Ice Pilots of NWT Series on History Channel this Fall!

[FastFlyBy]

This is the first I've heard of a company upgrading rampies to flight attendants as an intermediate position before the flight line, does anyone else do this?

[Notta Simfalt]

I was wondering if Jim Smith's name would come up. I was pleased to see Joe heaping praise on Smitty. Adam's his dad's son too!

[raven54]

This is the first I've heard of a company upgrading rampies to flight attendants as an intermediate position before the flight line, does anyone else do this?

Yup, the guys next door. And probably the guys down the road as well.

[iflyforpie]

This is the first I've heard of a company upgrading rampies to flight attendants as an intermediate position before the flight line, does anyone else do this?

Yup, the guys next door. And probably the guys down the road as well.

Rampies trying to get on to being F/As.... with a $50,000 CPL in their pocket. Wholly crap...

WWII proved that a couple of uneducated farm boys with 300 hours, taught by a few more uneducated farm boys with 600 hours, could fly these type of aircraft anywhere from the Aleutian Islands to Burma, while under enemy fire. What do you learn by this particular broadening of job description?

[Morav]

Ah but iflyforpie you are incorrect. The Opps manager made it perfectly clear(in the previous episode) that just because you spent $50,000 in flight school doesn't mean you are a pilot. They must first work you hard while paying you very little doing something completely unrelated to flying, and then if the like the cut of your jib Joe will decide whether or not you are a pilot.



Thats the way she goes eh.

[Dust Devil]

Ah but iflyforpie you are incorrect. The Opps manager made it perfectly clear(in the previous episode) that just because you spent $50,000 in flight school doesn't mean you are a pilot. They must first work you hard while paying you very little doing something completely unrelated to flying, and then if the like the cut of your jib Joe will decide whether or not you are a pilot.



Thats the way she goes eh.

I don't think Joe owes the rampies anything. It's his company and if that's the way he wants to run the show then it is totally up to him. No one held a gun to anyone's head to be a rampie.

Lots of jobs start out in the mail room before you become the CEO.

[godsrcrazy]

Were does this i spent $50,000.00 and now you owe me direct enter into the cockpit.

Doctors spend 4 to 7 years going to school working 20 hr day's doing everything from bed pans.
Lawyers spend 4 years in school then internship of photo coping and research.
Nurses spend 4 years in school wiping butts cleaning vomit etc.

But because we are pilots and spent $50,000.00 we shouldn't have to do anything but fly. Dammit thats what we went to school for.

As for iflyforpie comment about 300 hr farm boys. You bet there are some out there then can fly. I have had the mis pleasure of flying with colleague educated 1,000 hr copilots that really should look at a new carrier.

I must say i don't agree with some one passing another for the right seat from the ramp. Unless the person not performing has been sat down and told more then once how they are not pulling there weight. If they are doing that bad of a job then get rid of them rather then just using them for cheap labour.

[The Old Fogducker]

Gee Dust Devil ... that post was spoken like a true capitalist exploiter of "the poor workin' man."

In the emerging socialist society that is "The New Canada" being invented in the Starbuck's Coffee houses of downtown Toronto, fat cats making obscene profits on the bent, sweating backs of cheap labour at the expense of the environment is just not politically correct, nor will it be tolerated by the workers of tomorrow.

I think Joe owes "The People of Canada" a great debt because he has been "allowed" to earn a very handsome margin between revenues and expenses over the last few decades. He should be repaying that moral obligation by giving a hand up to younger aviation types that are just getting by .... struggling to keep body and soul co-located. They are trying their level best to get along eating Kraft Dinner and no-name wieners while he eats the most tender cuts of steak.

They live in condemned hovels, or the less fortunate even take shelter from the elements under bridges in cardboard boxes during the summer months. Meanwhile, Joe lives in his huge house on the hill, burning enough energy that a geiger counter could indicate radiation levels equal to that of the detonation of an atomic weapon. Nobody on the face of the earth really needs to live like that. He should be giving back.

All the mountains of money Joe has made over the years was done purely by limiting the wealth and opportunity of others. After all, there are only so many "breaks" available in Canada, and Buffalo Joe has taken far more than "his share." Just think how many single mothers on welfare that man's wealth could help break the cycle of poverty had he not grabbed too many marbles in the school yard of life.....all due to his unsatisfied insatiable greed, and lust for power & control.

