Going rate for an annual

[LousyFisherman]

The road to hell is paved with people who tried to apply their non-aviation business practices in aviation.

Funny, Given the whining from pilots about jobs and pay, and the whining from AMEs about customers, I thought the aviation BUSINESS was hell

Ruddersup, I am not questioning the facts of how business is run I am questioning why it is run that way.

Auto repair labour rates have always been higher than aviation and this is out of line.

Please see above, I pay $90/hour for an AME and $75/hour for a mechanic. I know I can find another AME for the same rate, I just don't know how good he is. I know I can find lots of mechanics at $75. I have no idea if I can find an AME at $75/hour and if I could I probably question why he/she was so cheap.

Now stick about $25/hr on top of our present rate and then I would gladly work on discounting parts.

$25/hour seems a little much, how much are you marking up parts?
Aside from the amount, why can't you boost your rates and advertize parts at cost? Again what do you do if the job does not require parts?
Why can't you bill for all your hours, including research into part numbers, ADs and STCs? These are the things of value you bring to the table, they are worth something,

Have customers that want an oil change and actually bring in oil and filter.

Why not if you are charging a proper rate?
As I mentioned, an oil change is not part of our annual, we are not interested in paying $45 or $90 on top of parts that are 10% more than what we pay. And he seems to like it that way, I gather oil changes are rather boring I did mention that we have a very good relationship with our AME, didn't I.

We've let them develop this mentality, why?

And that is the exact same question I am asking.
Even further, why do you and your competitors tolerate ***holes as customers, why not tell them to go elsewhere? From my very limited experience I have found that there are a limited number of quality AMEs that do private GA work. In many small towns in Alberta they often have a monopoly. In Calgary we went through 3 different AMEs before we found a shop that we liked and that understood how we wanted the plane maintained, the hourly rate was irrelevant. Is your market so oversupplied with AMEs that you have to accept losers as customers to survive?

One of the main topics of conversation in my circle of pilots is identifying quality AMEs. Price is not an issue until low quality work is performed, at which point it is an added complaint not the primary one. There are a lot of owners like us who take very good care of their baby. Maybe not all, but a lot. They are the ones you want as customers and most of them, at least in my circle want transparent pricing.

LF

[MrWings]

Where the cost starts to go up and I'm not sure if all owners are aware of, but the time it takes to look up part numbers, call for pricing and ordering, receiving the parts, certifying them, updating the maintenance library, remaining compliant with the latest CAR revisions, manufacturers bulletins and every other item that is required to keep the certificate hanging on the wall, all add time to completing the inspection properly.

What % of the annual does this portion take up?

Does this have to be done by an AME or can a clerical staff person do this?

Do you have any automated system to help you with this?

Do you want a system to streamline this part of the process? Or is this easy money that you don't want to lose?

I am interested in how this process can be improved if someone is interested in improving it.

[iflyforpie]

WE MARK UP PARTS BECAUSE IT IS ANOTHER WAY TO MAKE MONEY! THAT IS WHAT BUSINESSES IN A FREE MARKET SOCIETY DO! IN THE CASE OF PARTS, WE ARE RECOVERING SOME OF THE TIME SPENT RESEARCHING THE PART BY USING THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN OUR BETTER RATE AND THE PRICE YOU WOULD GET IF YOU PHONED UP YOURSELF.

THE TIM HORTONS DOWN THE STREET MAKES FAR MORE MONEY THAN THE AVERAGE SHOP WORKING ON PRIVATE AIRCRAFT, YET NOBODY COMPLAINS ABOUT $2 FOR A DOUBLE DOUBLE WHEN YOU COULD HAVE THE SAME THING FOR 10 CENTS. CELL PHONE COMPANIES CHARGE YOU A 'SYSTEM ACCESS' FEE AND THEN AN 'ADMINISTRATION' FEE WHICH SERVES NO PURPOSE OTHER THAN TO EXTRACT MONEY FROM YOUR WALLET.

THE WONDERFUL THING IS, YOU HAVE A CHOICE WHETHER TO USE OUR SERVICES OR NOT. IF YOU THINK AN AMO IS A LICENSE TO PRINT MONEY, YOU ARE TERRIBLY MISTAKEN...

