PPL Flight Test Question

[niss]

Is using a checklist for emergencies allowed or do they want to see if you can do that kind of thing from memory, IE fires, etc.

[loopa]

A good method that I use to teach emergencies is,

Anything that could get you KILLED, you need to have memorized.

Such as, engine fire, cabin fire, engine failure, etc

And things that don't get you killed, like alternator failure or door open in flight, you can refer to your checklist.


It all really boils down to the scenario; if you have time to deal with the scenario, use the checklist ! But if it's a scenario where you need to act quickly, there's no time for the checklist. You need to do it from memory and confirm with checklist.


The bigger and heavier the planes get, the more memory items there are ! So get used to it from now


Hope that helps.

[taylor498]

I'm sure you've had a look at this section at some point, I'll just include it for easy reference for this post...

Ex. 29 - Emergency Procedures/ Malfunctions

Aim

To determine that the candidate can react promptly and correctly to emergencies and system or equipment malfunctions.

Description

The candidate will demonstrate adequate knowledge of the emergency procedures of the systems, subsystems and devices installed on the aeroplane type. Assessment may be carried out during any portion of the flight test.

Performance Criteria

Assessment will be based on the candidate's ability to analyze a situation, take appropriate action and follow appropriate memory items, emergency checklists items and/or procedures for any two (2) of the following simulated emergencies/malfunctions, as specified by the examiner:

partial power loss
rough engine operation or overheat
loss of oil pressure
fuel starvation
electrical fire
vacuum system failure
pitot or static blockage
cabin fire
icing
electrical malfunctions
landing gear malfunctions
brake failure or seizure
flap failure
door opening in flight
spin recovery
emergency descent

any other emergency unique to the aeroplane flown
It is the sole responsibility of the examiner to determine if aeroplane performance, weather conditions and other factors permit the safe conduct of an emergency procedure in flight or on the ground with the engine running. Some of the items may be tested on the ground with the engine shut down.

it's a CHECKlist, not a DOlist. Yes, you should know all the stuff on it (cue cards with "engine fire on start" on one side and the procedure on the reverse) and be able to do most of them without thinking about it AND understand WHY you are doing it. After that has been done, confirm with the list.

There was another quote from Cat Driver believe, but I can't find it. Anyways, I know an examiner that will give the candidate a "2" on the forced approach if you don't pull the checklist at some point, (after "memory" items) even if it's perfect in execution. I know other examiners that will not penalize you for not pulling the checklist on the forced. I'm sure a PE can address this...

From my understanding of the flight test guide, it doesn't explicitly say you need to memorize every single one of those procedures. It does however, say that the candidate needs to respond "...promptly and correctly to emergencies" and "demonstrate adequate knowledge of the emergency procedures." If the examiner asks for an engine fire, and the first thing you do is reach for the checklist, this is probably demonstrating a poor understanding of the importance of the situation. Sometimes different PE's have slightly different interpretations of the flight test guide. But you as a candidate have access to the source document, to read and interpret for yourself.

[modi13]

One of my classmates was given a 2 on his forced approach because after he completed the procedure he didn't take out the checklist to make sure he hadn't missed anything. That was the only instance I've heard of it, so I imagine it's at the examiner's discretion to determine whether that counts as good PDM.

[FlaplessDork]

The forced landing item is not only about gliding to a point, it is also about managing an emergency situation, making correct decisions and following prescribed procedures that lead to a successful approach and landing.

The engine failure will be simulated in accordance with the method recommended by the manufacturer. When possible, engine failure should be simulated from approx. 3,000 feet AGL with no advanced warning. However, you should ensure that some suitable landing areas are available within the field of vision of the candidate and within gliding range of the aircraft. Provided the aim of the exercise is accomplished in an organized manner, you should not be adversely influenced if the procedure used varies from your own preferred procedure. In all cases, advise the candidates of the emergency by stating “simulated engine failure”. The candidate is expected to establish the aeroplane in a glide as recommended, but is permitted to increase that speed, as required, to permit a successful and safe approach without exceeding any airframe limitations (i.e. Vfe).