It is the obvious social inequity of the situation which makes any youngster become a supporter of the NDP. Seeing the beautiful earth's resources ground up, thrown into a blast furnace, and made into trinkets for sale in the name of consumerism is a crime against all of humanity. The criminal, Buffalo Joe makes his "dirty money" by flying for those like-minded resource exploiters all over the north. Those like-minded greedy CEOs who have set up shell companies ..... which are just cover stories for receiving "Corporate Welfare Grants" from a corrupt Conservative government, only interested in creating jobs and wealth. How unseemly.

Those young guys & gals who have been lured to the north by the nebulous promise of a flying job are merely lambs being led to an abattoir which has been disguised as an aircraft hangar. Joe owes it to them to upgrade them from the ramp as quickly as possible, and pay them the equivalent of an Air Canada senior 777 Captain ..... after all, its a classic example of the concept of "equal pay for equal work" isn't it? The young kid has a pilot's licence, so does the triple 7 guy ... so what's the difference? He should have been assigned a seniority number the day his licence was issued, that way he would be able to plan his life, right out to age 65 and beyond.

On the topic of seniority, if everyone were issued a seniority number upon licence issue .... and it would only be "fair" to do so .... pilots could choose their working conditions. If they wanted to fly the bush in the typical 180, 185, Beaver, Otter, Twin Otter career progression, more power to 'em ... they could go to work pretty much right away. It would be the responsibility of the slave owner ... errr, I mean company owner, to pay for the moving expenses of the highest seniority pilot that bids for the job.

To be entirely fair to management, the pilot would have to stay with the new company for a minimum of 6 months before bidding another job.

If they didn't want to fly the bush, and were waiting for an airline position, then the pilot wouldn't need to do any flying at all until the opening came up with Air Canada, then as the expression goes ... "Bob's your uncle" ... in you go, essentially straight out of flying school.

Those nice overseas postings that look so good to all of us freezing our dangling parts during the winter ... like Twin Otters in the Maldives for example, would be paid for by the employer too.

Oh, and no "jumping the seniority que" either. None of this "promotion is based upon merit or personal suitability" crud either. After all, those are just words used to cover up the behaviour of a butt-kissing, brown-nosing jerk that seems to get ahead in some organizations that don't understand the concept of "date of hire." There should be an investigation team that travels the country looking for those special jerks that don't subscribe to the "that's not my job" way of thinking. If they want to be creative, let them do it somewhere else in society. The exploiting slave-owner ... err, company owner, gets nothing in the way of suggestions on how to improve his operation without specifically paying for it. A pilot is paid only for being "ready to go if the phone rings" not for giving those bastard manager types access to their valuable thought processes for free.

The oft shouted mantra of the NDP comes to mind as being highly appropriate .... "Make the rich pay!"

After all, the only reason some slob would take on a supervisory role is because of some deep-seated emotional problem ... likely traceable to not being chosen as a hallway monitor or crossing guard in grade 5.....now they are looking to boss somebody around as a form of overcompensation.

The day is nigh when the youth of today's aviation industry will throw off the oxen yoke of the bourgeois capitalist, and take their rightful place ....... by force if required. Wasn't it some highly admired revolutionary like Che Guevera who said "Justice comes from the end of a gun?"

So Buffalo Joe has set up a company, taken financial and physical risks that caused many consecutive sleepless nights during the early days, then spent decades working in the arctic while other companies have tried to undercut him on a daily basis ... every time he turns around there is some other government agency threatening him with noncompliance with some new flavour of the day regulation previously unheard of, big deal..... so what.

Anybody can do it .... right?

The Old Fogducker

[Brewguy]

Really, if it weren't for pilots with dreams of flying big iron floating about in their heads, who would they find to do that ramp work?

Even in a small, remote community there must be something better for non-pilots to do (for the same money). Heck, even being on the dole would probably pay as well, but would be warmer and carry less chance of injury.

Nope, pilots wanting to eventually get that flying job are the only ones desperate enough to take on that kind of crap work.

[Dust Devil]

Gee Dust Devil ... that post was spoken like a true capitalist exploiter of "the poor workin' man."

The Old Fogducker

Your compliment makes me blush

[cyxe]

Lots of jobs start out in the mail room before you become the CEO.

...not the best analogy - a better analogy might be a company, with an opening at say, manager or assistant VP, hiring an MBA grad, with good references and demonstrated ability, to work in the mail room and "work his way up". That would be a more accurate analogy. It doesn't happen.

I can't think of many (any?) other professional careers where you have to rummage around like that first (after spending years of training to do whatever). I realize thats "how its done"...I just don't agree with it.

[canwhitewolf]

one really needs some grit to do this kind of work, some people just cant do it, period

[Dust Devil]

Lots of jobs start out in the mail room before you become the CEO.

