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Charioteer
PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 8:19 pm 
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I feel compelled to submit this picture I found on West Caribou Air's website entittled " freight". I wonder what the flight characteristics are on that tank. Is that tank double walled or single. At least it's tied to the right side...I guess. I showed this picture to people who aren't pilots and they even felt it is quite ridiculous. I enjoy how the date is displayed in the corner so we all know when it was flown. Looking up the environment canada historical weather data for that day I hope they did it early in the morning when it was cool instead of late morn when it was 20C out. Judging by the picture it looks about noonish though. I also get a kick out of;
The Norseman is the only aircraft that can take an external load i.e. (boat/canoe) plus passengers to my knowledge because it is the only aircraft that has a manufacturer built and approved boat rack. Any other airplane is out of the loop because of Transport Canada regulations, which become even more restrictive December 2005. Now the plane has limits, but to give you some insight; 1) we have some lakes with baots already on them, 2) one occasion this fall we flew 7 small moose hunter Indians and 2 canoes plus gear, 3) WE ARE IN THE PROCESS of acquiring more commercial boat cache lakes, 4) we can make use of collapsible boats, 5) for speckeled trout river fishing, all you need is a pair of waders...ect...ect...

That's straight off the website...7 small moose hunter Indians, 2 canoes AND GEAR...WOW. That's quite the machine. Must have been a true Norseman day, cold and windy. Are you kidding me guys. How about 4 large Italian moose hunters, one 14' lund and gear or 8 pakistinians, 2 small cows and a goat.
Gee, I wonder why BWP ended up a few meters away from hazelwood drive in Thunder bay awhile ago. The CADORS say the pilot called low fuel and the RCMP say that there was a large area of fuel around the crash. Doesn't make sense. I'm just glad that there was only minor injuries...this time. I don't blame the pilot as much as I blame the organization for lack of leadership. How about the pic of the downwind buzz job entittled norseman wing over, wing over what, the two guys in the foreground or that pole. I think these guys make us all look bad who actually care about doing a good, safe and effective job.
END RANT.


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mcfaulds
PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 9:07 pm 
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Who is this post from "ShedAnoutherTear??? Go cry on your mommies shoulder not here!!


Last edited by mcfaulds on Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Charioteer
PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 10:18 pm 
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nice response cowboy. This is the kind of thing young aviators need to avoid. There has been an increasing number of accidents in the bush due to stupidity. Are you really trying to say that this is an acceptable external? Let me guess, you fly a Norseman and you think it can do it all, do you run Military rating to get it off the water or do you even know what that means.


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HS-748 2A
PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 10:44 pm 
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Charioteer wrote:
Is that tank double walled or single.(?)


Clearly single-walled.

Charioteer wrote:
I showed this picture to people who aren't pilots and they even felt it is quite ridiculous.


Right, so what is your point there?

Maybe you should have shown it around the Lakeview.

'48


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Charioteer
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 12:28 am 
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Man, tuff crowd out here. Double or single walled was a jab bud. Hey is that Mcfaulds handle as in Mcfaulds lake as in Plantenix where WCA is doing a little bipping around. Is that where BWP was coming from? Hell I've done longer jags then that in 185.

And where is the Lakeview? Sounds like a fun place.


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Bushav8er
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:22 am 
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Quote:
The Norseman is the only aircraft that can take an external load i.e. (boat/canoe) plus passengers to my knowledge because it is the only aircraft that has a manufacturer built and approved boat rack.
Not true, others are approved to but that has nothing to due with allowing any loads. You have to check the Type Certificate and see what is spelled out as allowed on the racks. It often lists the max size, length, weight etc and I`ve never seen one that allows tanks, fridges, snowmobiles etc.

Even if an `odd`load is allowed, I`m pretty certain that tying off to a strut isn`t.

Here is a TC (pfd) for a Norseman Mk. V, see Equipment 4, Canoe rack -
http://www.tc.gc.ca/aviation/applications/nico-celn/en/getfile_inc.asp?x_lang=e&FRGNnum=&AFCflag=N&doc_type=PDF&aprv_num=A-8&isu_num=6&isu_dt_start=1964-02-03+00%3A00%3A00&proj_num=640002

If the rack used is under another STC you have to search and check the conditions it has on it.

The DHC2 has more in its TC and includes lumber of certain lenght and type for example.

In the case presented, if the load rack used is the one listed under the TC, carrying a tank as shown would make the C.of A. invalid and cancel insurance. Bottom line - know what you are dealing with before risking your license and neck.


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Dr. Mcillicuddy
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:48 am 
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Looking at the pics, The approved external racks are not installed. What then ? dm


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xsbank
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:59 am 
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Skin
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(where is Hedley?)


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ettw
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 3:45 am 
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Well next to that post with the pic of a Beaver with a 4 wheeler on the rack, this is the craziest thing I've seen. FULL DISCLOSURE...on the scale of things, I have very few hours of float time.

That being said, it appears to me that the ropes tying off to the stuts are just loose ends but I wonder what sort of load is imposed on the strut by the drum being wedged in by the black herc staps to the floats and over the top.

And this was on a website? :shock:

Cheers,

ETTW


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Dr. Mcillicuddy
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 3:52 am 
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Been a while but I seem to remember the nordyn rack attaches to both struts and the float in kind of vertical way??? dm


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beaverbob
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:37 am 
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Go Ahead Boys, Flame away


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tcraft
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:47 am 
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Charioteer what`s your point? The external load issue is just another Transport Canada witch hunt. Aircraft ,including the Norseman have been flying external loads since the dawn of Canadain Aviation.


