Actual IMC Log

[ywgflyboy]

So this appears to be a grey area to everyone I talk to. When does a pilot log actual IMC time? I have read on here previous someone counting all IFR flight plans as IMC (surely TC would catch on to that), but lets say I am flying along and climb through a cloud layer and am cruising lets say 3000ft above. Technically I am not in IMC anymore, because if I hold a CPL or IFR I am VFR OTT endorsed. "Real" IMC time to me(the way I assume) includes only the 5 minutes or so I would have spent climbing through the cloud?

Anyone care to weigh in.

[airbournesailor]

I am curious of the proper way to log IMC as well. I've been told to only log actual IMC time and I've been told to log all Filed IFR time and TC will credit you with a percentage of this for IMC. Anyone know for sure the proper way?

[TopperHarley]

This thread seems to pop up every week.

Log IMC if you are filed IFR and are in IMC conditions. Easy as 3.14.

[Ralliart]

Just use some common sense.

I log "actual IMC" when I am actually flying in instrument meteorological conditions. How hard is that?

On the Transport Canada website, a description of IMC is given:

instrument meteorological conditions

(1) Canada: Meteorological conditions less than the minima specified in Subpart 602 of the Canadian Aviation Regulations (CARs) for visual meteorological conditions (VMC), expressed in terms of visibility and distance from cloud.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/s ... conditions

No need to come up with a bunch of obscure situations either (flying above an overcast layer on a moonless night, flying over water under a layer etc blah blah blah. IMC is IMC, you either are, or are not.

If you are flying in IMC conditions, then log actual IMC.

Very few people care anyways. Any good CP or interviewer will be able to distiguish your experience from more ways than just a column in your logbook.

[ywgflyboy]

This thread seems to pop up every week.

Log IMC if you are filed IFR and are in IMC conditions. Easy as 3.14.

Apparently it isn't when instructors can not pass that info on. My instructor suggested to just subtract .3 from the total flight time on IFR flight plan for take off and taxi time

[Ralliart]

Maybe it's time to find another instructor.

[flyinhigh]

If you are in cloud, and no forward vis. You are IMC. If you are flying IFR and are 10000 above the cloud layer, you have a horizon visible you are the farthest thing from IMC.

When you go apply for a job down the line, CP's will ask how much imc you got. They want to know actual time. Not the time you spent logging it over the top cause you filed that way.

cheers

[Bushav8er]

Had this discussion in another forum too - here is my answer:

The bottom line is
'How does one log 'IMC (actual)' in their log book in the absence of a definite CARs XYZ reference?'
You use TC's definition of 'IMC' which is:

CARs 101 - - Interpretation: "IMC" or "instrument meteorological conditions" - means meteorological conditions less than the minima specified in Division VI of Subpart 2 of Part VI for visual meteorological conditions, expressed in terms of visibility and distance from cloud;

That means weather less then the required visibility and distance from cloud for VFR in controlled or uncontrolled airspace is IMC. Which in itself means that you don't have to be physically 'in cloud' to be legally found to be 'in cloud'.

[this incidentally is the same argument TC has uses for 'over' the highest obstacle under 'Minimum Altitudes and Distances' 602.14(2). If you are nearer than 2000' horizontally you are 'legally' considered to be 'over' the obstacle (or rather illegally over it)]

When you are out flying a full day, with many legs, it is impractical to log each time you fly through cloud so people come up with a 'system', some liberal, some conservative. People will log as they see fit, right or wrong. As you said "there are a lot of pilots who don’t know the rule and log the entire flight as actual IMC." I know the same pilots.

Personally I'm on the conservative side.

A Pilots Log Book is supposed to record their flying experience. It could better do this, in my opinion, if the "Instrument" columns had 'IFR' (flight rules)' instead of 'IMC' because, as earlier stated, if you are on instruments be it in cloud or under the hood, day, night or solid cloud doesn't matter. The value is in the fact that you were following the IF rules and procedures. (The other remaining 'Instrument' columns are fine)

[FlaplessDork]

That means weather less then the required visibility and distance from cloud for VFR in controlled or uncontrolled airspace is IMC. Which in itself means that you don't have to be physically 'in cloud' to be legally found to be 'in cloud'.