As this is a simulated procedure, the candidate will be expected to demonstrate good airmanship by clearing the engine at appropriate intervals during the descent. The practice of leaving some power on and achieving a normal descent angle and airspeed by using flap is acceptable in very cold conditions. You should determine how the candidate plans to execute this item during the pre-flight briefing.

Occasionally a candidate will, after commencing the forced landing, indicate a preference for another landing area. Normally a change of intended landing area during the approach is not acceptable, as one of the main competencies the examiner is required to assess during this exercise is the candidate's ability to fly an approach to a pre-selected landing area.

A change of field is acceptable from an altitude and a point in the approach where a landing could still have been made on the original landing site.

You will evaluate the candidate’s ability to safely handle this emergency through 2 separate flight test items, namely 22A. Control/Approach, where you assess the actual hands-on flying skills and the ability to ‘make the field’. In 22B. Cockpit Management, the candidate must demonstrate good airmanship and complete basic safety checks.

[C-GPFG]

One of my classmates was given a 2 on his forced approach because after he completed the procedure he didn't take out the checklist

That seems a bit harsh, unless the forced was started from 10,000' agl. Was he suppose to pull it out in the middle of the field he just landed in?

[modi13]

We thought it was a ridiculous reason to give him a low mark, since he completed the procedure and made the field; we didn't see the point in memorizing all the emergency checklists if we needed to take them out anyway. In any case, from 3000' I've always had time to complete the procedure, with plenty of time to spare that could have been used for getting the checklist out; even from 2000' if you're on the ball you should be able to do it.

[BoostedNihilist]

my instructor hammered that into me since lesson one. Do the checklist and then check the fuckin thing.. If I didn't check the checklist, I got punished. (spanked to be precise)

[taylor498]

my instructor hammered that into me since lesson one. Do the checklist and then check the fuckin thing.. If I didn't check the checklist, I got punished. (spanked to be precise)

I'm not saying it's right or wrong... but clearly you were left with the impression that the checklist was an essential part of the procedure. Isn't the only essential part of the forced that you made the field, in a stable descent? Sometimes you don't have time to pull the checklist, just fly the plane. Engine failure after takeoff, below circuit altitude for example. Are you going to pull the checklist? Certainly hope not. However your instinct from practicing a forced will be to always pull the checklist. Primacy is important.

[loopa]

my instructor hammered that into me since lesson one. Do the checklist and then check the fuckin thing.. If I didn't check the checklist, I got punished. (spanked to be precise)

I'm not saying it's right or wrong... but clearly you were left with the impression that the checklist was an essential part of the procedure. Isn't the only essential part of the forced that you made the field, in a stable descent? Sometimes you don't have time to pull the checklist, just fly the plane. Engine failure after takeoff, below circuit altitude for example. Are you going to pull the checklist? Certainly hope not. However your instinct from practicing a forced will be to always pull the checklist. Primacy is important.

I'm going to be the devils advocate here and say that what his instructor told him is indeed dangerous. If that's what the instructor "hammered" into him from day 1, that means that he's giving the student the wrong "idea" about flying. Why? because it seems like this student would pull out the checklist before flying an airplane. That to me sounds dangerous. I much rather have my student make a plan of action, and go through the memory items of a forced approach in tone of making the field rather than pulling the checklist when the engine fails on him.

Sure, there are different scenarios; if you're at 9000 feet, you have approximately 17 to 18 minutes before hitting the ground. Then I would pull out the checklist and follow it like a bible if my memory items don't cut it. But if you're at 50 feet with an engine failure right after take off, should you really be pulling the checklist?

