College of Pilots?

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ZBBYLW
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College of Pilots?

Post by ZBBYLW » Sun Dec 27, 2009 11:13 am

What is the progress on the College of Pilots? The website has nothing new except a new logo (Other then what we the public can not see).

http://collegeofpilots.com/
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Tango01 » Sun Dec 27, 2009 11:31 am

You should have saved that for April Fools!
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by ScudRunner » Sun Dec 27, 2009 12:05 pm

You don't need to go to college to be a pilot :mrgreen:
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Widow » Sun Dec 27, 2009 12:39 pm

Unfortunately, but not surprisingly, it takes time to get all the ducks in a row. The CPPC was incorporated on June 30, 2009. This represents the required Industry Canada approval such that they can make use of the Transport CanadaSafety Partnership Programs. The last meeting of the Board of Directors was in November, and I believe the next will be in the early new year. They continue to meet with individuals and industry groups that will have a stake in the creation of the College, in order to perfect the Code of Ethics and other documentation required before they finally "go public".

People interested in being involved from the ground up are still encouraged to make contact with the group, which I can facilitate if you do not have other means through your affiliation with a union or association which is already involved. With that, I must give warning - not all employers are, or will be, happy about this.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Doc » Sun Dec 27, 2009 2:51 pm

Canadian College of Pilots, time line:

2012......the end of the world.

2013.......they tell us who killed Kennedy.


2525......Hell freezes over.


3512....The formation of the Canadian College of Pilots. In all 17 official languages...

:smt040 :smt040 :smt040 :smt040 :smt040 :smt040 :smt040 :smt040 :smt040 :smt040 :smt040 :smt040 :smt040 :smt040 :smt040 :smt040 :smt040 :smt040 :smt040 :smt040 :smt040 :smt040 :smt040 :smt040 :smt040 :smt040 :smt040 :smt040
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Hot Fuel
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Hot Fuel » Sun Dec 27, 2009 5:05 pm

Widow said
With that, I must give warning - not all employers are, or will be, happy about this.
Conversely you will find not all employees will be happy, everybody’s agendas are different. As always, the few will lead the masses and decide whats best for them...and then the real whining starts.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Spokes » Sun Dec 27, 2009 5:15 pm

Hmmm, an informal poll here on AvCanada showed overwhelming support for this. Seems like people really do just like to bitch about something-anything.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Doc » Sun Dec 27, 2009 6:12 pm

Hot Fuel wrote:Widow said
With that, I must give warning - not all employers are, or will be, happy about this.
Conversely you will find not all employees will be happy, everybody’s agendas are different. As always, the few will lead the masses and decide whats best for them...and then the real whining starts.
Hot Fuel, I fear a "Contrail" like situation, as you do, a few governing the many. The small companies being left out in the cold. Certain companies boycotting member pilots. Usually, pilots can't agree on how they want their eggs cooked......
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by teacher » Sun Dec 27, 2009 6:31 pm

Any organization striving for the improving og working conditions has my blessing and support. If anyone thinks the status quo is good enough needs their heads examined or is just a sucker for pain.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by ajet32 » Mon Dec 28, 2009 5:11 am

I too fear a "Contrail" type situation where there will be a few limited jobs for the low timer. What we have now isn't perfect but more regulation is not the answer. The College of Physicians and that sort sort of thing all regulate professionals. For pilots to obtain that status will require us to adhere to a much higher entry level education level. Is that what the majority wants. I often get the feeling it is actually the opposite.
Just my 2 cents.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by ZBBYLW » Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:47 am

ajet32 wrote:I too fear a "Contrail" type situation where there will be a few limited jobs for the low timer. What we have now isn't perfect but more regulation is not the answer. The College of Physicians and that sort sort of thing all regulate professionals. For pilots to obtain that status will require us to adhere to a much higher entry level education level. Is that what the majority wants. I often get the feeling it is actually the opposite.
Just my 2 cents.
A higher standard is EXACTLY what I want and I feel this industry needs! I did not go the old flight school route and just get my bare minimums to get my CPL I went further then this to better myself and my resume. If we make this profession more challenging to get into it would limit the amount of new CPL pilots in the market -which is "A GOOD THING".

It's simple supply and demand.

More demand (more jobs) or less supply of pilots and we can see positive changes in the industry. These would include working conditions, lifestyle, pay etc... As companies would be looking for pilots, and trying to retain them (what a concept!). The companies that treat their employees like crap would have a hard time retaining them as those pilots would rather go to company B that pays their people better.

Less demand (this economic down turn comes to mind) or too much supply of whor...err pilots then pilots try and back stab each other for that "golden multi-PIC, multi-turbine, PIC" job and will take what ever it takes to take that job (pay, working conditions, etc...) just to build time, because let's face it no one wants to wait on the ramp for 2-3 years or work as an instructor (except those that want to stay as instructors) for a long period of time when they can get paid dirt right now, get forced to cut back on fuel or go when the weather is not right and when other pilots say no to the flight BUT get to fly that clapped out old Navajo or Islander and put that time in the log book.

