for this?

[CBAME]

Exactly pieces everywhere planes tied up outside and put together half-azzed, its soo inefficent. owneres bringing in the wrong part then want it put on yesterday, or worse, they have the piece and will bring it by sometime this week, while the aircraft sits in the hangar taking up space. I think the best way to do this is to Snag everything that is wrong in the log book give it back to them let them do what they want with it. and do the work when they get the parts, it might take longer but then they can get billed twide for taking the cowls off of a aztec and maybe then will let us order the parts.

And for the charity thing, I was once offered a lunch to work on someones aircraft,
and I know others have too. somehow something has to change. I think if i were to leave my current job, i would leave the industry.

[LousyFisherman]

Have you people (AMEs) ever thought that you get lousy customers because of your (or your bosses') attitude?

Examples:

I would spend time going through parts books looking for a P/N and even getting a price and availability, all this takes time, only to have the customer decide he or she will take care of the parts, that equals lost labour.

Why are you not billing for ALL your time and giving the parts at cost?

And owners please, buy manuals for your aircraft.

A manual is a part. How, am I supposed to know the correct part numbers for the manuals? Buy the manuals and invoice me, or charge me some access fee or whatever. Why are you doing it for free?

while the aircraft sits in the hangar taking up space.

If it is taking up space and nothing is being done bill it!!!

We need that mark up on parts to survive.

You do? Actually you don't if you bill properly. The fact that you are hiding your margins in parts demonstrates that you are not billing for your skills and will scare off "good" customers because they are no longer aware of the real material or labour costs. What do you do if no parts are required? Do the job at a loss?

Guys (and gals), I am not a professional in the aviation business, but I run a consulting company with 12 employees. We would go bankrupt if we ran our business according to the above. If a customer objects to any of the above tell him to go elsewhere. If, like my ownership group, the customer accepts the above, then you want to keep him/her comng back, maybe a break on the hourly rate would be appreciated. And don't charge for shop supplies, include them in the rate, do you charge for electricity, heating or water?

My consultants prefer to work for $70/hour for our "good" customers rather than $90/hour for a new unknown customer. We accept 1-2 new customers a year. We have 14 long term clients. The number of private owners requiring annuals is much larger than those numbers, so what is your problem in telling bad customers to go elsewhere. Maybe because you don't have enough good customers?

So the question becomes why do you not have enough good customers? Could it be related to how you or your boss run your business? If you do not invoice or bill ALL of your time then, in my opinion. you are not running your business properly, which in my opinion, will scare off the "good" customers.

As I said above I really do not understand the aviation business

LF

[On condition]

The road to hell is paved with people who tried to apply their non-aviation business practices in aviation.

[Ballsssssss]

The road to hell is paved with people who tried to apply their non-aviation business practices in aviation.

Part of the problem with Aviation is all the management positions are held by aviation people with no training/experience in management and smart business practices.

[ruddersup?]

Lousy, I wish you were correct but I think you are in lala land. Being an owner/operator for a long time I feel I can make this comment. I am not an AME working out of a pickup who can do an annual for a few hundred bucks (cash, no tax). I think we are similar to an auto dealership providing sales and service with the added expense of bowing to Transport. Auto repair labour rates have always been higher than aviation and this is out of line. Now stick about $25/hr on top of our present rate and then I would gladly work on discounting parts. The numbers don't work well now nor have they in the time I've been around. Overhead is too high and we just don't have aircraft piled up like cord wood like most car dealers in our small market area. It is expensive to maintain an aircraft to T.C. standards in an approved shop and if you take your 20, 30, 40, year old car into a dealership for maintenance, or your old boat into the marina, well look out. Maybe not a good analogy but aviation has the spotlight for some reason. Have customers that want an oil change and actually bring in oil and filter. We've let them develop this mentality, why? IMHO