Boeing 737NG simulator seeking pilot...

[rightseatwonder]

AT,

from experience I can assure you, when you try to trim the plane with the electric trim with an autopilot engaged... it will disconnect! Thats when you hear the duck call! By the way, how do you simulate that?!?

Very interesting to see your progress. cheers,
RSW

[alphatango]

Hi RSW,
Very thank you for your answer... I understand that if trimming the plane with the electric trim located on both yokes will disconnect the A/P if this one is engaged. And the loud OOOIIINNNGGG OOOIIINNNGGG will be heared!
To answer your PM, yes that was for simplicity that I did not add catches at flap 1 and 15. It would have been very difficult to add it to the home made throttle. But now I have it on the real one. I either never saw real throttle without it...
Also the way to disconnet the A/P when changing the trim is by programmation! This is just software...
Actually the sim is in major modifications by removing the old throttle, adding new ones and many many improvements as thirth screen for outside view, better back ligthing on EFIS etc. So no much time to make my site up to date. BBBBBut as soon as possible I will add many photos
If you want to have a best idea of that BEAST, just call me and see it in real
Much thanks,
Alain

[Jastapilot]

You are aware that the electric trim only disengages the autopilot, but NOT the autothrottle, right? You keep speaking about the throttles, so I just want to make sure you're not confused. The speed mode will stay engaged, and the autothrottles will still target the speed bug, but the rest of the autopilot takes a nap and hands over control!

[alphatango]

Thank you for that precision Jastapilot.
This is what was in my mind. The A/T will stay engaged... But it could be a little confusing.
Alain

[Jastapilot]

you're right! Cheers, glad to hear you're still progressing!

[The Fish]

Hey Alain,

Not sure if anyone has previously recommended the Cockpit companion by Bill Bulfer, but I think you could benefit greatly from this book. It contains allot of the little nuances and intricacies that you would need to know about.

http://www.cockpitcompanion.com/servlet ... ion/Detail

Sim is looking great, by the way!

Cheers

Fish

[alphatango]

Hello All...
A new question again...
Is it possible to make a landing in A/T mode, with this A/T activated until the toutch down?
If yes, once on the ground will this A/T will disconnect by itself or do we need to turn it off manually. In my mind it should turn off Automaticaly but am not sure how it is in real cockpit.
I need these informations for the programmation to make it as in real...
Thank you again,
Alain

[Tiny Voices]

Yes, it is possible to land with the auto throttle engaged to touch down. With us, it is SOP to have it disconnected by 50 feet if flying manually. The auto throttle does not disengage on its own at touch down. For example, the if conducting a CAT II or III autoland, the autopilot disengages shortly after touchdown but the autothrottle must be disengaged manually. Hope that helps answer you question. You've done an amazing job building that thing. Outstanding work!! Don't think we're doing YQB overnights this winter, otherwise I would of loved to have dropped by to see it in person

[alphatango]

Hello Tiny Voices,
A great thank you for your answer
Could you just confirme that you are talking about 737NG's please? I was so sure it would disconnect the A/T !
Be sure you will be welcome to visit me and the sim if here in Quebec anytime...
Many thanks,
Alain

[Tiny Voices]

Sorry Alain. You are correct. For the NG, the A/T does disconnect on its own two seconds after touch down and the A/P must be disengaged manually. Our FOM actually says "the autopilot should be disengaged." Apologies for misleading you! Guess that's why I'm in the right seat, huh? Lol!

Hope to take you up on your offer someday .

Cheers!

[alphatango]

Hi Tiny Voices,
I was a little surprise by your answer. So as it seemed wrong, I asked if you were talking of the 737NG...
First as the A/T button is a little far away from FO (on the MCP) it was not probable that the pilots flying had to disconnect it once on the ground. Then in my mind it should disconnect automatically.
Second as the A/P disconnect button is located on the MCP but also on the yoke it was possible that the pilots had to disconnect it manually because it is easy to do via the yoke button.
Finally, as we wish to stop as soon as possible, then we wish that A/T do not push the throttle for accelerating during the delay between the toutch down and the moment that the pilot turns it off.
I am happy to see that my logic is not that bad...

Anyway, do not appologise for this mistake... I would change my sim experience for your right seat place anytime !
Your right seat joke made me laught a lot...
Alain

[rightseatwonder]

AT,

Just a comment but I have never seen a pilot on the NG disconnect the auto-throttle with the MCP switch... that is used only for arming it (in my experience). Im sure you could if you wanted to but the throttle thumb switches are obviously placed there for convenience.