[BoostedNihilist]

I'm not saying it's right or wrong... but clearly you were left with the impression that the checklist was an essential part of the procedure. Isn't the only essential part of the forced that you made the field, in a stable descent? Sometimes you don't have time to pull the checklist, just fly the plane. Engine failure after takeoff, below circuit altitude for example. Are you going to pull the checklist? Certainly hope not. However your instinct from practicing a forced will be to always pull the checklist. Primacy is important.

You're thinking about this in terms which are too broad.

Is pulling out the checklist essential? No.. but you get a 2...

I want 4s so I will pull out the checklist.

There is more to a forced than 1 checklist..

Besides, an emergency is when you will forget an item on the checklist.. it's different when you're expecting the power to be pulled abeam the numbers...

I'm going to be the devils advocate here and say that what his instructor told him is indeed dangerous. If that's what the instructor "hammered" into him from day 1, that means that he's giving the student the wrong "idea" about flying. Why? because it seems like this student would pull out the checklist before flying an airplane. That to me sounds dangerous

I'm pretty sure that air canada captains pull out a checklist before flying the airplane.... I pull out the checklist before I step foot in the aircarft? Why, because at my FTU it is part of the required documents... things you must have to fly.. So what do you teach your students? Not to check if they have all the documents they need to fly?

Engine failure after takeoff, below circuit altitude for example. Are you going to pull the checklist? Certainly hope not. However your instinct from practicing a forced will be to always pull the checklist. Primacy is important.

I have *NEVER* *EVER* heard of this being a FLIGHT TEST item... Besides, you have essentially already gone over this checklist in the EFATO brief before takeoff...

Bottom line is, if you are happy with 2s don't pull the checklist... I guarantee you though you will get less than a two if you miss an item AND forget to check the list.. your choice.

Dangerous is forgetting to shut the fuel off before you crash land...

[loopa]

I'm not saying it's right or wrong... but clearly you were left with the impression that the checklist was an essential part of the procedure. Isn't the only essential part of the forced that you made the field, in a stable descent? Sometimes you don't have time to pull the checklist, just fly the plane. Engine failure after takeoff, below circuit altitude for example. Are you going to pull the checklist? Certainly hope not. However your instinct from practicing a forced will be to always pull the checklist. Primacy is important.

You're thinking about this in terms which are too broad.

Is pulling out the checklist essential? No.. but you get a 2...

I want 4s so I will pull out the checklist.

There is more to a forced than 1 checklist..

Besides, an emergency is when you will forget an item on the checklist.. it's different when you're expecting the power to be pulled abeam the numbers...

I'm going to be the devils advocate here and say that what his instructor told him is indeed dangerous. If that's what the instructor "hammered" into him from day 1, that means that he's giving the student the wrong "idea" about flying. Why? because it seems like this student would pull out the checklist before flying an airplane. That to me sounds dangerous

I'm pretty sure that air canada captains pull out a checklist before flying the airplane.... I pull out the checklist before I step foot in the aircarft? Why, because at my FTU it is part of the required documents... things you must have to fly.. So what do you teach your students? Not to check if they have all the documents they need to fly?

Engine failure after takeoff, below circuit altitude for example. Are you going to pull the checklist? Certainly hope not. However your instinct from practicing a forced will be to always pull the checklist. Primacy is important.

I have *NEVER* *EVER* heard of this being a FLIGHT TEST item... Besides, you have essentially already gone over this checklist in the EFATO brief before takeoff...

Bottom line is, if you are happy with 2s don't pull the checklist... I guarantee you though you will get less than a two if you miss an item AND forget to check the list.. your choice.

Dangerous is forgetting to shut the fuel off before you crash land...

Maybe you have misunderstood my reply;

I was saying that pulling out the checklist should not be the FIRST thing you do in the event of a forced landing. It's something you should do after completing the memory items, if you have time.

Speaking of airline pilots, they have a QRH for most things because a forced approach for them entails much more; hence why you have two crews up front. One dude flying the plane, another dude doing the necessary checks. Or however the hell else the captain desires suitable to fit the situation.

