accepting low wages
Moderators: North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako
You three gentleman are all correct. I do not have a problem with paying for my own courses since I work contract. It takes money to make money. As far as wages being low, I couldn't agree more. An apprentice who has to work for nothing just to get an experience is a problem. In Europe the guys I have worked with all went through apprentice programs, but they were treated and paid accordingly. Not sure what the answer is for Canada? The problem is we can talk all we want, but it only takes one guy to say to himeself he will work for nothing just to get his foot in the door and then it is all downhill. I think what would help is a couple of realistic rivals to Air Canada. Something to balance out the demand.
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Pat Richard
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In Europe the guys I have worked with all went through apprentice programs, but they were treated and paid accordingly
I don't know why it has to be otherwise here. The big problem, as I see it, is the number of new apprentices the schools are pumping out. When you're one of the newb's desperatly trying to get in, the work for free ethic begins to take hold. The same holds true for new pilots.
Im kind of 50/50 in regards to people paying for there type courses. In principle, I think its wrong, that as an employee, one would see this as a acceptable practice for training. But if, by doing this, you can open door's to immediate greener pastures, it pretty hard not to.
Most though can't, for reason's we've discussed before, and I still believe that ones employer should be the one doing the training, and not as a reward program.
Yeah, the tool thing again. Really can't figure that out. It seems to be a north american mindset, in regards to accepting this as normal.
All the guys I know from Europe and South Africa said they were in disbelief when they came here and saw what people were spending on tools vs. what they made.
I honestly don't think that will ever change here, although it would be cool to at least see a starter set awarded to apprentices, in exchange for the low/nil wages they get.
I think that even that is an unrealistic expectation in the forseeable future.
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Vickers vanguard
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we rarelly get to a two pages posting !!! keep-up the bitching boys 
..........................I'm just kidding boys !.....just kidding !:mrgreen: 
I'm not too sure if I could picture an organization purchasing tools for the worker. I guess it would make sense since it is the company who requires the aircraft being maintained and therefore should collect employees and equipment to do so. TC does however require companies to have the proper facilities, personnel and equipment to get the work completed. It would be interesting to hear what they consider as equipment other than jacks, GPUs, battery chargers, shop air, lighting and 115V outlets. In the automotive industry, obviously, buying tools is part of the job, so I don't see why it would be any different for working on aerocrafts. Mind you, I wouldn't mind someone supplying me with a $14,000 baby blue snapper-on toolbox, but I'd be able to understand if they didn't.
The amount I've personally spent as an apprentice on tools, education, TC exams, and transportation to and from work, does not come close to justifying the paycheck I receive. Yet the expectations to have the proper tools, knowledge, qualifications and arriving to work on time don't change. I've considered completing courses later on in my career with hard cash with the intention that it would make myself more valuable. As mentioned, it is too bad that courses are at many times given by a company as rewards or seniority rather than the company realizing that it would benefit them if their employees were that much more knowledgeable on their products. I remember working at Home Depot; they had trained everybody in their seasonal department on lawnmowers and barbeques products 2ice a year, not because we deserved it, but because it was in their own best interest. I'm sure a A330 course might cost more than a Weber natural gas bbqer, but a company running 330s probably makes more per seat than they would if it were per bbq, so the ratio might not be that far fetched.
Nonetheless, Canada seems more and more through my eyes as a starter kit for aviation where you pay or beg for mostly anything for the first 5 or so years almost as some type of ego-based initiation and then gain respect and prosperity based on survival of the fittest and willing. Not that pay should be high as a newbie, but at least somewhat respectable. So many places are offering $10/hr and $10/hr is a caterpillar steel toe highlace boot to the tooth. That would equal to a $6/hr job in the US 2 years ago, which I believe now is less than minimum wage. Paper routes, telemarketing, and mcdonald's become attractive since they don't require college, tools or skydrol.
The amount I've personally spent as an apprentice on tools, education, TC exams, and transportation to and from work, does not come close to justifying the paycheck I receive. Yet the expectations to have the proper tools, knowledge, qualifications and arriving to work on time don't change. I've considered completing courses later on in my career with hard cash with the intention that it would make myself more valuable. As mentioned, it is too bad that courses are at many times given by a company as rewards or seniority rather than the company realizing that it would benefit them if their employees were that much more knowledgeable on their products. I remember working at Home Depot; they had trained everybody in their seasonal department on lawnmowers and barbeques products 2ice a year, not because we deserved it, but because it was in their own best interest. I'm sure a A330 course might cost more than a Weber natural gas bbqer, but a company running 330s probably makes more per seat than they would if it were per bbq, so the ratio might not be that far fetched.
