Inspectors: Airline safety at risk

[Check Pilot]

Widow,

Thanks for posting the anonymous "plea", obviously from one of my former peers.

From my perspective, it pretty much says it all.

It's for exactly that stuff that I quit after 29 years. I didn't want to quit because up until the bagel gunners started giving us pilots our future marching orders, I really enjoyed working with and making contact with the Aviation Companies and most of all, the pilots that worked the skies for them.

When we got briefed on SMS in one of our "Western Regions" by one of the star attraction bagel gunners here in the fall of 2007, I knew it was over for me. This "halfway to Hollywood" type was expounding on just exactly how it was going to be done. For a long time the back end TC folks have wanted to tell pilots how to go about the business of getting an aircraft up and down, and it seemed to me at the time of that "briefing" SMS was the chance for them to finally put the boots to those "ignorant" pilots that were making way more money than they were.

She eventually got promoted into the inner circle of management and soon conveniently forgot to return any answers to questions that seemed to be pertinent to SMS implementation asked by any pilot that dared to ask. Apparently, the questions from the pilots were deemed a bit too unrealistic and complicated to answer in a fashion that would please the upper management above her. Because of the prevailing opinion at the time that had become more intense by the day to get rid of "ignorant" pilots, that was the defining moment for me to leave. So I did. I left. I retired. I'd had it with the wannabe's.

And for you Lousyfisherman, what makes a bagel gunner or AME, which also do not require much formal education any better at understanding flight operations than a pilot? Have you been inside the TC system or any kind of other aviation world as an employee that cares? If not, go grind your uninformed axe somewhere else.

[LousyFisherman]

And for you Lousyfisherman, what makes a bagel gunner or AME, which also do not require much formal education any better at understanding flight operations than a pilot? Have you been inside the TC system or any kind of other aviation world as an employee that cares? If not, go grind your uninformed axe somewhere else.

No I am a damager. I manage 12 people.
Pilots are taught to manage planes not people.
They also tend to work in isolated environments of 1, 2 or 3 people so they lack experience with politics and emotional reactions that occur in larger teams. Without proper training they have neither the skills nor the experience to operate a large organization.

At least FA have experience working with people.
But then your use of perjorative to refer to them demonstrates another reason why many pilots make lousy managers, their arrogance.

I make no claim that that FAs, or AMEs without training make better managers than pilots without training. But Widow's source makes the claim that pilots without training make better managers that the others.

All I asked is why he or she would make that claim?

And that upset you, why?

LF

[Prairie Chicken]

Obviously Widow's source is an inspector & I can easily commiserate with his position.

I disagree with the source & with CP that it takes a pilot to be a manager but their opinion is a common one. While I agree a captain learns a great deal about leadership, responsibilitiy & accountability, and obviously has a lot of exposure to the operations side of the business, it is the individual's ability to lead which makes a good manager. Leadership is both a natural & a learned skill. I see no reason why senior management needs technical skills or experience to be effective. All that individual needs is the technical expertise to call upon, and the self-confidence to accept the advice of his experts.

I do agree with CP that CAI's, being the highest paid in the inspectorate group, have long been the envy of other groups and are being targeted by other inspector groups & supported by the budget-conscious. Perhaps some here are not aware that in government it is very unusual for a subordinate to make more salary than a manager. That goes against the gov culture & I believe is a large part of the issue here.

Snaproll, I think you've got it.

[sierra foxtrot]

In my 40 years as an AME I have worked with incredably capable people both AME's and pilots so for me to hear how one group is better than the other is kind of discouaging. We have to pull together in this latest undertaking to turn TC around.
In my opinion TC has been hijacked from the aviation industry and SMS is part of the problem. Everyone wants a better and safe industry. I agree we require a TC that comes into organisations and audits them. The industry continues to prove it requires oversight.
But SMS won't bring the safety culture required into the system. If anything it will place small to mediuim operations in a situation where senior qualified personal will be tied up doing paperwork instead of working with junior personel installing safety attitudes into them. Another thing required long before SMS is training. Of all the accidence I am familiar with training would have changed the outcome on all of them. I don't believe for one minute a person would put the wrong fitting on a Fuel Control knowing it would cause a flame out. They just don't understand AN, MS NAS hardware.
In my opinion TC must become more involved and user friendly with the industry. With the large amount of resources behind TC imagine how useful they would be.