I agree with the fact that you NEED to follow a checklist. It's a part of good airmanship. When you walk into the plane, yes you start with the appropriate checklists and work through them until the end of the flight.

Whether it be a flight test item or not, are you going to pull a checklist if you have an engine failure right after take off?

Let's not forget, the flight test is a sampling of your ability to proficiently fly the airplane. While you're trying to meet the aim and procedural elements of the exercise, the examiner is evaluating you on the big picture as well.

Hopefully that develops a better insight into what I was intending with my reply.


Good Day

[taylor498]

I'm pretty sure that air canada captains pull out a checklist before flying the airplane.... I pull out the checklist before I step foot in the aircarft? Why, because at my FTU it is part of the required documents... things you must have to fly.. So what do you teach your students? Not to check if they have all the documents they need to fly?

Speaking of airline pilots, they have a QRH for most things because a forced approach for them entails much more; hence why you have two crews up front. One dude flying the plane, another dude doing the necessary checks

+1, Two crew is a totally different ballgame. The PF and PNF system ensures someone is always flying the airplane.

I was saying that pulling out the checklist should not be the FIRST thing you do in the event of a forced landing. It's something you should do after completing the memory items, if you have time.

+1, If you have time.

Engine failure after takeoff, below circuit altitude for example. Are you going to pull the checklist? Certainly hope not. However your instinct from practicing a forced will be to always pull the checklist. Primacy is important.

I have *NEVER* *EVER* heard of this being a FLIGHT TEST item...

They are not teaching you to pass a flight test, they're teaching you how to fly an airplane. These are important skills which will affect your flying for the rest of your life.

PRIMACY - Present new knowledge or skills correctly the first time. (Teach it right the first time.)
When students are presented with new knowledge or skills, the first impression received is almost unshakeable. This means that what you teach must be correct the first time. Students may forget the details of lessons, but will retain an overall image of the skill or knowledge for a long time.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I would be very disappointed to see an examiner give a "2" to a candidate who properly controlled the aircraft as he/she performed a cause check from memory and then flew a safe approach such that the aircraft was well positioned to make a survivable landing, but did not pull out and read from a printed checklist. A for real forced approach is a potentially life or death manoever therefore being able to quickly do everything you need to do to maximise getting the engine going is extremely important and then if there is no restart then getting the aircraft to a suitable spot, in good order are the only two things that matter. The rest of the bumpf is firmly in the "nice to do catagory" and is completely time and situation dependant.

This flawed view of priorities may arise from the problem many FTU's seem to have with checklist in general. It is a mystery to me why the concept of "flows" is not embraced by the flight training industry as it has much value for single pilot operations. By flow, I mean have all checklists, normal and emergency, follow a logical linear and consistant pattern of actions. For example in the C 172 all my checkilist start at the fuel selector and move in a anti clockwise circle around the panel ending at carbheat/throttle/mixture knobs. This is especially valuable for emergency checklists which require memory actions. So for the forced approach emergency example, because the flow of the cause check and the flow of the shut downcheck is the same it is easier to remember and do under pressure and the muscle memory will help alert you to a missed item. If circumstances permit you can then go over the printed checklist for a further verification. But if you don't there is still a high probabilty that you will have done all the required actions.

[patter]

Flight Test Forced is given 3000AGL, Rate of descent is approx, 600ft per minute. That is 5 minutes to prepare for forced. Are you saying you don't have time to pull a checklist? CARS 602.60 states they are to be referred to. Memory items at the small airline level only have 4-5 critical items, then pull the checklist. Why have a 20 item memory list for a private pilot. Seems like fawlty logic.

[loopa]

Flight Test Forced is given 3000AGL, Rate of descent is approx, 600ft per minute. That is 5 minutes to prepare for forced. Are you saying you don't have time to pull a checklist? CARS 602.60 states they are to be referred to. Memory items at the small airline level only have 4-5 critical items, then pull the checklist. Why have a 20 item memory list for a private pilot. Seems like fawlty logic.