CLERICAL STAFF? YEAH, YOU WANT TO COME AND WORK AT MY SHOP FOR MINIMUM WAGE TWICE A MONTH FOR ORDERING PARTS? MOST SHOPS CANNOT SUPPORT A RECEPTIONIST/CLERK ON TOP OF AMES.

AN ANNUAL COSTS WHAT IT COSTS! YOU PISS US OFF, YOU AREN'T GOING TO BE ABLE TO GET YOUR PLANE FIXED EXCEPT AT A LARGE AMO WHO WILL EITHER CHARGE YOU A FORTUNE OR TELL YOU TO GET THE OUT!

AMES DOING $500 ANNUALS ARE LIKE PILOTS WORKING FOR FREE...

IF YOU DON'T WANT TO PAY FOR AN ANNUAL, STAMP Xs INTO YOUR DATA PLATE OR GET A HOMEBUILT!

[/rant]

[niss]

Here you go IFP:


Drink this down.....atta boy!

I'll get your blankie and teddy.

[MrWings]

I am interested in how this process can be improved if someone is interested in improving it.

AN ANNUAL COSTS WHAT IT COSTS! YOU PISS US OFF, YOU AREN'T GOING TO BE ABLE TO GET YOUR PLANE FIXED EXCEPT AT A LARGE AMO WHO WILL EITHER CHARGE YOU A FORTUNE OR TELL YOU TO GET THE OUT!

I take it you're not interested.

[iflyforpie]

Thanks niss, I needed that.

Mr. Wings, I wasn't directing that all at you, just the situation in general and cheapskate owners who have to question every one of our business practices when they will go and pay whatever is on the bottom line for a cell phone, vehicle repair, flat screen TV, or even aircraft insurance.

The problem with most small AMOs is they are very low volume. So as a result there aren't a ton of transactions in a year with which to make profit. Also, almost everything is done with pen and paper, so it often isn't worth the hassle to computerize everything. Then there is the fact that TC requires us to have paper for practically everything anyways.

Online part sourcers like Partsbase would streamline the process of locating parts, but often aren't worth the cost.

So when I order a part...

I look up the part in the parts book, verifying the applicability of the part to the aircraft. Call it ten minutes.

I phone three or four different places to get comparisons on price and availability. Most owners wouldn't even know where to begin other than Aircraft Spruce, and most likely they would get an uncertified part. Call this about half an hour. Sometimes it can be over a whole day of going back and forth. Bear in mind that we know when to order parts if there is a cutoff date for the weekly order, we more easily arrange customs brokering, and we generally know the easiest and cheapest way to ship the part. Assign a PO# to the part from the batch book so we can have traceability.

The part arrives. Open the box and check the packing list vs the contents in the box. You wouldn't believe how many times they don't match. Assign the PO# to the parts and fill out the part type, number, vendor, date, aircraft, and price in the batch book. Check the certification and file. Transfer the part number and price over to the work order and write it in the release as well. Probably another half-hour.

I do have a computerized parts database that I made myself on my own time that somewhat speeds the process of finding a part, but now I have to double enter the parts (I typically update the database only about five times a year) and the paper is still required.

Then there is all the small consumables which may only cost pennies a piece, but still need to be accounted for in some way other than spending hours billing for each separately. An AN bolt may cost $1.50, but by the time I write the bill for it, it will cost $5.

Surely all of that is worth paying practically the same price for the part you would anyways. Correct, prompt, traceable, and a few things thrown in.



The other thing to consider is how parts and labour have to be broken down for taxation purposes. This is why we just don't bump up the labour costs to cover other things. All the columns need to be accounted for properly.