[Check Pilot]

sierra foxtrot,

You make some very enlightening statements.

The only issue is, that TC no longer has a large amount of resources. That goes especially for AME's and CAI's. I wish it weren't so. Soon you will be getting, if I can use the word "audited" by clerks armed with checklists that you can either pass or not pass muster in the mind of, albeit well intentioned, non aviation personnel. It likely won't change soon.

Your remarks make sense.

[sierra foxtrot]

Check Piolt

I agree with you on the point of TC having less resources than they have in the past.
I also feel there is another issue, and I hope it's not considered as TC bashing but just an observation... I don't feel TC has the will to deal with our industry. Since the introduction of CAR's TC seem to have become confrontational and unbending. Now it appears they want to alienate us and move a hugh amount of thier current responsiblity to different types of aviation associations, ie PAMEA, HAI etc.. I have heard a number of reasons way they are trying to accomplish this, liability, cost savings .... but to me it just reiterates that there is the wrong mind set at TC in Ottawa. We all know if there is a politcal will cost is not an issue with governmants.

[snaproll20]

the anonymous plea posted by Widow is very significant and reflects what many of us have believed, without direct evidence. Merlin Preuss should have been fired, with his pension removed, for the damage he did to Canadian aviation.
WHat the anonymous writer did was prove what I, Cat Driver, and others have been saying for a long time. Dishonesty, corruption, pandering, incompetence at the highest levels.

Does it not strike anyone as strange that such a plea, damaging as it is to the status quo, was sent to a lady who, a few years ago knew precious little about aviation? How massive in stature is Widow now? Without disrespecting her, I would ask why the system itself did not recognize and correct problems. Instead, Widow, a 'mere' citizen has proven beyond doubt what I keep preaching here.

"Get off your sheep-like asses and make the Government run your industry the way it should be done."

[Jaques Strappe]

LousyFisherman wrote:

No I am a damager. I manage 12 people.
Pilots are taught to manage planes not people.
They also tend to work in isolated environments of 1, 2 or 3 people so they lack experience with politics and emotional reactions that occur in larger teams. Without proper training they have neither the skills nor the experience to operate a large organization.

At least FA have experience working with people.
But then your use of perjorative to refer to them demonstrates another reason why many pilots make lousy managers, their arrogance.

I make no claim that that FAs, or AMEs without training make better managers than pilots without training. But Widow's source makes the claim that pilots without training make better managers that the others.

All I asked is why he or she would make that claim?

And that upset you, why?

I just read the last page of this thread and saw this post. WTF? This statement may have been true 30 or 50 years ago but what rock have you been hiding under? As a pilot, I can tell you that along with managing fuel, weather and other associated risks, I spend the majority of my time managing people because we are all part of the previously mentioned parts of the puzzle. Why do think the industry spends billions of dollars on Crew Resource Management? During any check ride at Air Canada for instance, 50% of the grade is based on CRM skills.

Granted, you mention pilots "without training" but do you really think that pilots in general are loners and not team players? Oh thats right, it is our arrogance that gets in the way. I certainly hope for your employers sake that you do not manage pilots.

If you hadn't already indicated that you were in management of some sort, your remarks would have certainly demonstrated validity to the " Peter Principle", an apparent prerequisite for lower management these days.

"And that upset you why?"

The irony is killing me.