Also, as for throttle delay from touch down to auto throttle disconnect 2 secs later, the auto land function plans the round out and flair to touch down right as the throttles are brought to idle, so there would be no thrust beyond idle. This is very different from a normal manual landing as the auto throttle if still engaged would be targeting your last bugged speed!! But the auto pilot with auto land does such a good job you have to remember that its your turn to go to work once you're on the ground!

Disconnect the auto-pilot, confirm the auto throttle has disconnected after 2 secs, confirm speed brakes have deployed and get the reversers out!

Have fun! And I second the above recommendation for the cockpit companion... lots of stuff in there I am sure would help you out.

cheers

[Tiny Voices]

Good morning Alain,

You logic is not bad at all. Just a minor thing. You do not have to use the switch on the MCP to disarm the A/T, only need to use this switch Arm the system. You can disarm the the A/T by using the individual switches on the ends of the number 1 and 2 thrust levers. Click one and the A/T switch on the MCP goes from arm to off. Just a bit of technical info that may be useful to you...once "Flare" is annunciated in the FMA (at 47 feet RA) the thrust levers close at a rate so as to reach the closed position at touch down. Should give you a touch down V/S of about 150 feet per minute. From an SOP (WJ SOP that is) stand point, an Autoland would be conducted under Cat II or III conditions (recommended under CAT II. Required for CAT III) . This would fall under the category of a Monitored Approach. For a Monitored Approach, the Captain will always be the PF.

Hope that's useful info and not adding confusion. Again, keep up the great work! Looks awesome! If I could, I would gladly give up some time inthe right seat for you, Lol! In the meantime, if you're on board one day, feel free to pop into the flightdeck and say hello before we get going or after we're parked at the gate. Most of us love to talk about our airplane and show it off a little .

[alphatango]

Rightseatwonder,
I have to precise something for you understand my mistake answer...
As you maybe know I found real throttle to replace those I previously built....
Bbbbbbbbbut... thoses throttle are from 737-200! So there are no A/T disconnect switches on them. I do not know if all 737 not NG are the same, but those I have do not have these A/T disconnect buttons... This is why I did not even think to disconnect the A/T this way!

On an other way maybe I could do something to simulate it anyway. It could go this way. The programmation could be done as follow...
If the aircraft is in the air or on the ground, and the flaps are more than 25 degrees (25, 30 or 40) and the A/T armed, if I push the TO/GA switche(s) located on the throttle it would do a A/T disconnect.
If the aircraft is on the ground with less than 15 degrees flaps with the A/T armed, pushing the TO/GA switch would activate the TO/GA mode...
By programmation this is possible to do. But do you think that it might conflict with certain procedures ?????

I keep in mind the cockpit companion recommandation. Maybe at the last stage, when I will need more knowledge and will have more free money... Now most of my available money is for build...! But i will remember.


Tiny Voices
Oufffff, a lot of stock here...

First now you understand why I did not think to disconnect the A/T by the A/T disconnect Switches on the throttle...
It has been so difficult to find those very old throttle, I think it would not be possible to find Ng throttle!
But as you can see maybe I could so something to simulate it anyway... Just have to know now if it would enter in conflict with something while the A/T is armed and I wish to use this TO/GA switch as a A/T disconnect switch.
Just thinking to that, an other option I have and probably the best...... I could program the #1 TO/GA switch for TO/GA mode, and the #2 TO/GA switch for A/T disconnect!!!!! I think it would be the easiest way!

Just a bit of technical info that may be useful to you...once "Flare" is annunciated in the FMA (at 47 feet RA) the thrust levers close at a rate so as to reach the closed position at touch down. Should give you a touch down V/S of about 150 feet per minute. From an SOP (WJ SOP that is) stand point, an Autoland would be conducted under Cat II or III conditions (recommended under CAT II. Required for CAT III) . This would fall under the category of a Monitored Approach. For a Monitored Approach, the Captain will always be the PF.

What is in bleu is a little consused for me. Not sure that I understand very well. All the remaining is effectively very usefull and well understand by me
One of my greatest wishes is to have the possibility to fly on a regular basis the sim with a real 737 pilot and to learn a lot of procedures. In the same time to do modifications when needed and when possible to make the sim as real as possible. This, only a real pilot could tell me what is ok and what is not.