[office_supply]

I know that a lot of the AvCanada users can easily start a storm but I had my share in starting this one so I'll add this:

My aircraft isnt a Honda Civic (read: Cessna 172), I cant get parts around every corner. In fact, generally parts only come from one source. So that I order a part or my AME does, it'll come from the same source, at the same cost (either that or the company charges my AME more for the part considering the huge markup I get)

I have the same parts and maintenance manuals as my AME does too, and I dont mind looking up parts numbers and doing ordering, I even do it for free and dont charge my AME for that

On the other note....:

THE TIM HORTONS DOWN THE STREET MAKES FAR MORE MONEY THAN THE AVERAGE SHOP WORKING ON PRIVATE AIRCRAFT, YET NOBODY COMPLAINS ABOUT $2 FOR A DOUBLE DOUBLE WHEN YOU COULD HAVE THE SAME THING FOR 10 CENTS. CELL PHONE COMPANIES CHARGE YOU A 'SYSTEM ACCESS' FEE AND THEN AN 'ADMINISTRATION' FEE WHICH SERVES NO PURPOSE OTHER THAN TO EXTRACT MONEY FROM YOUR WALLET.

I've never had the ... experience ... of having a double double (or any other form of coffee), and I suppose having worked at Tims for nearly three years could be a reason why. As for the cellphone, you're damn right it sucks paying those extra fees. Unfortunately its more beneficial to ride the contract out than it is to cancel it.. (so long as I dont loose my phone again and have to renew)

[MrWings]

I understand, Mr. Pie.

I feel your frustration. I sense a lot of time is being spent away from aircraft doing all of those other paperwork issues - through no fault of your own. And I recognize the need for you to be compensated for your time.

[iflyforpie]

My aircraft isnt a Honda Civic (read: Cessna 172), I cant get parts around every corner. In fact, generally parts only come from one source. So that I order a part or my AME does, it'll come from the same source, at the same cost (either that or the company charges my AME more for the part considering the huge markup I get)

I have the same parts and maintenance manuals as my AME does too, and I dont mind looking up parts numbers and doing ordering, I even do it for free and dont charge my AME for that

You still aren't getting it.

Since I am buying parts to maintain about two dozen aircraft at my shop, I get two things. First, an industry rate and second, a lower rate for high volume. The same thing with Lordco or Napa for auto parts. This can be between 30-50% off the 'list' price of the part.

If you, joe schmo private pilot phone one of these places, you might get 10% or maybe 15% off list if you want to haggle and there is someone on the other end who feels like you are someone worth giving a bit of a deal to (some of these people are also sick of cheapskate aircraft owners as well).

So all in all, you haven't saved yourself all that much. 30-40% of the price isn't really markup at all and we are actually supposed to sell them at list rather than 'our' rate as part of the agreement with the vendor. Just like the difference between 'wholesale' and 'retail'.



You'd think I was talking about quantum physics or something.

And there are several places, not just one or two, to get parts. And if you come up against a brick wall when you can't find steel rivets for the flap bearing blocks in a Tri-Pacer (my last parts finding challenge), you come to me whining to fix it...

After seeing the prices for parts over the years, we AMEs get a feel for what things should cost. Most of us want to keep aviation as affordable as we can for the private guy.

[AEROBAT]

As I mentioned, an oil change is not part of our annual, we are not interested in paying $45 or $90 on top of parts that are 10% more than what we pay. And he seems to like it that way, I gather oil changes are rather boring I did mention that we have a very good relationship with our AME, didn't I.



LF

Hello LF,

I don't know what you are flying but if your engine is a Lycoming how does he do an annual without pulling the suction screen? If you pull the screen you have to drain the oil on a flat four Lyc..

I pull both screens every oil change but then again I am not an AME so probably it isn't required by Transport. If I had a filter I would be cutting it open and unfolding the element to check for metal as well.

[KISS_MY_TCAS]

As I mentioned, an oil change is not part of our annual, we are not interested in paying $45 or $90 on top of parts that are 10% more than what we pay. And he seems to like it that way, I gather oil changes are rather boring I did mention that we have a very good relationship with our AME, didn't I.



LF

Hello LF,

I don't know what you are flying but if your engine is a Lycoming how does he do an annual without pulling the suction screen? If you pull the screen you have to drain the oil on a flat four Lyc..

I pull both screens every oil change but then again I am not an AME so probably it isn't required by Transport. If I had a filter I would be cutting it open and unfolding the element to check for metal as well.