[Meatservo]

Oh, stop it, all of you. This is a ridiculous argument. The complaint seems to be that the upper management of Transport Canada is beset by people who suffer from pettiness, self-aggrandizement and lack of personal integrity. Well, how is this different from management types in general? Those who aspire to leadership for its own sake are usually those who are least qualified to lead. It doesn't really matter whether it's a pilot, an AME or a flight attendant. I would buy the argument that a pilot may be better able to understand and create policy as it pertains to safety of flight, but we still need TC inspectors who know about maintenance, and any flight attendant who wants to bother is more than capable of reading and interpreting the CARS as they pertain to air operators, assuming he or she is equipped with the requisite intelligence. What there is a real shortage of is strong, honest, intelligent people of good character, and I'm talking about the world at large, not just aviation, although it's pretty glaring here, isn't it? Most of you can't even spell.

[bmc]

Oh, stop it, all of you. Well, how is this different from management types in general? Those who aspire to leadership for its own sake are usually those who are least qualified to lead. I would buy the argument that a pilot may be better able to understand and create policy as it pertains to safety of flight, but we still need TC inspectors who know about maintenance, and any flight attendant who wants to bother is more than capable of reading and interpreting the CARS as they pertain to air operators, assuming he or she is equipped with the requisite intelligence. What there is a real shortage of is strong, honest, intelligent people of good character, and I'm talking about the world at large, not just aviation, although it's pretty glaring here, isn't it? Most of you can't even spell.

Just because you are a pilot qualifies you for, well, just about anything?

[snaproll20]

meatservo

I agree that people in general are of questionable character.
However, that does not mean we have to shrug it off and get on with life accepting this.

The dishonesty at the top of TCCA has placed our industry in jeopardy. Trust has been destroyed.
I have never been critical of TCCA and Preuss in particular, without due cause.
I have to ask you if you would find it acceptable to go to the dentist or doctor for an invasive procedure and be happy with someone doing it who just got their St. Johns Ambulance Standard Level First Aid......oh, and they lied to their employer because they actually did not even attend the course!!!

I really have difficulty accepting your submissiveness and think you deserve whatever negativity comes your way from TCCA.

The clipboard police-drones are coming to a ramp near you.

The system is broken and has become a self-sustaining haven for people who cannot cut it in the real world.

[Old fella]

"Just because you are a pilot qualifies you for, well, just about anything?"


I would draw the line on being a Cellar Master for DRC

[Meatservo]

Snap,

I deserve every bit of negativity that comes my way? What a stupid thing to say. I was commenting on the fact that this particular thread is poised to dissolve into the usual indignant bickering about whether or not it's pilots who are the ones most qualified to lead Transport Canada. I was pointing out that if you could simply hire for intelligence and integrity, rather than ambition and self interest, it wouldn't matter if the people in senior management were pilots, flight attendants, or career management types. I have met some flight attendant managers in the private sector who are very professional managers, for example.

It happens that I have been reading this thread with interest, and I have a similar opinion to your own. Other than your idea that it's OK to throw a flight crew or two to the wolves if it helps to get your point across. It sounds to me like you have gotten yourself very excited over this thread, and now you are lashing out inappropriately. Perhaps you could be more constructive by outlining the steps that you yourself have taken to combat this problem, both in the industry and in the upper ranks of TCCA. Other than sounding off on AvCanada of course, we've already seen you doing that, God knows. I'm sure you would earn more respect for yourself by making more effort toward civility and away from hyperbole like "get off your sheep asses"; and "you deserve everything you have coming".

I guess what I'm trying to say is, I've been sort of digging the more intelligent points in this debate about the obviously flawed and completely misunderstood and poorly administered "SMS" program, when the conversation has avoided veering off into insulting AMEs and flight attendants, and subsequently pilots, name-calling (sheep), and reproachful preaching.

[Rubberbiscuit]

Snaproll20 wrote:

Rubberbiscuit.....you use the word 'vendetta'. That is over the top. You also say "required to audit companies". Do you not know that the National Audit Program was suspended months ago? In other words, there is virtually no auditing going on, unless it is provoked. Obviously, you do not understand the ramifications of SMS in as much as it pretty much does away with audits altogether. It also does away with "Inspecting".
I have never been a fan of TCCA and have met some nasty Inspectors. However, the good people I have met always had some inkling of how it should be done. These are the ones that some of you are putting down.

