capt Hal haynes talk about 60 age retirement law

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scopiton
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capt Hal haynes talk about 60 age retirement law

Post by scopiton »

taken from his interview about the DC10 crash @ sioux city.
rather than considering the question from retirement plan and seniority only; it gives another light to this question
Q: What do you think of the mandatory age 60 retirement law?

H: I get that every time. Well, this is kind of not the way to answer
your question, but since I'm going to be sixty, this is great. This is
not United, this is not ALPA, this is not even a lot of my friends,
this is just me. My feeling. As we get older, we hate to admit it,
but things happen to us. We forget things, we react slowly to things.
A young pilot can react a lot faster than an older pilot. He may react
wrong. The senior pilot, the experienced pilot may wait a second and
do the right thing, so they kind of balance each other out. But we do
things as we get older that I'm not so sure our physicals can pick up.
A very dear friend of mine was having trouble remembering things. The
crews he was flying with accused him of early senility, or drinking on
layovers. When they finally diagnosed him, after about a year, they
found a tumor the size of an orange in the back of his brain. So all
this is going on, anytime this is happening in this year, he could have
had a very serious situation at a very critical time, and we could have
had problems. This doesn't just happen to 55 year olds, this happens
to 30 year olds, I know. Until we come up with a very definite way to
check the medical aspects of a person as he gets older, and until we
find a way to check the ability of a pilot--as you get older, you might
lose some of your abilities, rather than gain some. And you can also
fake it. Any pilot, on any given day, can pass a a checkride. And the
best pilot in the world in a given day can flunk a checkride. When you
get into that situation, you get into an extended program of trying to
test his competency. SO until we have a better way to test the
competency, and a better way to test the mental and physical aspects of
an individual, I think we need an age to stop. I think that's the best
way to do it, just pick an age. We're going to hurt some people. I
just met the other day, or a couple of months ago, a guy down in CA,
he's 82 years old, he just decided it was time to retire as a teacher
of acrobatic flying. And he was sharp as a tack. He didn't wear
glasses, could hear, didn't wear a hearing aid, and everything else.
But he's a freak of nature [laughter]. Well, he's like Nolan Ryan.
Nolan Ryan, if you're a baseball fan, is a freak of nature. Nobody 42
years old should be able to throw as hard as he does, and last as long
as he does, and most pitchers don't. Yeager is another one. Most his
age don't have the eyesight Yeager has, and the hearing Yeager has, and
all this sort of thing. But they're exceptions to the rule. The rule
is, somewhere along the line you should stop. Now, I don't care if
it's sixty. Right after I retire, they can make it 65, it's ok with
me. But somewhere along the line, we have to have a place to stop. If
they can come up with good medicals, and good things, then go ahead.
But I think the cost, and everything else--we're all looking at the
bottom line, and it's just not worth it. Anybody else?
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Rubberbiscuit
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Re: capt Hal haynes talk about 60 age retirement law

Post by Rubberbiscuit »

Not that I am half the pilot he is, but he did point out the two things I brought up in another thread. The undeniable fact of detoriation with age, especially reaction times, and more thorough medicals.... for all ages, if that makes it fair!
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Re: capt Hal haynes talk about 60 age retirement law

Post by Rockie »

Medical and competency standards will obviously have to be vigorously monitored and enforced. The precedence has already been set for increased medical for 40+ pilots, and I doubt there would be any objection to increases above that for 60+ with emphasis on age related issues.

The new thing is going to be competency, since age related loss of competency is not something standards departments have had to deal with before. A joint company/labour/medical review process will have to be set up I think to decide when a pilot's competency is lost forever.

None of these problems are insurmountable.
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Rubberbiscuit
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Re: capt Hal haynes talk about 60 age retirement law

Post by Rubberbiscuit »

The precedence has already been set for increased medical for 40+ pilots, and I doubt there would be any objection to increases above that for 60+ with emphasis on age related issues
From what I hear though TC is changing medicals for those over 40 to every twelve months as well. Maybe it will be every 6 months for those over 60? Or would that be age discrimination? No pun intended. Maybe since 50 is the new 40 that should be the cutoff for annual vs. six month :wink: medicals
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Re: capt Hal haynes talk about 60 age retirement law

Post by rudder »

Rockie wrote:Medical and competency standards will obviously have to be vigorously monitored and enforced. The precedence has already been set for increased medical for 40+ pilots, and I doubt there would be any objection to increases above that for 60+ with emphasis on age related issues.