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wabano
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:00 am 
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TC approve your operation manual, where you'll have detailed all the what not of
lashing stuff to your plane...same thing goes in the US, in principle...
Fact, it's worse down there as different regions have different standards.
I'd fully expect a POI(principal Operation Inspector)in the south to nix everything
while the Alaskans, contemptuous of everything Lower 49, will approve of whatever does not kill you.

You think TC is bad? I remember landing in Cleveland and getting assaulted by a flock of suits
taking the plane apart to find default on anything from Detroit!


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Check Pilot
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:31 am 
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tcraft,

TC witch hunt? Where'd you get that from?

TC doesn't give a rat's ass about external loads anymore.

Before you spout off about it, maybe do some checking around, rookie.
Fly it and then carry what you want, but don't kill anyone is now the modern day credo.


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CLguy
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:00 pm 
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All the pics posted so far are just a "day in the life" of a bushpilot as far as I remember. I certainly haven't seen anything posted out of the ordinary yet. Of course I can see why all the posters who have never lived a "day in the life" would be shocked and appauled but like they say, until you have walked a mile or in this case flown a mile in their shoes.........

How do you suppose all those remote wilderness resorts with all the amenities, outpost cabins, boats etc. arrived at their present locations??


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302sc
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:07 pm 
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way back .......when I was flying c-180 in NWO we used to take 14 foot lund boats on the side of c-180 and various canoe brands, but the worst external load to my humble opinion for turbulence was to strap big moose rack to the side , any one newbie having flown moose antlers have an opinion on that particular subjet,


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CLguy
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:43 pm 
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I agree but for me the worst ever was an 18' Fiberglass Bass Boat with all the bells and whistles strapped under a Beech 18. No doubt it was a one way trip and as far as I know the boat is still at the lake I dropped it off at unless they portaged it out of there.


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niss
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:58 pm 
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Location: I'm a CPL trapped in a PPL's Body.
Worse experience was when I strapped a moose to the port wing, a 17' fiberglass canoe to the starboard, 6 pakistani guys in the back, 3 natives in the front, and 4 italian guys up top, c/w all their fishing/hunting gear.

The cherokee did not want to get off the ground, but no airplane says no to me. :mrgreen: :rolleyes:


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Widow
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:05 pm 
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Two previous threads worth a glance:

External loads on private aircraft
External loads

See also this TSB report on an external load accident, including a list of other accidents with external loads. http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/aviation/2003/a03w0210/a03w0210.asp


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Charioteer
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 9:51 pm 
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I guess for some I wasn't clear enough on my intentions of why I started this post so here it is to beat an otherwise dead horse. what I was trying to get at is, just like any arse can fly VFR in IMC when everything is running right, any arse can strap some ungastly load to his float and get airborne when everything is running right. That's not the point, the point is are you slick enough to run through an emergency procedure while your in it or have it strapped to your float, prop govenor failure, electrical or engine fire. Statisticly low but it happens so why put yourself there. I'm not against externals, sometimes there so sweet you don't even know they are there. But there is a limit to everything and it's called the "old days" for a reason. Bush flying is so much of a revolving door, it's a place to build time and move on for so many and it's not possible to be a knowledgable bush pilot in only a few seasons. i just hate seeing float plane accidents when they are avoidable. I hate seeing young brothers and sisters who are in vulnerable positions being taken advantage of. This is my last post on the subject. Thanks to the people who listened and good luck to the ones who view me as a loser. I can take that. I will be in the bush as long as I can retain a medical, the four winds willing. I hope to meet all of you one day.


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302sc
PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 12:48 am 
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cl Guy

did you fly that B-18 for O.J.? cause I flew O.J. cf-PRZ and it had that ratcheting device under the fuselage for carrying loads between the floats (anyhting that could be strapped was considered ok for flying!)


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CLguy
PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 2:56 am 
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No never worked for OJ. Flew the 18's for Northwest Flying and Rusty Myers.


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bushhog
PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 4:51 am 
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It is quite clear to me that the arse who put this artical on here is just expressing some ill feelings he has toward the air carrier and is very ignorant about the subject of external loads on airplanes, and I would strongly reccommend that He does not do it. It surprises me ,however, that he does have one point correct. The tank is tied on the proper side, probably ,someone from the company he slanders told him that. But as for the rest of his ramble, he obviously does'nt know the difference between a manufacturers certification on a boat rack,and an stc'd boat rack. Nor does he understand the exsemption for the carrage of external loads. I see 6 independant fasteners on this tank,twice as many as required.and i'm sure this type of tank was test flown by the cheif pilot,and is on file.He also does'nt know that the norseman boat rack attaches to the strutt and when a boat is flown it puts alot more strain on the strutt than that tank pressing against it would.I know from personal experience that that tank would fly better than many 14 ft boats, at 20 or 25 degrees.And by the way that was'nt the first,or the biggest external on a Norseman an it won't be the last. Now this is what really makes me relize that he's not right in the head, What in the world do'es BWP's engine quiting have to do with.a normal external load on a Norseman 4 years earlier.??? Is that all He can come up with in the 12 years that wca has been operating ?
Yup! I think I'm right,...He's just blowing wind out his arse! Maybe next he'll tell us about the airplanes he's wrecked.


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N6Driver
PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 5:30 am 
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I agree with bushog! Edited for personal attack, profanity and an attempt to "out" an anonymous poster.


Last edited by Widow on Tue Nov 17, 2009 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
as above.


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N6Driver
PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 5:34 am 
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It's a good thing this sorry ass didn't see the picture of me hauling a 1,000 gal tank on the Norseman!


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