Knowing that money is a big obstacle in some cases... Lets think to movement of the sim! It is possible to be done but cannot think to that! $$$$$

I went to Sao Paulo, Brazil 2 times. And from Sao Paulo to Rio once. This one was on a 737-800NG (precisely the same as my sim) Each flight I tried to talk with pilots and talked of my project. This is 4 years ago so my built was at the beginnig... Also, sometimes it is difficult to access because they are busy or because of the regulations now. So, sometimes I am a little shy to ask. But every times I pass throuht the opening of the cockpit my eyes was illuminating! My girl friend told me... I know this is right
Next time I take the plane I will ask here if someone is pilot on this aircraft!

No need to tell you that one dream is to be in the cockpit for a real flight to see all procedures and to feel the real life in there... I know this is no more possible now...
And am so sorry from it!
At least I have my sim...

Alain

[rightseatwonder]

On an other way maybe I could do something to simulate it anyway. It could go this way. The programmation could be done as follow...
If the aircraft is in the air or on the ground, and the flaps are more than 25 degrees (25, 30 or 40) and the A/T armed, if I push the TO/GA switche(s) located on the throttle it would do a A/T disconnect.
If the aircraft is on the ground with less than 15 degrees flaps with the A/T armed, pushing the TO/GA switch would activate the TO/GA mode...
By programmation this is possible to do. But do you think that it might conflict with certain procedures ?????

I am guessing you are trying to find a way to disconnect the auto throttle on approach by adding that programming to one of the toga switches. It would work of course to program as you mentioned, on approach with flaps 30 at 50 feet you hit toga button and auto throttle disconnects and you flare as normal (with the Flight director in toga mode (you're looking out the window and off auto pilot by now anyways) but if you were landing say with flaps 30, and wanted to go around, at say 200 feet with the auto throttle still engaged, you would hit the TOGA button and TOGA would be activated but auto throttle would disconnect (along with the auto pilot as normal).

Do i have that right?

This is not a huge deal in itself, (as long as you manually control the throttles, but its much nicer to have auto throttle for the go around. As you know when in a normal approach, after TOGA is pressed, the autopilot disconnects, but as long as it was engaged the auto throttle still works. This would be the main change in "normal" procedure if you were to change the programming to the TOGA switch. But, If you could rearm the auto throttle soon afterwards, via the MCP switch then no problem. Also, if you wanted to simulate a full -800 out of say Maui ( ) then you would have no auto throttle (after TOGA) for take off as it is often flaps 25 out of there!

I am guessing that right now you would disengage the auto throttle via the MCP switch on short final?

This is way over my head in terms of simulation programing but it is awakening my appreciation for all that is happening when i hit the buttons when i'm at work!
lol!

[Tiny Voices]

A Monitored Approach is just an approach that, due to certain prevailing conditions, must be flown by the Captain with the FO monitoring the instruments throughout the approach, landing, and rollout. For us, a Monitored Approach is required when CAT II or III operations are in effect, for RNP Approaches where the vis is at or below the charted value, and on ILS Approaches when the RVR is below 2600 or vis is below 1/2. We have a low visibility flight deck review (checklist) that gives us guidance as to when a Monitored Approach is required, the required equipment to conduct the approach, recommended aircraft configuration, and in the case of autoland, the limitations (x-wind, head wind, tail wind). It's just a Standard Operating Procedure (SOP) thing. Doesn't help with the building and set up of you sim but, could be of interest once you get it up and flying.

Cheers!

[alphatango]

Rightseatwonder,

I have difficulty to understand some explainations...
TOGA would be activated but auto throttle would disconnect (along with the auto pilot as normal)
Also ...
As you know when in a normal approach, after TOGA is pressed, the autopilot disconnects, but as long as it was engaged the auto throttle still works. This would be the main change in "normal" procedure if you were to change the programming to the TOGA switch. But, If you could rearm the auto throttle soon afterwards, via the MCP switch then no problem.
I did not know that on approach TOGA was turning off the AP.

Anyway, finally I decided to use an other method that would let the AT on and could turn the AP off... I explain

Both TOGA would be only TOGA switches use as normal.
I have on the throttle 2 switches that are not simulated in my sim... On the Stab Trim section both Main Elect and Auto Pilot cut out switches wont be simulated... So I will use one of them for the AT disconnect. This is close for an easy access and I do not have the Toggle guard like in real. So easy to turn it off...
What do you think about this method?

