Dash 8 at Jazz

[CRJ-705]

hey guys ive got a couple of questions about flying the dash 8 for jazz and i hope to one day work for air canada jazz or just air canada.

anyway if your based out of YYZ on the dash 8 whats your schedule like? i know there are daily flights to place like YAM YXU YSB, and so on, so would you just be flying in ontario or how does it work?

also whats the average captains pay for jazz? can you make good money at jazz?

[TopperHarley]

So you wanna fly the dash 8 but your name is CRJ-705??

I fly the RJ in YYZ, so I don't have first hand experience on the d8. But their sched isn't all that different. Ive flipped through the bid packages which details the flights they do. Its similar to the RJ, you just average more legs in a day. The average day probably has 4 legs, the most Ive seen is 8. On reserve, you are scheduled 18 days per month, but you may or may not fly on all those days. If you're a block holder, you'll be blocked at 77-85hrs per month depending on how things are going, which would be about 16 days of flying.

There is variety in the flying too. Out of YYZ, the D8 does fly to the USA- detroit, cleveland, colombus, hartford, baltimore, boston, pittsburgh, richmond, off the top of my head. Even if you're YYZ based, you could see yourself flying east/west coast destinations too.

Captains top out around $125,000 I believe, most junior is $80,000+.

[BMR]

Even if you're YYZ based, you could see yourself flying east/west coast destinations too.

Only if your YYZ based do they let you venture across the country with the dash. Only time you'll ever see eastern stuff is if your on reserve. or the rare occasion where there actually are eastern pairings.

and yes 4 legs seems to be average for dash. Not uncommon to see average of 6 legs in Calgary. and good ol' vancouver has the standard 8 leg days.

[CRJ-705]

how long does it usually take to make it to captain? and for that much money how many hours would you be working a month?

[mattedfred]

currently around 8 years and the most junior captain would be YUL based

currently 77.5 flight credit hours per month including recurrent training

[CRJ-705]

so a daily day might be like yyz-yam around 4 times then the next day it might be yyz-yxu around 4 times? or in a day would you go yyz-yam-yyz-yxu-yyz (or something like that)? basically im asking is do you fly to the same city all day or do you mix it up?

[teacher]

All mixed up. Could be the same location, could be different ones, could be all domestic, all transborder or a mix of the 2.

I've seen YYZ-YQG-YYZ-YQG or YYZ-CMH-YYZ-BDL-YYZ or YYZ-PIT-YYZ-YSB-YYZ or the longest I've seen in YYZ was YYZ-YXU 3 times (6 legs) than a YTS turn, could be anything.

For multi day pairings just add your choice of location after the above single day pairings and string them togther for 2,3 or 4 days.

[CRJ-705]

80K for junior captain and topping out at 120K is pretty good money i think anyways. hows come so many people complain? or is that really hard to make at jazz?

[El Comat]

People complain mostly because the starting F/O wage is not something to be proud of. It's better than most (if not all) Dash 8 operators in Canada, but still not enough. However, you can almost always make more than advertised, as you get profit sharing once a year (I got over $900 for last year even though I was only here for 8 months, this year I hope to get well over $1000), Day-off call outs (~$3000 so far this year), Jazz Ensemble (kinda like profit sharing, $1125 so far this year) etc. On paper I should make $40,500 this year (1st 4 months at 36k/year, rest at 42k/year), but as of the end of October I had already grossed $41,209.74. If I don't do anymore day-off call outs, I'll make $48,000 this year. Another downside of Jazz is all the deductions we get hit with (benefits being the worst culprit, at ~$300/month for an FO under the family plan).

lol...It's kind of funny, but as kids we would always try to guess how much my Dad made, and to this day he has never told us (he was self-employed, no way to check). Here I am telling a bunch of strangers exactly how much I make (or don't make...lol).

Anyway, Jazz is a good company for the most part, and has the potential to be an amazing company if our contract gets hammered out to everyone's liking (or if we start a YSB base ).

EC

[KAG]

80K for junior captain and topping out at 120K is pretty good money i think anyways. hows come so many people complain? or is that really hard to make at jazz?

To make that kind of money you need to be a CPT. It takes 10+ years to get an upgrade. Then your bottom of the list again, so you have no life until you can hold a good block or senior reserve. There is a reason there are 16+ year FO's out west, some are happy to wait until they can not only upgrade but jump right into a good block.
Living in YYZ is pretty hard to do on 36K a year, and it takes many years to make anywhere near good money as a FO, and by good I mean just livable.
And your chances of jumping over to AC are not great (have been anyway, can't speak for current trends). So those are the reasons people (myself included) complained, and why a lot left and will leave.

