To the few disillusioned instructors out there...

KAG · Post by **KAG** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 8:43 am

Now let me start off by saying this isn’t an instructor bash here, I was an instructor myself. Think of it as a wake up call to the ignorant or disillusioned few…

I have met and worked with a lot of really good pilots that have instructor backgrounds. But every once in a while I come across one who is an embarrassment to the profession.

You know who I mean, the one who spent too many hours in the circuit, told everyone how to do their job, and acted like a argumentative know it all. These one’s usually were fortunate enough to spend a few hundred hours teaching Multi IFR and therefore think they are ready for a direct entry CPT job on a light twin turbine.

I’m here to remind you that you may know the CARS, have you’re A’s, lots of TT, but you still have no real experience. Therefore you need to shut your mouths and learn form those sitting to your left, even if they have the same total time as you. 2000 hours of circuit banging and couple hundred hours doing simulated approaches isn’t all that impressive and please realize you have a lot to learn.

I would also like to address the notion that because the north is uncontrolled, it’s not valuable experience. That train of thought is not only ignorant it’s completely incorrect.
I can tell you it requires as much if not more thought / planning up north than down south. Why? You’re doing your own ATC, shooting full procedure approaches into unprepared strips, where the runway conditions are unknown, unreliable, or crappy at best. Weather is sparse or unreliable as is fuel.

So when you do get a job flying in a 2-crew environment, here are a few pointers so as not embarrass yourself:
Don’t walk into a job and ask when will you get an upgrade.
Don’t question or argue with your CPT on every decision he/she makes.
Don’t talk to your CPT or fellow copilots like they’re your students.
Don’t argue SOP’s – memorize them.

Sit there, do as your asked, watch and learn. Ask questions, be open minded to new and different ways of doing things, and if your CPT is doing something that makes you feel real uncomfortable or stupid - then say so in a non confrontational manner.

End of rant.
Cheers.

Snagmaster E · Post by **Snagmaster E** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 9:06 am

I'm an instructor now, but have done charter work as well.

King Air Guy, I agree with you. Not all instructors make good bush, right seaters, et cetera, but it's also true that not all pilots make good instructors. Some guys are career instructors, and have worked hard at their job.

I know that when I go to a new job, I know that I know absolutely nothing about how things are run. I sit there and take it in for the most part, asking the occasional question. That's the reason I'm in the right seat. Yeah instructors who go to the right seat with an attitude won't do very well, but they're not all like that. A lot realize that they're doing something different, and know they're there to learn.

On the flip side, I've met guys with 30,000+ plus hours who knew (and not "thought", I mean KNEW) without a doubt that they could instruct with the best of them. Tried to tell me that this is how things should be done (oh and felt that instructors shouldn't charge for PGI's) and that I didn't know anything. I told hime when I left that, I may not have your time, but I am the one with the instructor rating, and I've earned it. I'm not saying that I knew it all. He knew more than I when it came to bush flying, and If I was ever paired in the cockpit with him, I'd be the student. They may have tips on how something could be done, but as to how to instruct effectively, they usually don't have a clue. A private pilot could have 7000 hours, but that doesn't mean he could teach a new pilot better than a guy with 1500 with an atpl and a class 1 instructor rating.

The only thing I don't like is the part where you say that they have no real experience. Yeah, they may not have a lot of approaches to mins, or bad weather flying, I agree. But to say it's not experience is wrong. But teaching some dumbass student while getting banged around in the soup with a simulated engine out isn't exactly easy. Most instuctors have to focus on flying the plane, and teaching the student. Hell, I've taken a pilot with 25 - 30 hours in solid IMC with turbulence and wx almost to mins and had to watch him fly and make sure he didn't do anything stupid. If you think that's easy....In a two crew environment, you have a qualified pilot next to you. Just remember that.

P.S. How far did you take your instructor rating? Just curious, that's all. Nothing meant by it.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 9:07 am

KAG...have you run across one or two bad ones? Pilots from the southern climes seem to think that flying from YYZ to ORD is a workout. They have no idea! I used to have problems with Seneca grads. These "gifts" would be a true pain to deal with. But for the most part, this seems to be a thing of the past.
Hey, lots of us used to instruct. Then we learned to fly!