...not the best analogy - a better analogy might be a company, with an opening at say, manager or assistant VP, hiring an MBA grad, with good references and demonstrated ability, to work in the mail room and "work his way up". That would be a more accurate analogy. It doesn't happen.

I can't think of many (any?) other professional careers where you have to rummage around like that first (after spending years of training to do whatever). I realize thats "how its done"...I just don't agree with it.

I would hardly compare a Multi IFR CPL the same as a MBA but that debate has raged on here before. Maybe a better analogy would be the fresh med student doesn't jump right into fixing people or a law grad doesn't jump right into a trial right off the bat.

Anyway analogies are a pointless exercise. The only thing that matters is that Joe is the boss and applying to work for him is 100% voluntary. If he wants to hire a pilot to clean toilets that is up to him and if a pilot chooses to accept that job there is nothing to bitch about. I have a lot of respect for guys who start at the bottom and work up and make a career at a place like that.

[cyxe]

I would hardly compare a Multi IFR CPL the same as a MBA but that debate has raged on here before. Maybe a better analogy would be the fresh med student doesn't jump right into fixing people or a law grad doesn't jump right into a trial right off the bat.

Ok point taken, but to carry the pointless analogy further - med students and law students when they're done don't go work reception at a law or med office - they start practicing (articling or as residents), under mentorship...what aviation is doing is taking a newly graduated med student or whatever, and hiring them to take calls and book appointments at the front desk of a med office. IMHO...

I agree with you about Joe calling the shots and share your respect for him. My comment was more general I suppose.

[Kilo-Kilo]

Those young guys & gals ...... are merely lambs being led to an abattoir which has been disguised as an aircraft hangar.

The Old Fogducker

That comment made me laugh out loud for the illustrative image it generates! Now you have all the kids who read this site looking at Wikipedia to find out what an abattoir is.

[Brewguy]

Ok point taken, but to carry the pointless analogy further - med students and law students when they're done don't go work reception at a law or med office - they start practicing (articling or as residents), under mentorship...

Actually, they may very well do both. If the articling job or medical residency doesn't pay enough to cover living plus their student loans, it's time for a stint moonlighting as a cab driver.

[cyxe]

Ok point taken, but to carry the pointless analogy further - med students and law students when they're done don't go work reception at a law or med office - they start practicing (articling or as residents), under mentorship...

Actually, they may very well do both. If the articling job or medical residency doesn't pay enough to cover living plus their student loans, it's time for a stint moonlighting as a cab driver.

Well, new grad law students and med residents start in the 40-50K range, maybe more, so I doubt they'll be driving cabs, but ya the analogy does fall apart there....

[HS-748 2A]

Old Fog - That was beautiful Man!!

One gorgeous piece of writting. I'm jealous.



'48

[Morav]

Some company in the great white north
Letter of Offer

Dear

Air XXX is pleased to offer you a position as a Ramp Attendant, effective 2007, with the company under the following terms and conditions:
Remuneration:
Base pay: $ 1,425.00 per month

Lodging: Single accommodation in the Crew Camp will be provided at a non-cash taxable benefit rate of $ 148.00 per month. The Company will not provide for any other living/accommodation circumstances upon initial hire.
You will be assigned a room and have access to kitchen, washrooms, laundry, recreation and other common areas. Residents of the Crew Camp are responsible for cleaning their own rooms, dishes, pots, utensils and common areas that they use. The Company reserves the right to hire outside local cleaning services and to charge each resident of the Crew Camp a fee monthly if this is required.The Crew Camp Accommodations are smoke, alcohol and pet free.

Vacation: Pilots are entitled to four weeks of vacation per year commencing after the first six months of employment with the Company. Vacations are to be taken in the off season (September through May), generally two weeks in the Fall and two weeks in the winter or spring.Vacation Travel Upon completion of six months employment, Interline Discounts of up to 75% will be available to you for two trips per year on Some airline (Interline Agreements permitting). You will also be entitled to travel on Air XXX scheduled flights and an freight allowance in accordance with current Company policy.

Probation: This position is subject to a six-month probationary period.

Dress Code: Air XXX flight crew are required to wear a white shirt, black or deep navy blue tie, blue flight suit and/or deep navy blue dress pants/short. Cost sharing for flight suits and seasonal clothing is in accordance with current Company Policy. Air XXX standard flight suits, jackets and parkas can be ordered through the Company and your purchase will be payroll deducted.

Supervisor: Your direct Supervisor is our Chief Pilot, Mr. No Name. Questions regarding your duties and the terms of your employment should be directed to him.