+1

But do you do the memory items before the checklist on the forced approach?

[Big Pistons Forever]

It would sure be nice if every "for real no shit " forced approach started at 3000 Agl comfortably close to the field which you have allready practiced several PFL's.....
I don't teach to the test I teach to the real world.... So you work on efficiently doing the flow memory items and concentrate on accurately flying the airplane. The rest is great if you can do it....

Since at least 80% of the for real forced approaches are a result of pilot induced engine failures I also spend as much effort on not having the engine fail in the first place as I do in dealing with flying the deadstick approach.

[modi13]

It would sure be nice if every "for real no shit " forced approach started at 3000 Agl comfortably close to the field which you have allready practiced several PFL's.....
I don't teach to the test I teach to the real world.... So you work on efficiently doing the flow memory items and concentrate on accurately flying the airplane. The rest is great if you can do it....

Since at least 80% of the for real forced approaches are a result of pilot induced engine failures I also spend as much effort on not having the engine fail in the first place as I do in dealing with flying the deadstick approach.

Not only that, how frequently will you have a nice clear field on which to land? A lot of the time you have available is likely to be spent trying to find a suitable place to land, and determine which gap in the trees is slightly bigger. I would also never turn my eyes away from the windscreen in order to reach across the cabin or back into the cargo hold to fumble around for a checklist while 1000' above the ground while trying to set up my approach.

[patter]

Are you merely a competent pilot or an expert pilot? The expert pilot uses all of his tools. Memory and a checklist in order to increase his working memory and his situational awareness.
You choose who you are going to be.

[loopa]

Are you merely a competent pilot or an expert pilot? The expert pilot uses all of his tools. Memory and a checklist in order to increase his working memory and his situational awareness.
You choose who you are going to be.

+1 My friend.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Expert pilots do the right thing at the right time. It is up to the instructor to help his/her students learn how to make these kind of judgements. That is my beef with the "we will practice our PFL's by starting at 3000' ft because that is what is on the flight test". The PPL is not that long a course if done properly, so I think it is very important that the forced approach exercise is introduced in a wide variety of situations and altitudes, so as to best prepare the student. Some of these situations will by design preclude the time to utilize the printed checklist. However that does not mean I highly encourage students to use every available aid when/as appopriate. This of course includes utilizing the written checklist when it is appropriate to the situation not you get a 2 on the exercise if you don't put your head down and read the checklist.

[loopa]

I also agree with you BPF; too many instructors are teaching how to pass the flight test rather than being a good pilot. They're overseeing the fact that the FT is a sampling of the students ability. What should go into a students knowledge bank should exceed that of the flight test standards.

[patter]

My personal opinion is on a flight test, from 3000 feet, in an area of known fields, that if he can't organize himself enough to pull a checklist, he shouldn't be at the flight test. As for the examiner who marks 2's, change is occurring isn't it. All the way up the food chain. The instructor is learning too.

[BoostedNihilist]

Clearly you all have misunderstood my reply.

Good bad or indifferent, there is a requirement to pull out the checklist and check it to get a four.

We are not talking about the monolithic task of piloting an aircraft once you are licensed.

You are thinking about this in terms which are too broad. We are not discussing the merit of the requirement, we are discussing whether the requirement exists, and it does so I fail to see how your argument fits into this discussion at all.

I never one contended that the checklist should be the first thing to come out... but it should be the last.

I know MANY people who got twos because they didn't pull out the checklist after the memory check.. I also know a few who failed because they missed items and didn't pull out the checklist. If you want to give your students advice that will give them fail then keep towing your line.

Speaking of airline pilots, they have a QRH for most things because a forced approach for them entails much more; hence why you have two crews up front. One dude flying the plane, another dude doing the necessary checks. Or however the hell else the captain desires suitable to fit the situation.