Now, please tell me...

What is the procedure when you land in IFR conditions...?
I imagine that you put flaps 30, no more until you decide that you proceed for landing. If you TOGA you will do with 30 flaps...! Am I right? If landing conditions are ok then you add 40 flaps for landing?

Also an other question...

Is it logical and approved to take off with more that 15 flaps????? 25, 30 for example on a short runway????

You understand a little better why I wish to fly the sim with an experiened pilot... A lot of stuff to learn on my side
Thank you,
Alain

[frog]

TOGA will disconnect the Autopilot unless it is a dual autopilot approach

[Tiny Voices]

On a single channel (1 A/P engaged) approach, pushing TOGA disconnects the A/P but, not the A/T. Pushing TOGA once commands the thrust levers to go around (GA) thrust. A second push of the TOGA button commands max thrust. Under normal conditions, one push provides more than adequate thrust for the GA.

Both flaps 30 and 40 are considered normal landing configurations. Pilot discretion really. For the most part, I prefer flap 30 on the 600/700 runway length permitting. Usually only a 3-4 knot difference between ref 30 and ref 40 on the 600/700. On the 800, I prefer flap 40 as it flattens out the landing attitude to more closely resemble what I'm using to seeing in the 6 and 7. The difference in ref is also much more significant, 8-10 kts. Landing in IMC conditions, the aircraft would be fully configured and stabilized for landing by the FAF. Landing in VMC conditions, the aircraft must be configured and at ref (or no more than ref +20 and trending toward ref) by 1000 feet. Stabilized approach criteria.

Most takeoffs are flap one, some are flap 5. As RSW said though, under some atmospheric conditions, takeoff weight, and or field length restrictions, you may need to use flap 15 or 25. Think Maui (6995 ft runway, hot and heavy heading for the mainland) or Thunder Bay on a winter day with a dirty slippery runway.

[alphatango]

Tiny Voices,

A lot of interresting infos here...

I did not know that a second time pushing TOGA pushes throttle to max... INTERRESTING and easy to simulat I think

I understand ... Landing in IMC conditions, the aircraft would be fully configured and stabilized for landing by the FAF. Landing in VMC conditions, the aircraft must be configured and at ref (or no more than ref +20 and trending toward ref) by 1000 feet. Stabilized approach criteria.
Just what means IMC and VMC? I know where is located the FAF in the approach, just dont know what IMC & VMC... Weather conditions?
Alain

[Tiny Voices]

Sorry Alain! IMC is short for Instrument Meteorological Conditions, and VMC would be short for Visual Meteorological Conditions.

Cheers!

[alphatango]

It seems I am a very old man... When I was flying it was
IFR (instruments Flight Regulation) or
VFR (Visual FR)
AGAIN, a new little question (I am a little shy with all these questions)
Is it possible to turn the AP ON while on the ground let say before take off or will the system turn it off automatically?
Muchas Gratias...
Alain

[Tiny Voices]

Still is IFR and VFR. Those are the rules under which you would conduct your flight. IMC and VMC would be the weather conditions you are flying in. For example, you could be filed on an IFR flight plan but a part or all of the flight may take place in VMC conditions.

Don't know about engaging the A/P on the ground. Never tried. Don't see why you couldn't from a technical point of view. The only two criteria for A/P engagement that I'm aware of are having no pressure on the control column and having the Stab Trim Cutout switch's in normal. I'd imagine Avionic techs would have occasion to turn A/P's on on the ground for service and maintenance checks?

[alphatango]

Hi again...
As I am programming the throttle logic I need many infos...
Once more then, maybe the last one...!
Lets imagine that the AP is engaged on the MCP but not the alt button... The AP can be "ON" with tne "Heading" activated, nothing else. The pilot would have to fly by himself the altitude... So in this situation the trim wheel should be controled by the pilot, not by the MCP so that trim will move only when the pilot makes it moving... At least this is what I think!
But in the Flight Simulator software this trim wheel is activated by the MCP.
As it seems to be an error in my mind I need your help to make it clear to me...
In thesituation AP "ON", Heading "ON" , ALT "OFF" will the trim wheel be activated by the MCP or by the pilot?
Thank you,
AT

[alphatango]

No answer to this question?