Okay, so the National Audit Program as we knew it is gone but that doesn't mean Inspectors are not out in the field. Where I work went through a very extensive audit recently where TC interviewed everyone from upper management to baggage handlers and pilots. The old audit system was overrated anyway as far as I am concerned. Any operator that knew how to break the rules and get away with it was probably pretty good at showelling the evidence under the rug before TC showed up to conduct one of their annual audits/inspections. Audits and inspections does not uncover who fly overweight, bust minimums and fudge maintenance inspections.

The system is broken and has become a self-sustaining haven for people who cannot cut it in the real world.

That is an ignorant statement and just proves how narrow minded you are. I know quite a few inspectors over at TC from various walks of life. Some of them worked at airlines such as C3 and simply got sick of the EI line or living out of a suitcase. None of them failed to "cut it in the real world"!

[snaproll20]

OK, Meatservo and rubberbiscuit.
i think it is good that we can have dialogue. We do not have to agree necessarily.
My point about the 'sheep' is that is exactly what most Canadians these days are.
(God knows the Americans may be worse.) Nobody votes, nobody speaks up. It is just that in our industry, the results can be worse if we do not make it work as it should. If you compare what Widow has achieved by being involved, perhaps you may begin to see where I am coming from.
The comment about "good" inspectors is not fair to me because I have usually acknowledged in my posts that there are good people at TC. However, as we see on this thread, people like Praire Chicken are becoming disenchanted and leaving. Such loss is of inestimable proportions. As someone said, the inmates are running the asylum. I was actually, in concert with the anonymous TC writer, criticizing the senior (Ottawa) "bagel gunners". It has always been obvious to me that when you hear bullshit coming from the top, then something has to be done. If you do nothing, you are a sheep. As for what I personally have done, I will not tell you.

I can agree that the DG for TCCA, or any other department of the government does not have to be a pilot, or the equivalent. However, the person must be committed, approachable and honest. That is something we have not seen for a number of years.
Surrounding yourself by sychophants does not promote positive results and suggests inferior leadership qualities.
My own personal experience proves that to me and one of the people I respect most, a man who worked both sides of the industry, agrees.

As for hoisting flight crews up the mast, I believe it is a cheap alternative to a major accident, which many people, including our anonymous TC guy, says is on the way. Also, I DID suggest we ALL turn ourselves in. In other words, we need the public made aware.

[armchair]

.

[The Old Fogducker]

Why are you quitting at such a young age?

Alas Minister, I am a man with no future in the Civil Service at Transport Canada.

Why is that?

Because I am whats known as a technical expert.

[c170b53]

As always on this site; Feel the respect.
SMS ? but was the previous system of inspectors any better when the boss was involved?

[Rubberbiscuit]

OK, Meatservo and rubberbiscuit.
i think it is good that we can have dialogue. We do not have to agree necessarily.
My point about the 'sheep' is that is exactly what most Canadians these days are.
(God knows the Americans may be worse.) Nobody votes, nobody speaks up. It is just that in our industry, the results can be worse if we do not make it work as it should. If you compare what Widow has achieved by being involved, perhaps you may begin to see where I am coming from.
The comment about "good" inspectors is not fair to me because I have usually acknowledged in my posts that there are good people at TC. However, as we see on this thread, people like Praire Chicken are becoming disenchanted and leaving. Such loss is of inestimable proportions. As someone said, the inmates are running the asylum. I was actually, in concert with the anonymous TC writer, criticizing the senior (Ottawa) "bagel gunners". It has always been obvious to me that when you hear bullshit coming from the top, then something has to be done. If you do nothing, you are a sheep. As for what I personally have done, I will not tell you.

I can agree that the DG for TCCA, or any other department of the government does not have to be a pilot, or the equivalent. However, the person must be committed, approachable and honest. That is something we have not seen for a number of years.
Surrounding yourself by sychophants does not promote positive results and suggests inferior leadership qualities.
My own personal experience proves that to me and one of the people I respect most, a man who worked both sides of the industry, agrees.

