College of Pilots?

[Widow]

If some of the people who are starting this group are employees of aviation companies who are part of being responsible for the need to bring about changes, what protection do they have from losing their jobs?

In reality, there is likely no protection to prevent job loss for involvement in the initiative. I do not know if the same can be said for helping to fight the loss in the courts - unjust dismissal.

Pilots who work for employers that would object to the extent of firing for participation, are likely the exact pilots who ultimately need the protection that the CPPC envisages.

But, assuming that the CPPC acquires the 50% membership of affected stakeholders - which doesn't seem far off considering they've got the majors on board already - Transport Canada approval will come. Then it won't matter what your employer thinks.

In the meantime, I agree that it may be a perilous path for someone who works for an "objecting" employer.

But some people are very brave.

[Cat Driver]

Quote:

" Transport Canada approval will come. "

Why do you need the approval of the body who is supposed to ensure fair and just working conditions in the industry?

If Transport approval is not forthcoming does that mean the idea is dead in the water?

I hope you will cut me some slack here for appearing to be ignorant of the way these things work.

[flyinthebug]

Quote:

" Transport Canada approval will come. "

Why do you need the approval of the body who is supposed to ensure fair and just working conditions in the industry?

If Transport approval is not forthcoming does that mean the idea is dead in the water?

I hope you will cut me some slack here for appearing to be ignorant of the way these things work.

Cat in simple terms..You can write the best SOP`s ever written, but without TC approval, they are just another useless set of SOPs. This is no different im sure.

[angry inch]

Are any of the "College" members currently working in the 703 sector of Canadian aviation? In particular, VFR ops??

[jeta1]

deleted

[Doc]

Quote:

" Transport Canada approval will come. "

Why do you need the approval of the body who is supposed to ensure fair and just working conditions in the industry?

If Transport approval is not forthcoming does that mean the idea is dead in the water?

I hope you will cut me some slack here for appearing to be ignorant of the way these things work.

Cat in simple terms..You can write the best SOP`s ever written, but without TC approval, they are just another useless set of SOPs. This is no different im sure.

FTB....this should have nothing to do with stuff like SOP's etc. Therefore, nothing to do with TC. I wouldn't even be looking for TC's blessings. Look at the great help (read protection from AH companies) TC has already proven themselves utterly useless at? Any organization by and for pilots should, IMHO at least, be far removed from TC.

[Widow]

Are any of the "College" members currently working in the 703 sector of Canadian aviation? In particular, VFR ops??

Yes.

Holbrook is still on the Board.

To be an association, TC approval is not required - Industry Canada approval is required, and has been acquired. But if the College is to take on oversight of working pilots, they will have to prove to Transport Canada that they are capable of doing so. Of course TC approval will be required.

[flyinthebug]

Quote:

" Transport Canada approval will come. "

Why do you need the approval of the body who is supposed to ensure fair and just working conditions in the industry?

If Transport approval is not forthcoming does that mean the idea is dead in the water?

I hope you will cut me some slack here for appearing to be ignorant of the way these things work.

Cat in simple terms..You can write the best SOP`s ever written, but without TC approval, they are just another useless set of SOPs. This is no different im sure.

FTB....this should have nothing to do with stuff like SOP's etc. Therefore, nothing to do with TC. I wouldn't even be looking for TC's blessings. Look at the great help (read protection from AH companies) TC has already proven themselves utterly useless at? Any organization by and for pilots should, IMHO at least, be far removed from TC.

I dont disagree at all Doc. But as widow pointed out, they do require Industry Canada approval to even be recognized. Ultimately leading to TC approval. I know its not the idea many of us had about a "college" but hopefully in time we`ll get something figured out.


Just as a sidenote...I am anti-union. I do however believe that a college could work.. much like it does for Doctors, Teachers etc. Isnt the ultimate goal to be recognized as professionals and subsequently paid fairly for it?.

[flyinthebug]

Are any of the "College" members currently working in the 703 sector of Canadian aviation? In particular, VFR ops??

Yes.

Holbrook is still on the Board.

To be an association, TC approval is not required - Industry Canada approval is required, and has been acquired. But if the College is to take on oversight of working pilots, they will have to prove to Transport Canada that they are capable of doing so. Of course TC approval will be required.

Like I said Cat..without TC approval it wont "fly" whether it be SOPs or a pilots college...At least not as its being set up (based on the limited info I have about it). They do seem to be pursuing more of a union then a college. Thats why TC will have oversight of it. To be honest, this is not at all the vision *I* personally had for a college and it would appear maybe im not the only one?.

[xsbank]

I'm wondering why there are so many that are paranoid about the operation of a college. Surely, you can see the future of our profession and to me it looks dim. Not only are we currently enduring poor wages, poor working conditions, poor benefits (if any), non-existent pensions; we also face the spectre of security morons ruining our industry despite anything we do. We have fly-by-night operators, antique equipment, serious resistance to change, terrible safety records, moronic regulators, ad nauseum, yet when somebody takes the talk out of the bar and actually attempts to do something about it, we start mooing and bleating like a herd of cattle in a feed lot and speculate wildly about how this couldn't possibly work, it can only ruin our profession!

Think about it. We need help, we are totally incapable of working together, we need organization!!!

[AEROBAT]

I would far rather see a college of Canadian pilots oversee Canadian aviation than ICAO.