And? You missed the point here, true or false, before an air canada pilot goes to fly he pulls out a checklist... true...

I agree with the fact that you NEED to follow a checklist. It's a part of good airmanship. When you walk into the plane, yes you start with the appropriate checklists and work through them until the end of the flight.

So then it would stand to reason that really bad airmanship is missing an item on a checklist because you didn't check it... right?

Whether it be a flight test item or not, are you going to pull a checklist if you have an engine failure right after take off?

No, you do this prior to TAKING OFF! It is covered in the EFATO brief... I believe I already addressed this point but again for the record...

Let's not forget, the flight test is a sampling of your ability to proficiently fly the airplane. While you're trying to meet the aim and procedural elements of the exercise, the examiner is evaluating you on the big picture as well.

And they recognize this... which is why it is not an automatic fail. I'm not arguing the merit, merely the fact that the requirement exists. If you miss pulling out the checklist you run the possibility of getting a 2... still a pass but who wants 2s? Personally, I want 4s.

They are not teaching you to pass a flight test, they're teaching you how to fly an airplane. These are important skills which will affect your flying for the rest of your life.

Potatoes potatos.

+1, Two crew is a totally different ballgame. The PF and PNF system ensures someone is always flying the airplane.

Running checklists solo is a part of flying the airplane as a private pilot. If you can't handle it your overall ability comes into question. Which vital information will come off the top under a truly stressful situation if you have already decided running checklists isn't important?

I would be very disappointed to see an examiner give a "2" to a candidate who properly controlled the aircraft as he/she performed a cause check from memory and then flew a safe approach such that the aircraft was well positioned to make a survivable landing, but did not pull out and read from a printed checklist. A for real forced approach is a potentially life or death manoever therefore being able to quickly do everything you need to do to maximise getting the engine going is extremely important and then if there is no restart then getting the aircraft to a suitable spot, in good order are the only two things that matter. The rest of the bumpf is firmly in the "nice to do catagory" and is completely time and situation dependant.

I would tend to agree however, we are not talking about real life, we are talking strictly about flight test requirements. Getting those 'nice to do' things done gets you a better mark. Since it has been established that the flight test is in place to sample all of your abilities as a pilot it would stand to reason that those who obtain a higher mark are better pilots. If you feel comfortable teaching your students that your personal requirements are more important than the mandated requirements... and the fact that you don't think that this is important it really brings into question your suitability to flight training.. imo. It makes me wonder what other fundamental items you would accept a two on simply because it washes with your training paradigm...

[Big Pistons Forever]

Boosted

My experience with examiners is most look first and foremost for a well planned approach flown smoothly and a safely. Second they look for the applicable emergency procedures to be to be applied in an accurate and timely manner and then when appropriate to the situation, backed up with the checklist, which is exactly what I said in my earlier posts and which is what I teach. If any part of the required emergency procedures are not correctly carried out than yes a "2" is the appropriate mark. But I stand by my comment that a forced appraoch exercise in which all the required checks were carried out and was well flown should not be scored a "2" only because the candidate did not read from the printed checklist.

The bigger problem is since most FTU's only have a small selection of fields on which to carry out forced approach training, there is a tendancy to train for the field not the forced approach exercise. Students quickly figures out that there is no requireemnt to pick a field you just go to the "approved" one and when you get there you are expected to turn final over the house with the red roof.

This certainly helps training to pass the flight test but IMO makes it more difficult to prepare students for a real world engine failure. That is why I try to give students exposure to a variety of situations. One especially good exercise IMO is to give a student a no notice engine failure on the dual cross country. I carry it through untill they have found a field and completed the cause check and have a plan for the forced approach. It is a great use of intensity because it drives home how disorientating a sudden unexpected failure can be and how in practice how important it is to be decisive in picking the field and have the essential checklist memory items burned into your brain so they come naturally when the pressure is on.

Finally I try pretty hard to get my point across with out personally attacking the poster. I request the same courtesy from you.