Basically what we need to do is protect pilots from ourselfs. I think this College with a strict code of ethics is a good start.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Doc » Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:55 am

ZBBYLW wrote:
ajet32 wrote:I too fear a "Contrail" type situation where there will be a few limited jobs for the low timer. What we have now isn't perfect but more regulation is not the answer. The College of Physicians and that sort sort of thing all regulate professionals. For pilots to obtain that status will require us to adhere to a much higher entry level education level. Is that what the majority wants. I often get the feeling it is actually the opposite.
Just my 2 cents.
A higher standard is EXACTLY what I want and I feel this industry needs! I did not go the old flight school route and just get my bare minimums to get my CPL I went further then this to better myself and my resume. If we make this profession more challenging to get into it would limit the amount of new CPL pilots in the market -which is "A GOOD THING".
.
So, that would make you a better pilot, or person, than the folks who went "the old flight school route"? That pretty much sums up what you've just said. Would I read that as you took more than the "bare" minimum time to complete your training? I'm confused. I'm not too bright you see. I went the "old flying school" route.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Tango01 » Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:14 am

What most of us need to realize is that this will likely never change. In fact, I have a feeling it will get worse. When flight schools are flat out lying to people, saying that there is a shortage of pilots or some crap like that just to make a buck, you know that we are not a "socially responsible" society. I guess capitalism works every angle. We are pumping out lots of pilots into an crippling industry that is suffering from a surplus of workers. The supply and demand rule holds true here. On top of that, we have pilots working for free, undercutting each other, paying for type ratings and who knows what else. Operators are loving it. We are in fact, our worst enemies.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Cat Driver » Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:31 am

Education is obviously a desirable goal for everyone, however there are many ways to educate ones self.

I fail to see why learning to fly using the " old flight school route " is not a very viable route to take, I went that route with very little formal education and did O.K. as a pilot.

Conversely I have had F.O.'s who went the college route who I wouldn't let operate my lawnmower.

If the college route is so good how did those duds get through?
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Tango01 » Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:37 am

Cat Driver wrote:Education is obviously a desirable goal for everyone, however there are many ways to educate ones self.

I fail to see why learning to fly using the " old flight school route " is not a very viable route to take, I went that route with very little formal education and did O.K. as a pilot.

Conversely I have had F.O.'s who went the college route who I wouldn't let operate my lawnmower.

If the college route is so good how did those duds get through?

Its not and you are absolutely right on that. If you want an education, get one outside of aviation, maybe engineering or a trade, that way you have something solid to fall back on, in case you lose your medical or want an out.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Widow » Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:43 am

I am not involved with the College, other than as an advocate of the initiative. While I'm kept somewhat in the loop, I do not know what decisions they are making ...

That said, there is definitely one thing that is lacking in most CPL training right now, and which I believe would influence future decisions no matter what route the new CPL takes to build hours ... Pilots Stay Safe: Know Your Rights. I sincerely hope that an initiative of the College will be to ensure all new CPLs are well versed in the information found in that thread.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by ZBBYLW » Mon Dec 28, 2009 12:06 pm

Doc wrote:
ZBBYLW wrote:
ajet32 wrote:I too fear a "Contrail" type situation where there will be a few limited jobs for the low timer. What we have now isn't perfect but more regulation is not the answer. The College of Physicians and that sort sort of thing all regulate professionals. For pilots to obtain that status will require us to adhere to a much higher entry level education level. Is that what the majority wants. I often get the feeling it is actually the opposite.
Just my 2 cents.
A higher standard is EXACTLY what I want and I feel this industry needs! I did not go the old flight school route and just get my bare minimums to get my CPL I went further then this to better myself and my resume. If we make this profession more challenging to get into it would limit the amount of new CPL pilots in the market -which is "A GOOD THING".
.
So, that would make you a better pilot, or person, than the folks who went "the old flight school route"? That pretty much sums up what you've just said. Would I read that as you took more than the "bare" minimum time to complete your training? I'm confused. I'm not too bright you see. I went the "old flying school" route.
The whole reason why I think we need to do more training, more exams etc... Is more to do with making it a more challenging route. We need to limit the people coming in. In my opinion the CPL exam is WAY to easy to pass and should be done in stages (so the examiner can test more of a candidates than just 1 flight test. Doctors do not get examed on whether they pass 1 written exam and treat one patient correctly. It takes alot more then that to become a doctor, and should take alot more then that to become a CPL.

By the time I had my CPL Group 1 IFR done I had about 300 hours. I did not finnish in that "bare" minimum times but why?