The new thing is going to be competency, since age related loss of competency is not something standards departments have had to deal with before. A joint company/labour/medical review process will have to be set up I think to decide when a pilot's competency is lost forever.

None of these problems are insurmountable.
Several Canadaian carriers with post age 60 pilots already and have been for years. No reason to change the standards/rules just because AC will soon be in the same boat. Hard for some to believe but the world does not revolve around AC :)
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Jastapilot
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Re: capt Hal haynes talk about 60 age retirement law

Post by Jastapilot »

I can see where this will go. No pilot over the age of 60 will be able to have a fellow crew member over the age of 40... or something like that. Maybe that will appease the masses?
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Re: capt Hal haynes talk about 60 age retirement law

Post by Rockie »

rudder wrote:
Rockie wrote:Medical and competency standards will obviously have to be vigorously monitored and enforced. The precedence has already been set for increased medical for 40+ pilots, and I doubt there would be any objection to increases above that for 60+ with emphasis on age related issues.

The new thing is going to be competency, since age related loss of competency is not something standards departments have had to deal with before. A joint company/labour/medical review process will have to be set up I think to decide when a pilot's competency is lost forever.

None of these problems are insurmountable.
Several Canadaian carriers with post age 60 pilots already and have been for years. No reason to change the standards/rules just because AC will soon be in the same boat. Hard for some to believe but the world does not revolve around AC :)
Hardly. I used to work for a small carrier that had a few 60+ pilots. Small carrier = small problem. Everybody knows everybody and when someone is no longer capable it was obvious to everybody there. Air Canada is a different kettle of fish with 3000+ pilots and a very robust union. Training, checking, medical and personel issues take on a "sausage factory" like characteristic by dint of sheer numbers. If there is not increased monitoring then it will be an issue.

It is not being Air Canada-centric.
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Re: capt Hal haynes talk about 60 age retirement law

Post by rudder »

Rockie wrote:Hardly. I used to work for a small carrier that had a few 60+ pilots. Small carrier = small problem. Everybody knows everybody and when someone is no longer capable it was obvious to everybody there. Air Canada is a different kettle of fish with 3000+ pilots and a very robust union. Training, checking, medical and personel issues take on a "sausage factory" like characteristic by dint of sheer numbers. If there is not increased monitoring then it will be an issue.

It is not being Air Canada-centric.
As usual, AC will have trouble doing what everybody else has been doing just fine for years. Unless I am mistaken, WJ/Transat/Jazz are all age 65 airlines. That would mean that they represent an aggregate pilot population approaching 3000. While they are not seeing 100+ per year turn 60, standards are standards. If AC decides to set a higher internal standard, good luck. AC CCP's and CAME's are exercising their authority on behalf of TC not AC flt ops.

If AC wants a 'to do' project then it can start to analyse how it will be compliant with the embargo on pairing 2 post age 60 pilots. Much, much larger airlines in the US have figured out how so I am sure that with a dozen meetings and perhaps the assistance of 3 external advisory firms that AC will figure it out too :roll:
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Re: capt Hal haynes talk about 60 age retirement law

Post by KAG »

I can't see why you shouldn't be able to fly as long as your medically fit. I also think we should have to do blood work, I'm all for early detection.
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Re: capt Hal haynes talk about 60 age retirement law

Post by Rockie »

rudder wrote:If AC wants a 'to do' project then it can start to analyse how it will be compliant with the embargo on pairing 2 post age 60 pilots. Much, much larger airlines in the US have figured out how so I am sure that with a dozen meetings and perhaps the assistance of 3 external advisory firms that AC will figure it out too
There will be a very long list of "to do" projects, and my point has always been to get started on them ASAP. You also won't get any argument from me on Air Canada's inability to deal with change.

But it really doesn't matter to me how other carriers do or do not address this since I no longer work for them. Age related illnesses and loss of competency is not something either the medical or standards people at Air Canada have had to deal with to any degree before. It will become a factor though and they not only have to be cognizant of that, but they will not have the option of relying on retirement to solve the problem for them. They will have to enforce medical and competency standards in a way they haven't had to before.