[Widow]

They do seem to be pursuing more of a union then a college. Thats why TC will have oversight of it. To be honest, this is not at all the vision *I* personally had for a college and it would appear maybe im not the only one?

In what way has the information you have led you to believe it is more of a union direction that a college direction? Is Transport Canada approval required to have a union? As far as I know, it is only Industry Canada approval - which is also required for any type of corporation, including professional colleges.

It doesn't matter what industry you work in, any professional College that is to take over accreditation would have to have approval from the Ministry that oversees the industry - in this case Transport. The Safety Partnership Program would seem to be the perfect drawing for getting approval.

[flyinthebug]

Thank you for the info widow. It does shed some light.

XS.. I dont think its whining so much as its a debate about "implementation".. not unlike the debate over SMS implementation. Most agree SMS and a "College" are both good ideas, but few can agree on how to implement either. I have said and continue to say that we do need some form of association or college to oversee the industry from "our" perspectives and be our watch dog. We all agree we want improved working conditions, better benefits, better wages espically in 703/704, pensions, etc etc. Its how to go about it that is up for debate.

These gentlemen have now stepped up and taken the reins. Bravo! Ill just sit back and watch for awhile before I make any further comments.

Fly safe.

[Cat Driver]

xsbank and all the rest of you I am all for a group in aviation that will bring the lower sector of aviation into this century working and safety wise instead of remaining where it is now just barely out of the stone age.

Do not take my questions as being against forming a new group to try and improve aviation.

I am only pointing out the pitfalls of seeking alliance with the status quo that are responsible for the situation as it now is.

Think what you want about me and my attitude but remember I have been there for a long time and when I was part of aviation I did actually do some very positive things to try and improve the industry and there is a verifiable record of it because I did it in the legal system at great cost to myself in time money and loss of employment.....employment I didn't want by the way which was the reason I did what I did.

Be careful and try and keep things simple using existing rules and be careful of who you align yourself with ...remember that old saying " if you lie down with dogs you get fleas."

NOTE::

In no way am I referring to the present group who are forming this college as I have zero knowledge of them nor who they are.

My comments are meant to be general and hopefully helpful.

[Widow]

I am only pointing out the pitfalls of seeking alliance with the status quo that are responsible for the situation as it now is.

Approval from TC is not the same as alliance. As everyone knows

[Cat Driver]

widow forgive me but I just do not see why you need approval from T.C. to form an independent group of people to ensure compliance to existing laws within said group and to set a safety standard under which the group must operate.

I would be very hard pressed to think of anything T.C. does for me that would compel me to ask for their approval, of course there exists the possibility that I have it all wrong and just don't understand how the system works.

It was not my intent to derail this thread so this will be my last comment in this thread.

[Widow]

widow forgive me but I just do not see why you need approval from T.C. to form an independent group of people to ensure compliance to existing laws within said group and to set a safety standard under which the group must operate.

You don't. But you do need TC approval to take over licencing, or any other aspect of oversight duties.

[ajet32]

I keep seeing it written that the big players are on board. Hmm not to sure about that . ALPA represents at least 8 maybe more pilot groups in this country, anyone heard anything from their MEC on this College. The CFPA made some rather outrageous statements about ACPA members a few weeks back. I am not an ACPA member but I wouldn't be pulling for anyone from the CFPA to be representing me anytime soon.

Just my 2 cents .

[xsbank]

I don't mean to take personal potshots, in fact I apologize if it seems that way but there seems to be so much trepidation here about a good idea. And for us on this site, that's all it is right now, an idea.

Unions have one single purpose in life, same as a corner store, to make money. Instead of selling milk or beer they sell working conditions and worker's rights. I really don't think that this is the purpose of the college. I could see, if it is successful, paying administrators or some sort of experts out of the dues that the members would pay and I can see some money going towards a defence fund or legal protection of some kind, maybe even a pension scheme - who knows?

As far as licensing goes, the college would not have to bother with that part of the program as it would set its own 'barriers' like an exam equivalent to the bar exam the lawyers have to write to be admitted to "the bar." Don't all get too excited, its not that kind of bar. The exam may not have to be written, perhaps it would be a flight test in a sim. - like I said, who knows? Maybe the test would be grandfathered for high-timers and mandatory for beginners? A 10,000 hour Beaver pilot has different experiences and expectations than a Falcon pilot likely has, but low-timers are still ours to mould.

Licensing could be assimilated when the college was mature enough or ready to take on that role. Even the CBAA, which does licensing for business jets, has been heavily criticized for not getting it right yet - we would have to do better.

Let's hear some comments that are not negative and try and toss around some ideas that might inspire "the fellows" to a successful and interesting conclusion. Getting any 2 pilots to agree on something is difficult at best, let alone organizing an entire country. We need to be positive and help out.

[Doc]

As far as licensing goes, the college would not have to bother with that part of the program as it would set its own 'barriers' like an exam equivalent to the bar exam the lawyers have to write to be admitted to "the bar."
Licensing could be assimilated when the college was mature enough or ready to take on that role. Even the CBAA, which does licensing for business jets, has been heavily criticized for not getting it right yet - we would have to do better.

What ARE you folks smoking?? Where can I get some.
"an exam equivalent to the bar exam...."
Are you frikken nuts? I expect to see a formation of pigs fly past my window at any moment....