+1

I would expand this to flying above an OVC or BKN layer. VMC is defined as visual reference to the surface, if you're above the ceiling you are no longer able to visually navigate via the surface and therefore IMC.

[Ralliart]

Flaplessdork,

With all due respect, VMC is not defined as visual reference to the surface.

You are likely thinking VFR, which requires visual reference to the surface.

When you fly VFR-OTT, you most likely don't have visual reference to the surface, yet you are in visual meteorological conditions.

You can fly without visual reference to the surface as VFR-OTT or IFR. Doing so however, does not automatically mean you are flying in IMC.

[ywgflyboy]

This is all what I assumed, but when you hear otherwise it raises the question. Thanks guys.

[FlaplessDork]

Flaplessdork,

With all due respect, VMC is not defined as visual reference to the surface.

You are likely thinking VFR, which requires visual reference to the surface.

When you fly VFR-OTT, you most likely don't have visual reference to the surface, yet you are in visual meteorological conditions.

You can fly without visual reference to the surface as VFR-OTT or IFR. Doing so however, does not automatically mean you are flying in IMC.

You're right, I was wrong

[flyinhigh]

Had this discussion in another forum too - here is my answer:

The bottom line is
'How does one log 'IMC (actual)' in their log book in the absence of a definite CARs XYZ reference?'
You use TC's definition of 'IMC' which is:

CARs 101 - - Interpretation: "IMC" or "instrument meteorological conditions" - means meteorological conditions less than the minima specified in Division VI of Subpart 2 of Part VI for visual meteorological conditions, expressed in terms of visibility and distance from cloud;

That means weather less then the required visibility and distance from cloud for VFR in controlled or uncontrolled airspace is IMC. Which in itself means that you don't have to be physically 'in cloud' to be legally found to be 'in cloud'.

[this incidentally is the same argument TC has uses for 'over' the highest obstacle under 'Minimum Altitudes and Distances' 602.14(2). If you are nearer than 2000' horizontally you are 'legally' considered to be 'over' the obstacle (or rather illegally over it)]

When you are out flying a full day, with many legs, it is impractical to log each time you fly through cloud so people come up with a 'system', some liberal, some conservative. People will log as they see fit, right or wrong. As you said "there are a lot of pilots who don’t know the rule and log the entire flight as actual IMC." I know the same pilots.

Personally I'm on the conservative side.

A Pilots Log Book is supposed to record their flying experience. It could better do this, in my opinion, if the "Instrument" columns had 'IFR' (flight rules)' instead of 'IMC' because, as earlier stated, if you are on instruments be it in cloud or under the hood, day, night or solid cloud doesn't matter. The value is in the fact that you were following the IF rules and procedures. (The other remaining 'Instrument' columns are fine)

This is correct, Now just for the sake of arugment though.

Float drivers, we've all been caught if you have any amount of float time doing commercial.

Your flying a beaver at 100 in 1/2 mile vis following a river, you are now under what TC calls ifr/imc rules does that mean you are IFR. Not in my book.

When it comes down to it, common sense shall prevail.

Discuss..

[Tim]

my suggestion would be call your local TC office to see what they say. this thread does pop up often, and it boils down to this: TC doesn't actually say in the CARs. just like with what is or isn't x-c time. everyone has an opinion, including the guys signing your license off. those people are the only ones that count though, so ask them.

the way i do it though is in cloud only.

[Ralliart]

Your flying a beaver at 100 in 1/2 mile vis following a river, you are now under what TC calls ifr/imc rules does that mean you are IFR. Not in my book.

You're never IFR when you are down low scudrunning through the hills or river valleys on a VFR flight. Even if you enter into solid cloud, you're not IFR. You are in IMC as a VFR pilot breaking the rules and risking lives. But hey, theoretically you can log that all you want as IMC! That's your perogative.

Ya ya I know, most everyone has done it at some point in their career (including me) but there is a distinct difference between the rules of flying (IFR / VFR) and the weather conditions we fly in (IMC / VMC).

[Bushav8er]

Float drivers, we've all been caught if you have any amount of float time doing commercial.