Airtids · Post by **Airtids** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 9:13 am

K.A.G.
I can't really argue with your position on 'Circuit Jockeys' because wherever I taught was also a 702/703 operation so all us instructors also got lots of operational experience to round us out. The instructors who work at my operation are in the same boat. In fact, our instructors all fly charter for a year before they teach -eliminates the whole 'learning from peolple who have no real experience' problem the flight training industry faces (as if a whole lot of operational experience is needed for training PPLs

). I don't know what it would be like to work at a place that was 406 only.
As far as your comments about remote operations, I couldn't agree more. IFR in a non-radar environment is by far the more difficult operation than ILS to ILS on vectors the whole way. We live in a ski resort destination town, so get lots of Netjets etc. pilots coming and going from CYCG (which is reknowned as a tough approach at the best of times). More often than not these guys walk in the door with eyeballs the size of cue-balls after doing 'our' approach. The usual comment goes something along the lines of "Man, we were still twenty miles out and Center said 'Challenger November XXXX, your are cleared for an approach to Castlegar, Contact Castlegar Radio 122.1. Good day' and there we were all by ourselves!!" I just giggle.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 9:16 am

Snag....why are you taking a guy with "25-30" hours into solid IMC?? To prove what....I'm at a loss here, enlighten me, please.
KAG didn't mean this to become an argument about who has the hairier chest....he's just stating a point.
Some pilots cant teach.
Some teachers cant fly.
Some teachers cant teach.
Some pilots cant fly.
These pilots become Transport Canada inspectors. That way they can all teach the rest of us! Any questions?

Snagmaster E · Post by **Snagmaster E** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 9:27 am

Doc,

No I didn't want to get in a pissing match. That's not what I meant. I do agree with him. I've done both Instruction and 702. You said it perfectly with the last part of your post. I guess I didn't word it right.

As for that student, it was the instrument portion of his training, and I feel that it's better for them to learn the basics when they actually can't see the ground. I don't teach them approaches or anthing, since we do PAR approaches. The student just listens to commands. To be realistic, all we're doing is straight and level, turns, climbs and descents, and I do all of the radio work. Most of these guys performed pretty well. If you had to choose between two newly minted group 1 pilots, all things being equal, and one had 20 hours actual to the other's 0, who would you pick?

Nah, I'm competently incompetent. It's the Incompetently incompetent you have to watch out for.

KAG · Post by **KAG** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 9:27 am

Snagmaster E...I taught single engine for 1000 hours and then at Perimeter for another 500 hours (250 of that was bagruns). I wasn’t the most experienced instructor, nor was I green.
I agree Teaching in IMC with a weak student is not easy, nor am I knocking it.
But at the same time, other than getting a really good base of knowledge and your scan/SA sharpened, you still lack real experience. By that I mean decisions based on weather, weight, stress put on you by customers and management. Extra persons showing up drunk or disorderly, black hole approaches and or circling approaches in bad weather. Decisions on real fuel management and alternates, ridiculous crosswinds, runways in poor condition, Icing conditions and thunderstorms. Even dealing with another pilot at your side. I could on for some time.

I’m not knocking instructing time, hell it got me where I am today. Just realize that’s it’s not the be all and end all, and total time is not an indicator of real experience nor readiness for a CPT seat on something alittle more complex.
Also this rant was not a blanket assumption of all instructors, just a precious few that I have come across. It’s those Jackas$’s that give the rest of us a bad name.

DOC, Yup, I have come across a few, and there usually diploma grads from the bigger city’s. Kinda funny but at the same time very annoying.

Cheers.

PS, from my instructing at Perimeter, my feel I learned the most doing the bagrun. It was my first "real industry time" and it was an eye opener.

Switchfoot · Post by **Switchfoot** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 9:32 am

Everyone becomes a student when they're learning something new....regardless of previous flying experience.

Good points and a good post!

Switch.

Snagmaster E · Post by **Snagmaster E** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 9:38 am

King Air Guy wrote: ...But at the same time, other than getting a really good base of knowledge and your scan/SA sharpened, you still lack real experience. By that I mean decisions based on weather, weight, stress put on you by customers and management. Extra persons showing up drunk or disorderly, black hole approaches and or circling approaches in bad weather. Decisions on real fuel management and alternates, ridiculous crosswinds, runways in poor condition. Even dealing with another pilot at your side. I could on for some time.

I’m not knocking instructing time, hell it got me where I am today. Just realize that’s it’s not the be all and end all, and total time is not an indicator of real experience nor readiness for a CPT seat on something alittle more complex....

Again, as I said above, I do agree with you. Just wasn't sure if you were knocking on all of us. Hell, I know I don't know anything, and right now I wanna learn. The day I think I know everything is the day I give up flying.
I can't wait to get some actual experience. Teaching PPL's to 500 people means I'd be a good PP, but that's about it.

Peace.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 9:38 am

The best instructors I've met...and I've known a few....are the guys who are instructing because that's what they WANT to do.

Snagmaster E · Post by **Snagmaster E** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 9:42 am

Here, here!

I work hard at it, but it can't compare to the career guys.

Speaking of Dips, I think I'm going to start a thread on what schools are telling guys who want to start off in aviation as a career. I'd value your input, guys.

Peace.

master switch · Post by **master switch** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 10:17 am

lets not forget about the Dispatchers who think they should be right seat! there's one group that should be banned from the cockpit.

KAG · Post by **KAG** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 10:41 am

dispatchers deserve a seat as much as the rest of us. They have to realise it will take longer to get an upgrade, but that is all.

Cheers.