If WJ, ACJ and AT don't think it's an issue good for them. But I have to ask, how many pilots have those companies forced into retirement because of a permanent loss of competency? None?
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Re: capt Hal haynes talk about 60 age retirement law

Post by mbav8r »

I'm just curious, but has there been any studies done or analysis about the increased strain on the disability
insurance? I gotta figure the odds of ending up on disabilty due to health issues has to increase with age. At jazz
we pay an enormous amount of money every month for STD and LTD and the reason is obviously how much it is being used.
So bare with me here, all of the arguments about not moving up the list because the retirments are pushed back will be somewhat negated, because they may be on the list, but if you're sitting at home on disability your not on the roster.
Again, I wonder what percentage past 60 will end up on disabilty?
If anything it will drive up the cost of insurance. If this has been brought up previously, I apologize.
If WJ, ACJ and AT don't think it's an issue good for them. But I have to ask, how many pilots have those companies forced into retirement because of a permanent loss of competency? None?
I don't think you can force someone to retire for permanant loss of competency.I would think one could argue their loss of compentency is due to medical reasons. I just heard that someone I flew with before, is out on disabilty and probably will be for the last 2 years before retirement, which is what brought this question to mind.
Another question came to mind, do the ltd/std premiums go up with age? Life insurance premiums do, so maybe disabilty should aswell.it might be the difference on someone choosing to stick around or not. Your premiums should be based on the likelyhood of using the ins not supplemented by the younger healthier generation. I know I'd be upset if 2 years down the road my premiums started sucking more of my already low wage because of an increase in disabilty claims, from the the ones making 3 times my wage, just playing devil's advocate here, so go easy on me
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Re: capt Hal haynes talk about 60 age retirement law

Post by Rockie »

mbav8r wrote:I'm just curious, but has there been any studies done or analysis about the increased strain on the disability insurance?
Excellent point. Disability insurance is a big issue that will have to be dealt with and is probably around #3 on the list. As for the permanent loss of competency, that's why I said review boards would have to comprise management, union and medical people. There's always a physiological reason for it having to do with old age. We know this from the drivers out there.
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Re: capt Hal haynes talk about 60 age retirement law

Post by Crown_n_Coke »

There should be a mandatory age past which one should not be able to drive a car. Perhaps 80? Doctors and MOT driving inspectors seem to find it very hard to tell someone that they aren't fit to drive any more and just shut their eyes and use the rubber stamp.

My grandfather passed all his tests once he hit 80 but within the next 2 years, he had written-off 2 cars in his 2 first ever at-fault accidents and seriously injured one person. The powers that be saw him to be as fit to drive as he was 50 and 30 and 10 years earlier. I don't buy the "fly as long as you're fit!" argument for a minute.

Pick an age and go with it. I don't want the MOT doctor agonizing wether or not to pull the medical of a eg.73 year old 787 captain at some point "He's passed all the tests and the blood work is fine but he just doesn't seem to be as sharp as last year. Should I end his 52 year career today or just let him go for 6 more months and re-evaluate then? Dammit Jim! I'm a doctor not a God. Hold on..." :wink:
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Re: capt Hal haynes talk about 60 age retirement law

Post by Rockie »

Crown_n_Coke wrote:I don't want the MOT doctor agonizing wether or not to pull the medical of a eg.73 year old 787 captain at some point
Evaluating a person's medical fitness is their job. Pulling a persons medical will never be pleasant or desirable, but if they are incapable of doing it perhaps they should find another line of work. The same could be said for standards pilots. In fact the same could be said for line pilots. If we agonize over tough decisions to the point we are incapable of making them we have no business sitting in the left seat.

For the most part though we will probably leave before that is a factor, but there will be times when it's necessary.
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Re: capt Hal haynes talk about 60 age retirement law

Post by Jaques Strappe »

Rudder

I sense a sarcastic twinge in your statements about Air Canada not accepting change. While I do have my frustrations about the way Air Canada and ACPA do things sometimes, I am also quite proud of how we attempt to stand up to some issues. Is this resisting change? Yes I suppose it is but having been in the industry for over 25 years, I can honestly say that most of the change I have witnessed in that time, has unfortunately, been for the worse.

If there was never any resistance to things, the landscape today would be very different. Although I don't agree with the fly to 65 thing as it relates to Air Canada, ( due to our collective bargaining, not health ) I do agree with Rockie in regards to planning properly for that possible eventuality. Either way, the pilots at Air Canada don't usually just sit back and do nothing while policy which impacts their careers is written.