Your flying a beaver at 100 in 1/2 mile vis following a river, you are now under what TC calls ifr/imc rules does that mean you are IFR. Not in my book.

When it comes down to it, common sense shall prevail.

Discuss..

Sorry but nothing to discuss.

1) You are not IFR rated or equipped,
2) You are below VFR,

Therefore you are in violation of the Regulations and subject to charges/penalties.

Now will you get caught? That's another matter...

[BingBong]

If you are in cloud, and no forward vis. You are IMC. If you are flying IFR and are 10000 above the cloud layer, you have a horizon visible you are the farthest thing from IMC.

When you go apply for a job down the line, CP's will ask how much imc you got. They want to know actual time. Not the time you spent logging it over the top cause you filed that way.

cheers

Just to make something understood.....a cloud layer is not a Horizon...the ground is. Clouds are seldom uniform in plane (or axis)...even though it may seem that they are from above.

[Pugster]

To me it's quite simple.

If you can fly the aircraft by looking out the window, you're not IMC.

If you have no horizon to fly with and need to be on the dials, you're IMC.

I would say that for your first chunk of IMC (ATPL requirements) , log it as conservatively as you can. Once you start flying IFR exclusively, log it any way you want...or not at all. As a student it's pretty ridiculous to suggest that you should be logging all of your air time as IMC.

[Bushav8er]

leafy_13 started to say it, and I fail to understand why so many people are having 'trouble' with the IFR/VFR stuff - instruction?

To be really clear:

IFR - instrument flight RULES

VFR - visual flight RULES

IMC - instrument meteorological CONDITIONS

VMC - visual meteorological CONDITIONS

IMC "means meteorological conditions less than the minima specified in Division VI of Subpart 2 of Part VI for visual meteorological conditions, expressed in terms of visibility and distance from cloud;" Which also means you could have clear skies but if vis at 2.5 mi than it is by definition (and what the Regulators will charge under, although not likely) in IMC.

IF you are in IMC, you MUST be IFR Rated, and aircraft equipped, and can log it as 'actual' - period.

It doesn't matter a hill of beans what people think or believe or even get away with; when the TC Inspector is there on the dock or ramp and witnesses it, what matters is the REGs and they have a tumble down effect. That means that one violation can lead to another and even make the airworthiness and insurance invalid! The buck stops at PIC. (Silly is some aspects I grant you, that paper alone can make the aircraft un-airworthy but thems the rules)

[ywgflyboy]

I do not understand how people think it is safe to fly in IMC when they are not IFR checked, and filed. I only have 220 hours and 8 hours of real IMC and would never dream of doing such stupid shit. I do not need 10,000 hours to figure that one out! Plus I love flying to much to loose my privilege to.

[sarg]

Now for a little different thought on the subject. Think how it looks on a resume:

Joe Pilot

TT 2,000 HRS
Multi 1,500 HRS MPIC 1,000HRS
IMC 1,500 HRS

The first thing I thought when looking for a guy seeing a resume like this was bulls**t. It leads to crediablity issues right away, the end result, the resume hit the trash can.

[Ralliart]

Of course there are exceptions, but I wouldn't be keen on any resume where IMC accounts for much more than 10% of the total time.

[sarg]

Of course there are exceptions, but I wouldn't be keen on any resume where IMC accounts for much more than 10% of the total time.

Pretty much my rule too.

[SAR_YQQ]

Never really had the chance to see a civi log-book, but don't you guys have a couple of columns that break it down into Simulated IFR and Actual IFR?

I log Actual for every 6 minute segment that I spend inside a cloud. I log the rest as Simulated (minus the 0.2 for start, taxi and takeoff).

[Lurch]

Of course there are exceptions, but I wouldn't be keen on any resume where IMC accounts for much more than 10% of the total time.

Pretty much my rule too.

I was just having this conversation yesterday

Building IMC takes a long time, Looking back most of my flights that I encounted cloud there was only 0.2 to 0.3 of IMC. I think the longest I have ever spent in cloud was out of Port Hardy and lasted 2 hours. I was so happy to see the sun again, it is very boring when all you can see is white.

If you can't figure out how to log IMC what else are you having touble figuring out? I wouldn't hire you.

Lurch