Nonetheless, Canada seems more and more through my eyes as a starter kit for aviation where you pay or beg for mostly anything for the first 5 or so years almost as some type of ego-based initiation and then gain respect and prosperity based on survival of the fittest and willing. Not that pay should be high as a newbie, but at least somewhat respectable. So many places are offering $10/hr and $10/hr is a caterpillar steel toe highlace boot to the tooth. That would equal to a $6/hr job in the US 2 years ago, which I believe now is less than minimum wage. Paper routes, telemarketing, and mcdonald's become attractive since they don't require college, tools or skydrol.
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Pat Richard
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Snap on might be pushing it a little, but a set of Mastercraft Professional tools+a decent roll around box, would be more than adequate, and would'nt run more than $1500 tops.You could proably do it for less if you buy in quantity. I'd have no issue if a company demanded a contract in return, for year, or so in return.
I know it's not likely, but its being done elsewhere, so it is remotely possible.
I know it's not likely, but its being done elsewhere, so it is remotely possible.
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Pat Richard
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tools and courses
I dont see companies buying tools for their AME's any time soon. Perhaps thats why AME apprentices can now write off there tool purchases on their tax return.
As for courses, I recently went through a training course, at no cost to me, however, if I leave the company before I have completed 2 years of service, I'm on the hook for the course cost. I dont have a problem with this type of agreement. It just keeps you for jumping ship for other opportuninties at the employers expense. It seems people abused the training situation and bailed out early, even though they had given their word to stay.
Giving your word and keeping your word don't seem to be an option these days.
Cheers Nick.
As for courses, I recently went through a training course, at no cost to me, however, if I leave the company before I have completed 2 years of service, I'm on the hook for the course cost. I dont have a problem with this type of agreement. It just keeps you for jumping ship for other opportuninties at the employers expense. It seems people abused the training situation and bailed out early, even though they had given their word to stay.
Giving your word and keeping your word don't seem to be an option these days.
Cheers Nick.
Hey pat! I think we stirred up a real hornets nest here! hahaha
Let me respond to af few post here enmass first yes I am a first gen. canuck and I actual hold dual citizenship as well so maybe i am still an imigrant and I can relate to what people have to say about that issue.
Also i look forward to the day i will have enough hours to get that expat job in asia/middle east, I love the concept of tax free status...
The thread started as I recall as a discussion about some folks bringing down the pay rates by being willing to work cheap/not making a solid (read permanent) commitment to this country by shipping the bulk of their pay back to there homelands. As I said previously I have no problem with this provided they don't make things worse for those already here.
Finaly to vickers
lastly to pat don't let them get to you dude lets keep the language clean people like us know what time it is even if they don't.
Let me respond to af few post here enmass first yes I am a first gen. canuck and I actual hold dual citizenship as well so maybe i am still an imigrant and I can relate to what people have to say about that issue.
Also i look forward to the day i will have enough hours to get that expat job in asia/middle east, I love the concept of tax free status...
The thread started as I recall as a discussion about some folks bringing down the pay rates by being willing to work cheap/not making a solid (read permanent) commitment to this country by shipping the bulk of their pay back to there homelands. As I said previously I have no problem with this provided they don't make things worse for those already here.
Finaly to vickers
lastly to pat don't let them get to you dude lets keep the language clean people like us know what time it is even if they don't.
Heres a different angle on the situation,
Part of the problem is that we newbies to the industry, come on forums like this, and read that the average pay for an apprentice is $10 to $14/hour. We all beleive that this is the going rate, therefore, we accept the first job that pays in that range. I wasn't expecting to find a job paying more than $14/hour, so I didn't even look for something that might pay more.
That one guy who was willing to accept lower wages took it up the ass 5, 10, 15 years ago. What we have now is the result of him doing just that. The entire industry has brought the wages down to meet this level. Those of us just entering the market are now faced with accepting lower wages because that is all which is offered.