CAR 625 app. B Part I section 4 subsection d. states " Screens and sump drain plugs - check for metal particles or foreign matter". My interpretation is BOTH fuel and oil screens in the engine/nacelle, so without cutting open a filter or examining the screen (depending on engine type) AND draining your oil, I do not meet the annual requirement. Not a fun job, but a necessary one. How anyone sweet talks thier AME into NOT dropping the oil and filter on an annual is beyond me. Does he also not pull the spark plugs because the mag drop is good?

[Bullet Remington]

As I mentioned, an oil change is not part of our annual, we are not interested in paying $45 or $90 on top of parts that are 10% more than what we pay. And he seems to like it that way, I gather oil changes are rather boring I did mention that we have a very good relationship with our AME, didn't I.



LF

Hello LF,

How anyone sweet talks thier AME into NOT dropping the oil and filter on an annual is beyond me. Does he also not pull the spark plugs because the mag drop is good?

Herein lies the confusion agonst US engineers. There wa a time where the engineer was responsible for ensuring the aurcraft wa in compliance with the E & I Manual as well as the CARS when thery initially were issued. Same for the ADs.

Now a days Transport has removed the responsibility for the serviceability FROM the engineer and TO the pilot. The PILOT is responsible for ensuring the aircraft is serviceable BEFORE he takes it flying. The owner and/or operator is responsible for compliance with the AD's. The OWNER is responsible for ensuring ensuringthe log books are up dated IAW with Cars. NOT the engineer.

What that means is; IF an owner bring an aircraft to me and says, don't bother checkingthe oil filter or changing the oil, No problem! He is the OWNER and is responsible for te aircraft serviceability, not me! I do exactly as I'm instructed by the owner. Don't want the spark plugs cleans and checked, I don't do it, don't want a gear swing or a compass swing done, again, no problem!

Again, an engineer simply does as any garage / service provider does, and that is do what the customer wants and only that! Having said that, what the engineer /mechanic has to do, and in the case of the aircraft what I do is; I record everything inthe Journey Log. if the owner tells me NOT To change the oil and filter, I put that in the Journey Log. I.E. : "Oil and oil filter NOT removed, changed nor checked at the direction oif the aircraft owner" I do the same with everything else the owner instructs me NOT to do. Everything that I do complete is recorded and the data used to do the maintenance is recorded in the journey log as well. When I 'm finished, I photocopy the Log book entries and get the owner to sign and date the photo cpoy. If they don't PAhy and sign the photo copy, I keep the books AND the aircraft and let them take me to court. That's happened twice. Both times I was warded the judgements and the owner had to pay everything including MY court costs!

I charge $50.00 an hour, i got outa the AMO business and I free lance now. IF I have to order parts, I add 25% mark up AND I add $75.00 an hour to the invoice over and above what i charge for the annual. SO if I have to go get parts say from Springbank to Leavens in Calgary, its %75.00 an hour. That pays for my hourly costs and for the wear and tear and fuel costs on my vehuicle. As a Free lance maintenance engineer, i don't lose money. As an AMO owner, I damned near lost my shirt, before i managed to dump it on a oilot who thought he could run it better then I could!

I have an excellent customer base none of which argue with me over the invoice nor my costs. And I get to fly their aircraft! Life is good.

[Bullet Remington]

As for arguing with the owner over the invoice and what is to be done, don't bother wasting your time. IF they want to order the parts, let em. Parts come with no certs? Don't put them on! Aircraft dismanteled and parts and/or aircraft taking up space? Charge for it! They don't want to pay, No problem, they don't get the aircraft OR parts that you have been working around to accomodate them.

See y''all have to understand, THEY are PILOTS, and we are but lowly engineers. What the fugg do we know?? We can't tell them anything without them ( most of them) being argumentative and cheap. So the only thing we can do leaglly and to ensure we are paid, is to keep what they own and have them either pay us willingly, OR forceably through the courts. And the court thing is a piece of cake. Most of the Bully owner are counting on engineers being afraid of the court thing and the owners are HOPING we succumb to the pressure!