This was not because as you are hinting at I was a below average pilot. Infact I have done well on most of my flight tests to date (though I feel they were WAY to easy.) While I was going to school for Buisness Admin (not related to aviation I know but c'est la vie). I solo'ed in 6 (not common these days), I got over 90% on my PPL flt test, then I did about 30-40 hours flying a Citabria around doing aerobatics. Did alot of cross countries, some prep for my CPL and passing that again over 90% before the needed 200 hours for the license. Then I did more Citabria flying, some home built flying and come Ultra-Light Flying (Not counted in my totals) doing more aerobatics, flying to beaches, sand bars and back country strips. I was flying for the fun of it. During this I did all of my Multi-IFR (90% and above again). By the time I was done I had more time then needed for bare minimums sure but what I had I completed? First I had fun, I enjoy flying I got to enjoy picknics on sand bars or beaches, spending alot of some flights upside down, landing some places that where not meant for aeroplanes to go. I learned alot as well, I got to really see why a soft field take off is important (note: a grass runway doesnt count) I have done long flights to places where I have never been before (back then no GPS) and it was enjoyable. I did not just fly to get 200 hours so I can have my CPL. I have also flown quiet poor at times and failed a ride. I partialled my Multi-Ride (85%) because on my clean stall I did not let the nose drop, I recovered before that. It's something I have to live with.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by jeta1 » Mon Dec 28, 2009 4:22 pm

:|
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by xsbank » Mon Dec 28, 2009 4:56 pm

"College" is obviously scaring a whole lot of people on this site who are unaware of what it means:

" More broadly, it can be the name of any group of colleagues, for example, an electoral college, a College of Arms or the College of Cardinals. Originally, it meant a group of persons living together, under a common set of rules (con- = "together" + leg- = "law" or lego = "I choose"); indeed, some colleges call their members "fellows".

I doubt very much if a "College of Pilots" will be based upon formal education. The reason pilots wear uniforms is because most of them are unlikely to be able to dress themselves otherwise. "White on top, blue below, socks on the feet, nowhere else."

Stop panicking, think about the concept, not the terminology. :rolleyes:
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Cat Driver » Mon Dec 28, 2009 5:08 pm

As long as they keep their goals focused and simple it really does not matter what they call it.

The biggest fear I have is if there is not an open transparent method of selecting those in management of the group it can and probably will turn into another circle jerk for those who seek positions of power over performance.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by mattedfred » Mon Dec 28, 2009 5:15 pm

jeta1 wrote:As long as TC remains in charge of pilot licensing, the College wont fly. And if and when the college does fly, I can only see the creation of different claases of pilots - namely - those with a degree and those without. Pilots do not need to go to college, and that's a fact. Given that fact, I can only see the College as a big mess on the horizon. I hope TC retains pilot licensing.

i believe the only reason that the college was created was because TC is planning to get out of licensing. i think a few proactive pilot groups decided to get ahead of the issue so it wasn't passed off onto the employer.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by ScudRunner » Mon Dec 28, 2009 5:25 pm

I posted this in a thread in the flight training forum.....
Too improve the industry and attract the best a brightest you need to make it far more difficult to get a commercial pilots licence. Currently you just need money and about a year to get your licence, other professions that people like to compare being a pilot to such as doctor and lawyer which makes me laugh have far tougher entrance requirements just to try and start on the road to that profession .

I started a thread about such things awhile back in the employment forum.

Lawyer - 4 year degree plus the LSAT just to start.
Doctor - MCAT and a Science based degree to start.
Pilot - Money, 1 year and basic motor and reasoning skills.

So what should happen is to get into a CPL program or start your Commercial training we need a MCAT or LSAT type entrance exam. Three exam sittings a year you fail well tough cookie you can try again in four months , make it 200 questions long give them 3 hours and a pass of 90%.

What this will do is weed out the slackers and making it more difficult to become a pilot, thus creating fewer pilots for the market and driving wages up.


And first of all do you really think any school will let you dangle a poster up in their school saying that, thats just not good for business.
this is just a simple overview and I am sure that the puppy mills of aviation colleges would oppose this. A further step would be an immediate stop to subsidized pilot colleges. Limiting the mass hoard of barely literate town folk from polluting the pilot gene pool is the only way to make this happen.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by jeta1 » Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:18 pm

:|
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Hot Fuel » Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:21 pm

Hmmm, an informal poll here on AvCanada showed overwhelming support for this. Seems like people really do just like to bitch about something-anything.
I didn't take the time to find the poll you referenced but if memory serves me there was something like 150 votes in total, even if they all voted for this initiative one could hardly call those results overwhelming.

What percentage would 150 be relative to the number of licensed commercial pilots working or potentially affected by this group of elitists?
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by ajet32 » Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:41 pm

"150" Votes
Well between; ACPA, ALPA, WJPA, SWPA, and others there are over 6000 thousand professional pilots. This group already have representative organizations that deal with contracts, working conditions, safety and standards and have representatives sitting on formal committees dealing with duty hours and SMS .

At the risk of thread hijacking just what is this proposed college supposed to do, and how will it benefit a professional who already is a member of any of the above mentioned groups.
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