As for hoisting flight crews up the mast, I believe it is a cheap alternative to a major accident, which many people, including our anonymous TC guy, says is on the way. Also, I DID suggest we ALL turn ourselves in. In other words, we need the public made aware.

Fair enough. I think if we had this discussion over a coffee at Timmies it would be diferent. On the upside what is going on over at TC is getting some attention now in media and elsewhere. With sustained pressure/attention maybe some positive changes will be made.

[snaproll20]

"The manner in which the RCMP responds to my report and that of Justice Braidwood to follow will have a profound impact on how the iconic institution is viewed by Canadians," said Kennedy.

Reading between the lines, Kennedy is as good as saying that the top levels of the RCMP have made a mess of this situation.

More importantly, he's saying that if they don't own up to the problems that have arisen since Victoria resident Paul Pritchard shot his now-infamous video, they will be putting the reputation and future of the RCMP on the line.

We, the public, have a responsibility to make a clear distinction between the various players in the Dziekanski affair and the solid officers who patrol our streets.

There are the four officers who Kennedy says acted inappropriately; there are the senior officers who have prevaricated to try to spin the actions of those four; then there is a bureaucratic culture within the RCMP that allowed the first two to collide as if we were watching a train wreck in slow motion.

The above is from the Daily News. Does it sound familiar to people in aviation when you look at TCCA over the past few years? I think we need the commission.

[Prairie Chicken]

Rubberbiscuit wrote

Okay, so the National Audit Program as we knew it is gone but that doesn't mean Inspectors are not out in the field. Where I work went through a very extensive audit recently where TC interviewed everyone from upper management to baggage handlers and pilots. The old audit system was overrated anyway as far as I am concerned. Any operator that knew how to break the rules and get away with it was probably pretty good at showelling the evidence under the rug before TC showed up to conduct one of their annual audits/inspections. Audits and inspections does not uncover who fly overweight, bust minimums and fudge maintenance inspections.

Actually, the inspectors are not out in the field! The majority I speak to, from various divisions, have been directed to stay in their offices and only get out on rare occasions to conduct an SMS assessessment, which is what it sounds like your company just went through.

Having said that, I agree the previous audit program didn't pick up as much as it should have. There was a lot to be said for 'no-notice' audits, and the POI's usually knew exactly which companies warranted those. Unfortunately, if we keep going in the direction we are, the expertise won't exist in TC to recognize an overweight a/c if it drove over your foot!

As far as the Kennedy report goes, it shouldn't come as a surprise. I do get surprised when I hear of an effective & outspoken government entity (such as the Auditor General). TCCA, the Food Inspection Agency, the RCMP ... all seem to be the product of decades of governments (both Liberal & Conservative) that are more interested in staying in power than in serving the people. An informed person only needs to watch Question Period for a day or two to understand just how low a regard our leaders hold us in. I believe it is the government that is setting the example for their various departments & agencies, and we shouldn't be surprised when the departments follow suit. It isn't pretty!

Sorry. End of rant!

[snaproll20]

Yeah, PC, the "government attitude" is exactly where I am coming from.
Canadians need to re-establish their right to good, dedicated Government.
But never mind, the Chinese will be running it forty years from now, or less.

[Shax]

Yeah, PC, the "government attitude" is exactly where I am coming from.
Canadians need to re-establish their right to good, dedicated Government.
But never mind, the Chinese will be running it forty years from now, or less.

Not if Widow has her way - we'll all be part of a socialist republic (d)evolved out of the NPD where Gestapo-esk unions will oversee our "safety" so that we can be saved from ourselves.

[Rockie]

Yeah, PC, the "government attitude" is exactly where I am coming from.
Canadians need to re-establish their right to good, dedicated Government.
But never mind, the Chinese will be running it forty years from now, or less.

Not if Widow has her way - we'll all be part of a socialist republic (d)evolved out of the NPD where Gestapo-esk unions will oversee our "safety" so that we can be saved from ourselves.

Though the circumstances that caused Widow to get involved are tragic, she is the best thing to happen to our industry in a long time.

[Sasquash]

Well said, Rockie, well said