Don't wate your time worrying about them. Firstly, do some checking before you accept new customer/s, Secondly, be aware of what you are getting into and make your position extremely clear. For example, IF you want to get paid as soon as the work is completed, make that clear. IF they don't pay, you now own an aircraft! I held on to a helicopter for over a year, was threaten with law suits, losing the house and everything I own etc, etc. I still have everything I own, the owner now has his helicopter back and it cost him including my court costs, mental anguish, disruption of martital accord, stress and strain close to 1/4 of a million for a bill UNDER $10 k!!


We're not dealing with the sharpest knife in the drawer folks. Stand up for yourself, don't waste your time trying to educated owners. it's a waste of time and energy!!

[LousyFisherman]

You know what people, I just realized I am one of those cheapo customers you've been complaining about. I'm willing to pay $90/hour for EVERY hour you spend on my stuff and you want that AND the privilege of gouging me on parts. You know what, go ahead, it's your business, I'll pay it, probably won't even say a word to you, but I won't be back, ever. And I will have a lot to say to my fellow pilots.

IFP. accounting wise, the ledger only matters for sales tax and by hiding your labour in the parts you are making me pay PST on your labour. Heck it's your customers money, why should you care about an unnecessary 8% extra that he or she legally does not have to pay.

Regarding "sweet talk" my AME, I find that offensive. The only sweet talking I do is "We need our annual done next month, and we really only want to lose it for a week. Can you fit us in? please, pretty please. We do not instruct our AME, other than "Please do the annual and here is a list of additional things that need fixing".

Regarding the oil, the engine is a Continental 0-200-A, I have no idea what the AME's obligations are to meet the regs regarding an annual, that's his job. Of course. this year tribology reports from the last 3 oil changes along with the oil filter from the last change 10 hours ago were sent with the plane. Maybe he takes a sample for analysis also, I don't know, don't really care. I do know our 50 hour change schedule does not reset after an annual and we do not get billed for a filter or oil.

I charge $50.00 an hour, i got outa the AMO business and I free lance now. IF I have to order parts, I add 25% mark up AND I add $75.00 an hour to the invoice over and above what i charge for the annual. SO if I have to go get parts say from Springbank to Leavens in Calgary, its %75.00 an hour. That pays for my hourly costs and for the wear and tear and fuel costs on my vehuicle.

I think you should charge $75/hour for all your time (including travel time, research time and anything else) and drop the mark up. But then I'm just another cheapo customer

I think I realized just now how lucky we were to find our current AME.
And you all have confirmed that you have the customers you deserve.

LF

[Bullet Remington]

You know what people, I just realized I am one of those cheapo customers you've been complaining about. I'm willing to pay $90/hour for EVERY hour you spend on my stuff and you want that AND the privilege of gouging me on parts. You know what, go ahead, it's your business, I'll pay it, probably won't even say a word to you, but I won't be back, ever. And I will have a lot to say to my fellow pilots.

IFP. accounting wise, the ledger only matters for sales tax and by hiding your labour in the parts you are making me pay PST on your labour. Heck it's your customers money, why should you care about an unnecessary 8% extra that he or she legally does not have to pay.

Regarding "sweet talk" my AME, I find that offensive. The only sweet talking I do is "We need our annual done next month, and we really only want to lose it for a week. Can you fit us in? please, pretty please. We do not instruct our AME, other than "Please do the annual and here is a list of additional things that need fixing".

Regarding the oil, the engine is a Continental 0-200-A, I have no idea what the AME's obligations are to meet the regs regarding an annual, that's his job. Of course. this year tribology reports from the last 3 oil changes along with the oil filter from the last change 10 hours ago were sent with the plane. Maybe he takes a sample for analysis also, I don't know, don't really care. I do know our 50 hour change schedule does not reset after an annual and we do not get billed for a filter or oil.

I charge $50.00 an hour, i got outa the AMO business and I free lance now. IF I have to order parts, I add 25% mark up AND I add $75.00 an hour to the invoice over and above what i charge for the annual. SO if I have to go get parts say from Springbank to Leavens in Calgary, its %75.00 an hour. That pays for my hourly costs and for the wear and tear and fuel costs on my vehuicle.