There are a lot of pros too: The flying, machines, travel perks, pension, benefits - all good things, no complaints.
And if your low time, or lacked EFIS, FMS, heavy time, 705 experience it's a great place to get all that. But for a lot of junior pilots it's not a "career" job, It’s a great stepping stone.

[mattedfred]

It takes 10+ years to get an upgrade.

There is a reason there are 16+ year FO's out west, some are happy to wait until they can not only upgrade but jump right into a good block.

And your chances of jumping over to AC are not great (have been anyway, can't speak for current trends). So those are the reasons people (myself included) complained, and why a lot left and will leave.

But for a lot of junior pilots it's not a "career" job, It’s a great stepping stone.

it doesn't take 10 years to get an upgrade in the most junior base and it hasn't taken that long since i was hired which was well before KAG worked here

FO's in YVR with 16 years of service are not choosing to be senior FO's. you need close to that many years of service to hold the left seat in YVR

did you choose to get involved to help make ACJ a better place to work before you decided to leave?

ACJ and it's predecessors have always been a stepping stone for many. why would an association negotiate on behalf of those members that felt that way about ACJ? if you stick around and help to make ACJ a better place to work it will pay off.

complaining without offering to help resolve the issue or quitting doesn't help solve the problem

i'll admit that you are better off where you are now and that we are better off without you but it didn't have to be that way

[PC12flyer]

At today's pace it will take at least 8 years to get to the left seat in YYZ on the Dash. 8 Year FO pay at min 75 credits is a joke. $50940. Granted no one is really ever blocked right to 75 credits, but currently YYZ based RJ pilots are running low block months 77.5avg. That means that an FO better have a sugar mama or not have kids, mortgage or debts to afford living in or near Toronto.

Mattedfred your comment irks me, "why would an association negotiate on behalf of those members that felt that way about ACJ?" It shows contempt for the junior members of the union. Who care's what a person's motivation is for joining Jazz, I think the association should negotiate for the betterment of ALL members. Being selective only breeds individualism and breaks up our solidarity.

Sadly it's mainly the most junior of us who are abandoning Jazz for Tealer pastures. Why is that, many reasons probably but I think the main reason is that you can't afford to live in any of our bases at F.O payscale. Due to the previous contract's payscales Jazz is forcing guys to use it as a stepping stone and not stick around. Who knows maybe KAG would have stuck around if the union had negotiated a liveable wage for the most junior guys. If we had a decent pay scale it probably would force many who left for financial reasons to think twice about leaving such a great company. Jazz has alot of great perks, thanks mostly to ALPA's efforts, and overall it's a great place to work and I plan on staying but I must admit its biggest detractor is FO pay.

[mattedfred]

At today's pace it will take at least 8 years to get to the left seat in YYZ on the Dash.

Mattedfred your comment irks me, "why would an association negotiate on behalf of those members that felt that way about ACJ?" It shows contempt for the junior members of the union. Who care's what a person's motivation is for joining Jazz, I think the association should negotiate for the betterment of ALL members. Being selective only breeds individualism and breaks up our solidarity.

Sadly it's mainly the most junior of us who are abandoning Jazz for Tealer pastures. Why is that. Due to the previous contract's payscales Jazz is forcing guys to use it as a stepping stone and not stick around. Who knows maybe KAG would have stuck around if the union had negotiated a liveable wage for the most junior guys. If we had a decent pay scale it probably would force many who left for financial reasons to think twice about leaving such a great company. Jazz has alot of great perks, thanks mostly to ALPA's efforts, and overall it's a great place to work and I plan on staying but I must admit its biggest detractor is FO pay.

it takes over 9 years to hold the left seat on the DH8 in YYZ

not every junior member has one foot out the door. don't put words in my mouth.

i think an association should attempt to negotiate a CBA that benefits the majority of the membership. this doesn't mean that ALL will benefit. being part of an association means being part of a group. one shouldn't look at how the results of a newly ratified CBA affects them personally. one should consider how it will affect them in the future.

i suspect that the more junior members leave because they have less to lose i.e. years of service, pay rate, vacation etc. do you really think that even those at the top pay scale are satisfied with what they get paid? they stick around though because they have too much to lose and not enough time to make it back.

your comment suggest that the union decides what the pay rates are? the union negotiates for the betterment of the majority and negotiates the best CBA they can get at that time. shouldn't the question be why didn't the company agree to better rates for junior members instead of watching them walk out the door?

i earned $5 per hour right seat on an SW2 in 95' and my wife was in university and didn't work. i knew the pay when i interviewed for the position and accepted the offer of employment. i chose to stay in order to gain experience and left for greener pastures but i never complained about the pay as i knew the score when i signed up.

my point is that if you don't like it leave for greener pastures but if you like it then work with the association to make improvements. either way the company will eventually get the point. doing otherwise isn't constructive.