So what needs to happen is that no one accepts working for dirt. If everyone across the country did this, then the industry would have to increase wages. Demand would go up and wages would follow. But once again this is where our friend comes back into the picture. All it takes is one person to accept the low pay, and we end up back at square one.
Mabey the schools need to include some negotiation classes. Since they are the ones flooding the market with new personel, they should be the ones to introduce the idea of accepting better wages. Teach a course on bartering tactics so that when it comes time to talk about money, the new guy has some idea of how to get a better wage. If you don't know what your worth, then your not going to try and get it.
Part of the problem is that we newbies to the industry, come on forums like this, and read that the average pay for an apprentice is $10 to $14/hour. We all beleive that this is the going rate, therefore, we accept the first job that pays in that range. I wasn't expecting to find a job paying more than $14/hour, so I didn't even look for something that might pay more.
That one guy who was willing to accept lower wages took it up the ass 5, 10, 15 years ago. What we have now is the result of him doing just that. The entire industry has brought the wages down to meet this level. Those of us just entering the market are now faced with accepting lower wages because that is all which is offered.
So what needs to happen is that no one accepts working for dirt. If everyone across the country did this, then the industry would have to increase wages. Demand would go up and wages would follow. But once again this is where our friend comes back into the picture. All it takes is one person to accept the low pay, and we end up back at square one.
Mabey the schools need to include some negotiation classes. Since they are the ones flooding the market with new personel, they should be the ones to introduce the idea of accepting better wages. Teach a course on bartering tactics so that when it comes time to talk about money, the new guy has some idea of how to get a better wage. If you don't know what your worth, then your not going to try and get it.
Every one of my ancestors had a pretty intense accent when arriving in Canada, Canada needs immigration. In my apprentice days I learned a lot from guys (my buddies) who came from Nigeria, Ethiopia, Hong Kong, Chile,Guyana and even Mongolia. Ethnic background or recency of arrival are just fine with me but... The new apprentices graduating from the Colleges in Canada will have a tough time competing with the imported aircraft maintainers (and yes this has been going on forever) who is looking out for the people from right here ahead of the interests of the cheap wage corporate lobby (CAMC etc..)with all the political muscle/connections. Don't apprentices who are here now deserve first crack at the jobs and a chance to gain experience? There have been whole classes graduating from AMT courses with nobody getting jobs in aviation for months/years. Who gives a damn about them?
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Pat Richard
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Pat Richard
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So what needs to happen is that no one accepts working for dirt. If everyone across the country did this, then the industry would have to increase wages. Demand would go up and wages would follow
I think that this does happen time to time in aviation. I've seen job postings' here which seem to indicate just that. The job posts' started(I noticed) months back, with the wages given as "TBD", and now are being given. One is offering $31 to start for ame's, when just a month ago they were offering $28 for 2 crew chief positions.
I can't confirm what exactly is going on, but from experience, it looks like they cant get people, and are having to increase/show the money up front to try and entice people. These places are in the north, so there recruitment possibilties are that much less, as most experienced ame's won't want to go there from the south for anything more than short/medium term contract work.
It does'nt help aviation that trades are booming also. It gives us all options other than aviation. So maybe the industry is on its way to dryholing itself.
I still cant believe people buy into the crap the schools spew out. If anyone gradding is surprised these days at the job market after they come out, they deserve it. You can't even begin to miss the clues.
First of all Pat, I'd like to admit that the picture of the large monkey has inspired me to further pursue a career in aviation.
Secondly, I think it's important for amo's up north to offer bigger cabbages than those down south in order to compete. Hopefully, with all the retirees, the quitters and the people who just won't join the industry will starve the AME population in Canada. That would drown aircraft maintenance, and then competitive wages would be the only hope for redemption. With the potential of American companies setting up base in Canada and vise versa by 2007, hopefully they will bring aircraft line maintenance competition as far as airline and regional commuters. This would really force Canadian companies to pull up their socks as far as offering wages in comparison to the global scale. But I am optimistic that wages will increase as the shortage of AMEs decreases, since AME's, apprentices and foreign licensed workers will have more choices beyond $10 or $15 an hour.