I think you should charge $75/hour for all your time (including travel time, research time and anything else) and drop the mark up. But then I'm just another cheapo customer

I think I realized just now how lucky we were to find our current AME.
And you all have confirmed that you have the customers you deserve.

LF

LF:

FOr the mosty part, valid opinion/s. As for charging $75.00 an hour I don't need that much. $50.00 an hour is fine for me. Plus I do my customer's work in my customer's hangars. That is to say, i do work in an hangar on the aircraft of the hangar owner. I do not at any other time use the hangar to conduct work on other peoples aircraft. It's that way with all my customers. IF I have to get hangar space for a customer, I have the customer pay for the space at what ever the hangar owner charges for rent. I don'tget involved otherwise.

I don't argue with the aircraft owners, primairily as witnessed by your responses on this subject, you and they have already formed you're own opinions and as you have clearly stated several times, you are not that famliar with the maintenance side of the business.

As for you comment with respect to customer base, you are probably 100% correct. I have the base I do because I am very selective on who aircraft I agree tio work on, plus I do due diligence. After all, I've been in this business over 35 years. I've been screwed over in more different ways then listed in the kama Sutra!

While i do have a couple of customers with single engined piston pounders, the majority of my customers have turbines and helicopters. They don't call me when the anuuals, inspections are due, I just go get it done for them, after advising them of course. When i'm done, I bring them a bill and they cut a cheque. End of story. They don't tell me how to run my business and I don't tell them how to run theirs. That probably why we get along. They have no idea what I do,and i have no idea what they do.

they know the aircraft has tio be maintained, and they know thagt I know how to maintain it. I do what they want, they're happy. They pay me, I'm happy.

Just the way life shpuld be!

And by the way, $50.00 an hour works out to $400.00 a day. That's better then most folks are dpoing now givin the economy. I'm happy with that! But I do understnad that you're willing to pay $90.00 an hour!! PM me your name, let me do some checking and I'll contact you!! For $90.00 an hour, I'll entertain taking on anothoer customer!! LOL LOL

And being a fisherman, with all those hand outs from the federal government, per chance you'd spring for lunch too?? Just as long as you don't deduct it from my invloice!!LOL LOL

Oh, and I charge for the parts the way i do because contrary to what others have posted, i have no real interest in tracking down parts, nor purchasing them! The owner can do that anytime they want. Unfortunately, I have three customers that I still have to track down parts for, I have informed them of what i am doing, hoping they'd start handleing the parts , they don';t care! So i contimue doing it that way! I'd rather not though. rather spend my time reapiringthat machine!

[niss]

annual.png (693.45 KiB) Viewed 1121 times

[iflyforpie]

What that means is; IF an owner bring an aircraft to me and says, don't bother checkingthe oil filter or changing the oil, No problem! He is the OWNER and is responsible for te aircraft serviceability, not me! I do exactly as I'm instructed by the owner. Don't want the spark plugs cleans and checked, I don't do it, don't want a gear swing or a compass swing done, again, no problem!

This can be done, but only with some serious CYA on the AME's part.

When I write 'Annual inspection performed as per CAR 625 APP B and C...', it is implied that I did an oil change as it is a required item. (Well.... checking the screens is a required item, changing the oil when you do that is just common sense...)

I need to write 'oil change not done at customer's request' or 'Item 4(d), screens and sump plugs, not performed at customer's request' if it isn't done as part of the annual.

What also is implied in 625 APP B and C are the special inspections required by the manufacturer. Specifically, 1(c): Lubricate in accordance with manufacturer's instruction, and 10: Miscellaneous items not otherwise covered by this listing.

So, for every AME that says, 'oh, it's not in CAR 625 APP B and C, and it's not an AD, so I don't have to do it', watch out...

As an AME, I am still responsible for everything that have have written down and also responsible for writing down any outstanding unairworthy condition in the maintenance release.

If I sign out the annual without checking the screens, both of our arses are on the line...