So no, the world does not revolve around AC but like it or not, a lot of what we do does have influence on the rest of the industry.
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Re: capt Hal haynes talk about 60 age retirement law

Post by RB-211 »

Jaques Strappe wrote:a lot of what we do does have influence on the rest of the industry
Industry where? Canada?

And?
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Re: capt Hal haynes talk about 60 age retirement law

Post by DocAV8R »

Jacques Strappe wrote:
) I do agree with Rockie in regards to planning properly for that possible eventuality.
Obviously Air Canada does as well, as they train the 777 RP's to full FO standards, so no problem when the over 60's come back next year. They also have done studies that showed how much money they would be saving and know that it is a matter of a few months now...
It is ACPA that needs a dose of reality and to quit lying to the troops and get on with a smooth implementation strategy. This case is lost in the courts and all that is left is the "Fat Lady" and she will be singing loud and clear.
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Re: capt Hal haynes talk about 60 age retirement law

Post by Jaques Strappe »

RB-211 Wrote:
Industry where? Canada?

And?
Yes Canada, as this site is titled, AvCanada, my response was regarding Canada. As for your "And?" I don't really think I need to highlight that Air Canada's 70 year history here has had some influence on the industry.


DocAV8R Wrote:

Obviously Air Canada does as well, as they train the 777 RP's to full FO standards, so no problem when the over 60's come back next year. They also have done studies that showed how much money they would be saving and know that it is a matter of a few months now...
It is ACPA that needs a dose of reality and to quit lying to the troops and get on with a smooth implementation strategy. This case is lost in the courts and all that is left is the "Fat Lady" and she will be singing loud and clear.
Air Canada was training RP's to FO standards before the age 60 debate started. They started doing this on the 340 before we got rid of them. The management of the airline apparently has concerns regarding increased costs associated with GDIP and lower productivity. Can't say that is a legit concern or not, it was just one thing that was brought to my attention from a management pilot representing the company's position.

Personally, I think it is coming no matter what unless a case is made that the age 65 contingent now impacts the rights of others. A case is being made right now in fact, that shows statistics generally indicate an earlier death to those who retire later. Forcing someone into that situation is also against any human right. The argument would be, that nobody is being forced to 65 but, those who choose to go at 60 are now doing so at a lower rate because those who choose to stay, are occupying the higher paid positions. Of course an obvious solution to that would be the dissolving of our current pension scheme, much to the delight of the company. We will see what happens but I don't think there will be any answer anytime soon and there will be appeals. One thing about Canadian politics, nobody is willing to make a decision about anything unless their ass is securely covered.

Shitting all over ACPA? What is that all about? They are there to represent all of us and are trying to find a solution that best suits all of us, not just those who want to retire at 65.
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Re: capt Hal haynes talk about 60 age retirement law

Post by Old fella »

Anybody who wants to work beyond 60 yrs of age is NUCKING FUTS

:roll: :rolleyes:
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Re: capt Hal haynes talk about 60 age retirement law

Post by bcflyer »

Old fella wrote:Anybody who wants to work beyond 60 yrs of age is NUCKING FUTS

:roll: :rolleyes:
Amen to that!!!
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Re: capt Hal haynes talk about 60 age retirement law

Post by beast »

Anybody who wants to work beyond 60 yrs of age is NUCKING FUTS
its about time someone pointed that out
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Re: capt Hal haynes talk about 60 age retirement law

Post by Rubberbiscuit »

Old fella wrote:Anybody who wants to work beyond 60 yrs of age is NUCKING FUTS

:roll: :rolleyes:
Agreed. However, 3 ex wifes, some shiny German cars in the garage and living in a small mansion of sorts will do it as well.

Between the "the longer you work, the sooner you will die", and the fact that I believe the longer you stay with it, the harder it becomes to adjust to life without flying, I know I am getting out as soon as my finances will allow me. If I want to keep flying past retirement I will rent a plane or buy one!
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Re: capt Hal haynes talk about 60 age retirement law

Post by Rockie »

Life happens. Personal lifestyles choices aside, sometimes events completely outside a persons control occur that make it necessary to continue working. Do you want to tell someone they can't continue working in order to pay for his wife or kid's expensive cancer treatment, or pay alimony to a wife who left him for their neighbor?

People who say they are going to leave at 60 no matter what because unlike the greedy bastards they have "integrity" are either already 60 and able to retire comfortably, or very young and talking out of their ass. Either way it is not for them, or us, to judge a person's reasons for not wanting to retire.
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