[whipline]

Is the pay scale accurate on Airline pilot central? If so to make 125,000 the most senior Captain would have to work 100 hrs a month. As for FO's, how do you live off of 35,000 a year with 300 a month deducted from your after tax pay? Is there any FO's on welfare to top up their pay? I wouldn't blame anyone for leaving.

[KAG]

Matted, I just spoke with a newer hire at WJ who had 9 years at Jazz and was still an FO in YYZ. My room mate was the second most junior RJ skipper and had 10+ years in, and was worried about losing his seat, he too left. It may take less time to get an upgrade, but you may also be a reserve pilot for a long time as more senior guys jump into the left seat when they can hold a block.

As for you being better off without me, you’re right. When I left, I detailed exactly why I decided to leave in my letter of resignation, so as to point out that they are losing people needlessly. Maybe if/when enough people leave, the message will be heard.

I'm not knocking Jazz, I'm just pointing out that there is more to planning a career then just money. Sadly, it's just not the job it once was before the merger.

[Samolin]

I am in my third year as an FO at Jazz on the RJ...

The facts...

I have a wife (still in School), so no extra income!
I have a young son (an infant), so more extenses!
I have a mortage of $200,000

Whats left?? after all the deductions from the paycheck.. about $200 for our entertainment..
Things that I consider extras that we get to spend on our selfs (trips, liesure spending and all):
Jazz Ensonbole (probably got the spelling wrong - but basically a performace bonus)... every quater
Overtime.... almost every month
Yearly tax credit!

Even though we are not saving anything right now... we are enjoying life as much as we can considering the busy schedule that we have. We do have to watch our spending but my point is.... IT CAN BE DONE!
just stay away from the alcohole and keep yourself busy! Just my 2cent Good Luck everyone!

[mattedfred]

i commend you for efforts samolin

most of the FO's i fly with have nicer cars and shoes than i do as well as iphones, laptops and ipods

it's hard to listen to them complain about the wages

i agree the wage sucks but there is much we can do to try and fix it

[KAG]

i commend you for efforts samolin

most of the FO's i fly with have nicer cars and shoes than i do as well as iphones, laptops and ipods

it's hard to listen to them complain about the wages

i agree the wage sucks but there is much we can do to try and fix it

Credit is an evil thing when used frivolously.
That or they married rich

[Flaps 1]

I am able to afford working at Jazz because my wife and I both provide. We both worked extremely hard over the years to get our mortgage paid down and get to where we are today. We sacrificed a lot. We now live very comfortably. Should I feel guilty about that? Should I be worried about what my colleagues will say every time I buy a new laptop, purchase a new car, or show up at work with a new pair of shoes on? It's not how much money you make, it's how you manage what you make.

[mattedfred]

no you shouldn't but your likely not the one complaining about the wages either

[teacher]

Dual income is great but a more fair wage is better

[CRJ-705]

any dash 8 pilots wanna share some of the pairings you get?

[hithere]

While Mr. CRJ-705 may be totally legit and asking all these questions out of genuine interest,
I would caution anyone providing him/her with a copy of their pairing. I think he has enough information now between the AC, Westjet, and now Jazz forums to figure out what he's/she's going to do with his/her life

[look on your back]

my godness....
people talking about capt upgrade when they do WDO's !!! what the hell !!!!
Just look on the last 3 years Bid !!! young FO's bumped out of base, young capt bumped out of their seat or out of base.... isn't enough ?? Young FO's....just do as you do... continue on doing WDO's and you'll never going up on seniority either never get a capt seat !!!! aalloooo !!! Young capt doing WDO's will never have a good shedule because the compagny knows they'll have lost of credit's reserve (as WDO's) to make the compagny working....
The compagny will never think of your weel beiing but they want aircraft's flying !!!! So as it is now... lost of WDO's done.... makes no hiring !!!! no seniority progression..... and everyone's complaining !!!
well done guys... this is just talk for talking !!! but during that time, nothing's moving....and compagny's laughing

See you on line !

[qwert]

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