[Bullet Remington]

Pie":

Just to clarify, LF didn't post the last quote you used in your last post, I did. And from my intrepretation of CARs and the intrepretation of several of the M & M inspectors at the Regional Office, you appear to be incorrect.

While the CARS may imply that you have to change the filter and pull the screens, the OWNER has the final authority of what is actually done to his aircraft. Not you nor I as engineers.

As I clearly stated, I and anybody NOT complying with the CARS, at the direction of the owner, is ONLY acccountable IF there is no disclaimer in the records.

IF you read my post I clearly stated that I insist on a disclaimer AND I get the owner to sign and acknowledge that those specific items were not done.

I have met my commitments IAW CARS and I have met my commitments to the owner.

If you feel otherwise, I strongly encourage you to seek clarification from you loacl M & M Inspector at the local Regional TCCA office.

There is no way your ass is on the line IF you have followed the dictates of the owner and you've placed a disclaimer in the log books!!

You and I as engineers are responsible to carry out the maintenance dictated BY the OWNER IAW with the parameters listed specifically in CAR. ANy implied is NOT a dictate. It has to be clearly stated what is tio be done. AND if the owner over rides what yo recommend, it is NOT you nor my responsibility. PUT IN A DISCLAIMER and you done.

Would you pay for an oil change and filter at cambodian Tire IF you had just completed one BEFORE you brought the vehicle in for a thermostat change and didn't specifically authorize the garage to do it??

Same principle for aircraft. AND the CARs assigns responsibility for the maintenance to the owner.

Do what they ask you to do and nothing more. recommend to them it's their option as owner's to decide what is done, not ours as engineers!!Where their instructions don't meet the dictates of CAR, put in a disclaimer. You're done and good to go. The owner, on the other hand will have to answer to TCCA. MAKE SURE YOU KEEP A SIGNED PHOTOCOY OF THE LOG BOOK ENTRIES AND THE WORK SHEET YOU RECORDED THE WROK ON!

[Bullet Remington]

Niss:

You guys havwe one of those jack - Up shops in Ontario too???

Here's what I'd recommend you'd do; Get YOU current guy to do an annual on you Piper and have him go over it with a fine tooth comb. Tell him to record everything on a separate piece of paper, and to NOT put any entry on the log book.

Now toddle off down to this Jack - Up shop and have them do the same thing! I can promise you, you will NOT get your machine in and out of the door for $650.00. It will be at Least $1200.00 buck s more. And, I 'd venture your total bill will be over $3000.00

And I challenge you to do this, and to post what your AME found and this shop found and billed you!

Oh I would strongly recomment you buy a big honkin jar of vaseline. You're going to need it!!

[iflyforpie]

There is no way your ass is on the line IF you have followed the dictates of the owner and you've placed a disclaimer in the log books!

This can be done, but only with some serious CYA on the AME's part.

When I write 'Annual inspection performed as per CAR 625 APP B and C...', it is implied that I did an oil change as it is a required item. (Well.... checking the screens is a required item, changing the oil when you do that is just common sense...)

I need to write 'oil change not done at customer's request' or 'Item 4(d), screens and sump plugs, not performed at customer's request' if it isn't done as part of the annual.

Pretty sure we are saying the same thing now... Sorry for the misquote, it gets confusing on here at times...

[niss]

Niss:

You guys havwe one of those jack - Up shops in Ontario too???

Here's what I'd recommend you'd do; Get YOU current guy to do an annual on you Piper and have him go over it with a fine tooth comb. Tell him to record everything on a separate piece of paper, and to NOT put any entry on the log book.

Now toddle off down to this Jack - Up shop and have them do the same thing! I can promise you, you will NOT get your machine in and out of the door for $650.00. It will be at Least $1200.00 buck s more. And, I 'd venture your total bill will be over $3000.00

And I challenge you to do this, and to post what your AME found and this shop found and billed you!

Oh I would strongly recomment you buy a big honkin jar of vaseline. You're going to need it!!

I haven't gone to this guy yet, and I have blocked out their name on this flyer. If you guys think it is appropriate I can say who it is as they are quite reputable and used for a lot of work all over ontario from what I understand.