Snagmaster E · Post by **Snagmaster E** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 10:48 am

master switch wrote:lets not forget about the Dispatchers who think they should be right seat! there's one group that should be banned from the cockpit.

Quote heard from a student (no shit) who just got a Diploma:

"Why wouldn't I get a job? I've got 737 ground training."

Pugster · Post by **Pugster** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 11:31 am

As an IFR instructor I'll be the first to admit that I have limited "real" IFR operational experience.

What blows me away is that some instructors believe that they are better equipped to fly the system than people that have been doing it longer are obviously qualified (that's why they got upgraded I hope).

I don't think you can boil it down to a problem with instructors, however - there's a lot of us that don't have the piss-poor attitudes that you speak about and look forward to the right seat - as an opportunity to start learning again...If I had the chance to meet some of these dumbasses that you speak about they'd get a earful for making it that much more difficult for "experienced" IFR instructors to land that right seat turbine job.

Pugster

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 2:34 pm

I dont know why everyone seems to think there is some great mystery to flying "the system". Compared to VFR, IFR is duck soup. I was down in YYZ a year ago, and went with a PPL friend of mine on a sunny Saturday, on a nice little flight from YOO to YHM. These guys never SHUT UP!! It was talk talk talk, the whole time! Head out the window. Look for this traffic. Look for that traffic. Switch to this freq. Switch to that freq. Scheesh! Cant even pick your nose!! During IFR in the north, we get to read a good book!

master switch · Post by **master switch** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 6:04 pm

so dispatcher time on the ground is equivalent to flight instructing PIC time in an airplane? how many stall/spins do they do behind their desk? how many cross-winds do they practice? how many wierd engine indications do they have to decide how to deal with? how many approaches to minimums do they complete during their dispatch shift?

how does dispatching contribute to their flying and pilot decision making skills?

gimmie a break.

KAG · Post by **KAG** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 6:26 pm

Master switch, dispatching itself doesn't do shit for one's flying ability. But just because someone decides to take a different route doesn't mean they should not get a break. I gather your an instructor, good on ya. You will get time in your logbook as well as your A license long before a desk jockey. But the desk Jockey will and should also get a flying job. They are working for a company with the intent of getting a seat. Why else would they be there???

Cheers.

Right Seat Captain · Post by **Right Seat Captain** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 8:34 pm

King Air Guy wrote:Why else would they be there???

Because they want to dispatch perhaps?

shitdisturber · Post by **shitdisturber** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 10:51 pm

Right Seat Captain wrote:
King Air Guy wrote:Why else would they be there???
Because they want to dispatch perhaps?

It's the awesome power at their fingertips that draws them; "get in your airplane and take that pile of shit; excuse me, politician to such and such a place because I told you to."

KAG · Post by **KAG** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 11:15 pm

Right seat CPT, sure there are career dispatchers, but since masterswitch made reference to dispatcher getting a flying position, I thought I was clear in my response.

56BY111 · Post by **56BY111** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 6:46 pm

Doc wrote:These guys never SHUT UP!! It was talk talk talk, the whole time! Head out the window. Look for this traffic. Look for that traffic. Switch to this freq. Switch to that freq. Scheesh! Cant even pick your nose!! During IFR in the north, we get to read a good book!

That's hilarious!!

booter · Post by **booter** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 9:19 pm

master switch wrote:so dispatcher time on the ground is equivalent to flight instructing PIC time in an airplane? how many stall/spins do they do behind their desk? how many cross-winds do they practice? how many wierd engine indications do they have to decide how to deal with? how many approaches to minimums do they complete during their dispatch shift?

how does dispatching contribute to their flying and pilot decision making skills?

gimmie a break.

Are you FUC@ING MAD? I would love to have a few beer with you so I could drill some sence into that over puffed up head. I would never hire you to do anything more than clean the SH@T off my dogs ass with that attitude. How many approached did you do to minimums when you where instructing. NONE, you good wx flier.

Riding the desk will help you network with real pilots. Not the wannabies you hang with. You must think you are king sh@t doing stalls and spins. I haven't done a spin in years. I don't think the King Air 200 does well in spins. I guess you wouldn't know this flying a single engine bug smasher getting dizzy doing circuits. I hate FU@KING instructors who think they know this industry. Give me a break...

Giver eh! · Post by **Giver eh!** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 12:48 am

Dispatchers have knowledge of the relevant regs and are already employed by the company that they hope to work for. Dispatch is a humbling experience, that builds knowledge for the relevant CARS and the Company Ops Manual.

And its fun!

scotothedoublet · Post by **scotothedoublet** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 7:54 am

I would never hire you to do anything more than clean the SH@T off my dogs ass with that attitude.

So how much does this dog-ass cleaning gig pay? I have rubber gloves and a great attitude.

My job requires that I spend sometime in the operations side of the house. It's great exposure to how things work. It helps me to get in the airplane where I work, but will probably mean jack at future jobs. Different strokes for different folks. Don't be dispatcher-hatin'.[/quote]