Secondly, I think it's important for amo's up north to offer bigger cabbages than those down south in order to compete. Hopefully, with all the retirees, the quitters and the people who just won't join the industry will starve the AME population in Canada. That would drown aircraft maintenance, and then competitive wages would be the only hope for redemption. With the potential of American companies setting up base in Canada and vise versa by 2007, hopefully they will bring aircraft line maintenance competition as far as airline and regional commuters. This would really force Canadian companies to pull up their socks as far as offering wages in comparison to the global scale. But I am optimistic that wages will increase as the shortage of AMEs decreases, since AME's, apprentices and foreign licensed workers will have more choices beyond $10 or $15 an hour.
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Neufi_1981
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Most newcomers to the industry will be the first in line to accept piss poor wages just to be in the position where you guys are, to complain about all of us A@@hole apprentices whom are taking those wages and Unfortunatly driving your wages down!!
It seems to me that it takes some sacrafice now a days to "get your foot in the door", and with all of the new apprentices being "pumped" out of the numerous (and growing) number of colleges, it is only going to continue.
As for what Pat is saying, "I still cant believe people buy into the crap the schools spew out. If anyone gradding is surprised these days at the job market after they come out, they deserve it. You can't even begin to miss the clues.", You are absolutley right. CRAP is what the schools are pushing down our throtes. But most of these people are comming straight out of high school and they do not check the job market and even if they do, maby the "clues" are not as obvious as they are for someone who has exposure to the industry.
It seems to me that it takes some sacrafice now a days to "get your foot in the door", and with all of the new apprentices being "pumped" out of the numerous (and growing) number of colleges, it is only going to continue.
As for what Pat is saying, "I still cant believe people buy into the crap the schools spew out. If anyone gradding is surprised these days at the job market after they come out, they deserve it. You can't even begin to miss the clues.", You are absolutley right. CRAP is what the schools are pushing down our throtes. But most of these people are comming straight out of high school and they do not check the job market and even if they do, maby the "clues" are not as obvious as they are for someone who has exposure to the industry.
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Pat Richard
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Neufi,
I agree that those just out of high school may tend to be a bit oblivious. But the reality is, if you read /watch the news, with any kind of regularity, or do a google search even once, you will quickly become aware of what's happening with aviation in Canada. It does'nt require heavy research.
So I don't believe they can have a justifiable excuse in " we did'nt know".
It's all around them.
Pat
I agree that those just out of high school may tend to be a bit oblivious. But the reality is, if you read /watch the news, with any kind of regularity, or do a google search even once, you will quickly become aware of what's happening with aviation in Canada. It does'nt require heavy research.
So I don't believe they can have a justifiable excuse in " we did'nt know".
It's all around them.
Pat
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Neufi_1981
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Pat
I absolutely agree with you! But like you said about the reality of seeing all of the information on the news or with searching on the web, the other side of the coin suggests that, fresh out of highschool, these kids are not doing their own research or even bothering to pay attention to the news at the supper table with mom and dad. Unfortunately, the medium for these kids is the radio or the job fares they attend while in highschool. I think if the medium changes (or what's conveyed in the medium), then this predicament may have a chance of turning its self around.
I absolutely agree with you! But like you said about the reality of seeing all of the information on the news or with searching on the web, the other side of the coin suggests that, fresh out of highschool, these kids are not doing their own research or even bothering to pay attention to the news at the supper table with mom and dad. Unfortunately, the medium for these kids is the radio or the job fares they attend while in highschool. I think if the medium changes (or what's conveyed in the medium), then this predicament may have a chance of turning its self around.
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Pat Richard
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absolutley agree Neufi. I guess im surprised that todays generation would be so trusting of the employer lobby(CAMC) at the job fairs without questioning them.
Being a little older, I remember when I was in school, we pretty much took what was said as gospel. No questions asked. Theseday's, with so much info available at the fingertips, and the general mistrust of authority, I would've thought the "great career in aviation" fairy tale would be a harder sell to youth.
I guess some probably don't want know/hear anything negative about aviation, and will do it regardless. Im not going to get going down that track again, but I think its stupidity, for reasons I've listed in other posts.
Cheers'
Pat
Being a little older, I remember when I was in school, we pretty much took what was said as gospel. No questions asked. Theseday's, with so much info available at the fingertips, and the general mistrust of authority, I would've thought the "great career in aviation" fairy tale would be a harder sell to youth.
I guess some probably don't want know/hear anything negative about aviation, and will do it regardless. Im not going to get going down that track again, but I think its stupidity, for reasons I've listed in other posts.
Cheers'
Pat