That said his labour rate for work found is quite abit less than my mechanic too.

I have too good of a relationship with my mechanic to switch now just because of price but in the interest of $ and for the sake of my partner I did discuss it with my Mechanic to see if there is anywhere we can save next season.

[KISS_MY_TCAS]

BR,
Excellent posts, and i agree 100%. But, there are still owners that will call to have an annual done and leave it at that only to bitch when the bill arrives. I guess clear communication is the key, and owners should be educated on this fact.

Niss, sticking to 1 AME if you like his work can be a HUGE benefit, as he can save you money as he gets to know your particular aircraft. New plane to an AME always costs more, since they have not inspected it in the past and will dig deeper not knowing the machine or its history. Countless times i have heard "the last guy never found that", and also "next year will be cheaper, right?" The easy answers are it may not have been damaged last year, and if you take good care of the plane, it won't get any MORE expensive.

[Bullet Remington]

Niss:

I don't have a problem with you posting the company name, the moderators might though! I am fully familiar with at least two shops in Ont that are low balling folks and then dry fornicating them when they get the machine in their shop.

I have two different customers here in Alberta that have gone down to them ( one shop in orillia) and have been screwed over royally! And I'm not talking $1000.00 for an annual. I'm talking $15,000.00 for an aircraft that was completely rebuilt during the winter by a highly regarded shop in Calgary with a well earned international reputation. The owner has a new engine, and new prop installed, all new avionics, as I said a complete rebuild. This aircraft was being used buy a private individual for low leverl aerial work. He was doing some work in Ontario and he took the aircraft to the shop, in orillia, to have a 100 hour done.

they soaked him so badly that he will never even land at that airport for fuel again. When the aircraft was rebuilt and we installed a factory new engine. After the intitial break in period i changed out the oil and filter, When i did that I witness marked everything with torque seal.

Afte the machine came back for Ontario for the second 100 hour, I checked the machine over. the torque seals were still in place, along with the torque seal on the filter, filter lockwire, the sump drain plug everywhere. They pencil whipped that machine AND soaked him for a list of parts that were never changed nor even inspected.

I sent photocopies of everything done before they did the machine and after the machine to TCCA in Ontario. BUT appearantly, this shop has a very "special relationship" with the regional TCCA inspector.

IF you have a good working relationship with your current engineer, be careful about toddling off to safe a few bucks. While it looks very enticing, you will quickly learn that the advertised package is no cheaper and have no greater advantage then what you have now.

And if you do leave, in my world you don't come back. But hey, if saving 1000.00 bucks is more important then your peace of mind and satisfaction with the quality of work from your current service provider, hey, have at her!!

[Bullet Remington]

KMT:

yes, you are correct. There have been and always will be those type of owners. I used to have two like that. They'd call me up and tell me an annual / inspection was due and go ahead and do it. I would and every freakin time they'd whine about the invoice. After the second time of that bull shit and them dragging out the whole affasir, I just keptthe aircraft locked down, with the prop removed and locked up in my garage. I also added $500.00 to $1000.00 to the invoic e BEFORE I would put the prop back on and let them have the aircraft back.

One of the two customers had left and tried that with another engineer that ocassionally contracts to me. He went through the same thing with that owner and the owner wanted me to resume doing his maintenance, I refused. He's looking for another engineer right now.

I don't have time to play those foolish games and I won't play them. If I get screwed over once, it won't ever happen again. And I make it a point to advise all the other engineers what that person is like. IF they want to play those games ( and there is always an engineer that will) they can have it! They always learn the hard way!

[niss]

And if you do leave, in my world you don't come back. But hey, if saving 1000.00 bucks is more important then your peace of mind and satisfaction with the quality of work from your current service provider, hey, have at her!!

Oh I definately want piece of mind over $1000 and am not planning on jumping ship just yet, that said given the fixed price of their inspection and their lower labour rate, and the fact that my shops labour rate is about to go up now that they are becoming an AMO I showed it to them asking if there was any leeway. Not for a huge break but for a little flexibility. Again, I wouldn't be doing any justice to my partner if I didn't even bring it up.