Confidentiality Statement: You acknowledge that as a pilot and in other positions you may hold, you will acquire information about certain matters which are confidential to the Company, which information is the exclusive property of the Company. You undertake to treat confidentially all information and not to disclose it to any third party either during your employment, except as may be necessary to perform your duties, or after termination of your employment for any reasons.

Duty Schedule: Pilots are hired for both Scheduled and Charter operations. It is understood that regular on-call duty as requested by the Chief-Pilot is a necessity in the conditions of your employment.

Advancement & Training

Aircraft assignment and associated pay increase increments are earned on merit as deemed appropriate by the Company.

Pilots will be required to sign a promissory note, training bond or other consideration for aircraft type training in accordance with Company Policy in effect at the time. A monthly deduction, from each pay, of $250.00 will be held in trust, interest free, for a period of four (4) years. If you should terminate your employment with Air XXX during this time, the costs pertaining to your training will be deducted from this fund. As well, dismissal from employment with Air XXX for reasons pertaining to deviation of the Pilot Policy Manual, Aircraft SOP’s as well as destruction of airline property will result in the balance of funds being withheld. However, if your employment is continued beyond this term, the full amount will be refunded to you.

Please indicate your acceptance of this offer by signing and returning a copy of this letter by 2007. If no response is received by this date, this offer will become null and void.

Yours truly,

A few missed points...

Expect to work 6 to 7 days a week, with no over time.
You are not guaranteed an upgrade to a flight position.
You will be required to immediately start paying into the training bond.
No benefits.



This is a letter of offer I was given at the beginning of my career after a season of flying a Cessna. I didn't take the job.

I know a few pilots up there and have the utmost respect for what they are doing, and this post is by no means trying to diss them. However, I have absolutely no respect for air operators who knowingly exploit the dreams of a young desperate naive pilot through unsafe working conditions, brutal pay, and little or no time off while dangling a carrot in front of their heads.

[bartonfly88]

[quote="The Old Fogducker"] "while he eats the most tender cuts of steak while living in his huge house on the hill, burning enough energy so as to easily be confused with the detonation of an atomic weapon. "

Joe's house is probably 2100 square feet and he's got a 27 inch tube tv sitting in his living room. Probably eats pretty well though. of course he lives like that by choice

[Slats]

WWII proved that a couple of uneducated farm boys with 300 hours, taught by a few more uneducated farm boys with 600 hours, could fly these type of aircraft anywhere from the Aleutian Islands to Burma, while under enemy fire. What do you learn by this particular broadening of job description?

I certainly would not dare take away anything from the accomplishments of the thousands of heroes from that era, but your post is a little misleading......you forget the thousands of lives lost and aircraft wrecked due to training alone:

Here in Canada-
1906 - RCAF personnel lost due to training accidents in WWII
http://wwii.ca/content-41/world-war-ii/rcaf/

In the Continental US, 1941-1945-
47,462 - total AAF accidents
5533 - fatal accidents
13,621 - fatalities
12,506 - aircraft wrecked
http://www.taphilo.com/history/WWII/Los ... ning.shtml

[The Old Fogducker]

Bartonfly ... With all due respect, I think you may have missed the point of my post.

OFD

[Meatservo]

Ah, Sarcasm and Irony just don't translate all that well in writing, Fog. I had to admit I read your post a couple of times before I realized what you were getting at.

Pie:
Not only did the hastily-trained fellows in WW2 crash a lot more than is generally considered acceptable nowadays, the average grade 10 high school dropout in those days was more literate and certainly more mature and world-wise than your average college graduate these days. Also, most of the guys who were pilots were officers (not all) and there was just a bit more selection criteria there than people make it sound like. Many of the gunners and air engineers (again, not all) were people who washed out of pilot selection, and many grunts and groundlings were people who washed out of aircrew selection of any kind. Personally I think the guys from that era probably had more guts and brains than anyone I know presently. Those "farm boys" were far from uneducated. Don't fool yourself.

Meat

[flyinthebug]

OFD.. Great post! It amazes me how long it takes for some to understand your tongue in cheek humour/sarcasm.

Great show!! Keep em coming!

Fly safe all.

[The Old Fogducker]

Thanks for the compliments FTB, and a Merry Christmas to you.

Yes, its not unlike fly fishing for Arctic Grayling at YSF .... when you choose the right fly, make a nice cast, get the line drifting just right, they just seem to come up from the back-eddy behind the rocks, and slurp that simulated Black Fly down as if its nice big slice of turkey with cranberry sauce on Thanksgiving day.

Since I no longer have a broadcast outlet to use as my own personal political pulpit, I seem to have found an outlet for my creative urges here on AvCanada.

As Jimmy Durante used to say "I got a million of 'em!"

OFD