College of Pilots?

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GTODD
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by GTODD »

If there is even the slightest chance that the creation of this college would lead to a situation where Commercial Pilots who do not have a degree or diploma from a certain university will no longer be eligible for a large number of jobs, then I am definitely opposed to this idea.

For the many reasons already stated by people like Jeta1, I think it would be smart for anyone who is not a graduate of a school like Seneca to oppose the creation of this college.

For the record I am in favour of improving working conditions, but not at the cost of ruining the careers or preventing the advancement of colleagues of mine in this industry who have worked very hard to be successful.
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Dust Devil
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Dust Devil »

Widow wrote:
As for employers who wouldn't appreciate an employees early involvement, these are likely the same employers who don't appreciate motions toward unions or associations of any kind. Everyone has their own opinion of these types of employers.
Ya know that is pretty offensive. What I read out of that is if you don't support unions you are a dirt bag. I was a supporter of your mission and in a way I still am if that mission is trying to make the industry better. But I gotta say I can't support the methods.

The amount of trashing of employers around here is getting out of hand. People make it out like we are up in some ivory tower out there plotting the newest means of killing kittens. A lot of us are just trying to raise or families and get by as well.

There was a comment in another thread about Buffalo Joe living in a 2100 square foot house. Well my place is just over 800 square feet. I guess when this union comes into place they will try forcing me into a shoe box in a closet somewhere.

This isn't about making the industry better it's about socializing the industry.
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scopiton
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by scopiton »

If some of the people who are starting this group are employees of aviation companies who are part of being responsible for the need to bring about changes, what protection do they have from losing their jobs?
cat,
such a college for instance could help to KNOW your rights as an employee, and with all the respect I owe you, i'm really surprised you don't even know the most important article of the canadian labor code :
employee Division I
Basic Freedoms

Employee freedoms
8. (1) Every employee is free to join the trade union of their choice and to participate in its lawful activities.
http://lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/L-2/page- ... l_I-gb:l_I

this gives a pretty good example of the work that has to be done concerning pilots.
yes you can as an individual manage to obtain better working condition than others, but your personal working conditions will get worse as long as other people with the same qualifications will accept your job for less. Everybody here is always complaining about that, and this college is a chance to have that change.
creating a college to protect and represent pilots' interests in 703/704 and 702 is a very good idea.
as widow said "if" TC recognizes the legitimacy of such an organization, it can have more weights toward employers.
with this representation, employers and this college could agree about a convention insuring minimum wages, respect of duty times regulations, and benefits.
for having worked under a convention in a different industry it worked and I saw a real change within 1 year. suddenly we didn't have to bargain our salary, everybody had a minimum wage which was fair. Over-time had to be discussed but in aviation you have duty time.
the only way to make it work - if TC gives its approval to this organization hence giving this organization more power - is to put those companies' OC in std-by as long as necessary for them to get reorganized to offer decent working conditions.
the target is not pilots and their capabilities to succeed a written exam, but the target should be to find an agreement with companies in order to protect their business and customers : to have pilots qualified for their job, happy to do it and willing to stay. as an employer it's not rocket science, if you want your employees to be loyal, treat them fairly.
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mcrit
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by mcrit »

GTODD wrote:For the record I am in favour of improving working conditions
That is not what a College is about. A a College is not a union. A College decides who can and who can not do certain things. The College of Physicians and Surgeons decides who can and can't be a doctor. They decide what good medical practice is and administer punishments to doctors that don't meet that standard. The College doesn't do one damned thing to sort out working conditions for doctors; that task is left to the Ontario (or other provincial) Medical Association (which is the doctor's union).
In short, a College is a bureaucracy that will regulate how pilots do their job and punish pilots that don't conform. It will not go to bat for your working conditions. That is what a union is for.
The College may or may not be a good thing for pilots, depending on who sits on the board of governors. If the college does come into being it will take an act of federal parliament, that act will spell out the make up of the board of governors. If that board is made up of qualified pilots elected by the members of the college, then I think that the college will be a good thing. If on the other hand that board is made up of ATAC and government appointees, then it would be a very bad thing for pilots.
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Doc
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Doc »

Lets say I'm Company W
I want pilots to pay me thousands of dollars for a job.
Still with me?
I have pilots lined up around the block, ready and willing to pay me for a job.
I can even get them to pay for their next upgrade. The cheques are just flowing in.
Some clown comes in here and tells me I can no longer do that.
Or else.
Or else what? Next girl in line has her cheque book open. Guy behind her? Same story. Another cheque book. The beat goes on.

It's a cute idea. Really. Just like the College of Physicians and Surgeons.
Or, the Ontario College of Nurses. Or, the Ontario College of Teachers.

But we aren't Physicians. We ain't surgeons. We isn't nurses, or teachers. We're pilots. And we eat our young. We'll cheat, lie, connive and do whatever it takes to get in that line, with that cheque book, to pay that company, who will readily and always treat us like crap, deny our vacation requests, freeze our wages, doc our sick pay, because we're pilots.
It'll never fly, Wilbur.
I know it won't, Orville.
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Dust Devil
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Dust Devil »

mcrit wrote:
GTODD wrote:For the record I am in favour of improving working conditions
That is not what a College is about. A a College is not a union. A College decides who can and who can not do certain things. The College of Physicians and Surgeons decides who can and can't be a doctor. They decide what good medical practice is and administer punishments to doctors that don't meet that standard. The College doesn't do one damned thing to sort out working conditions for doctors; that task is left to the Ontario (or other provincial) Medical Association (which is the doctor's union).
In short, a College is a bureaucracy that will regulate how pilots do their job and punish pilots that don't conform. It will not go to bat for your working conditions. That is what a union is for.
The College may or may not be a good thing for pilots, depending on who sits on the board of governors. If the college does come into being it will take an act of federal parliament, that act will spell out the make up of the board of governors. If that board is made up of qualified pilots elected by the members of the college, then I think that the college will be a good thing. If on the other hand that board is made up of ATAC and government appointees, then it would be a very bad thing for pilots.
The problem is it has been suggested union dollars are bank rolling this little project. If that is the case then the union is in control. Follow the money and it will lead the the person driving.
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scopiton
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by scopiton »

We'll cheat, lie, connive and do whatever it takes to get in that line, with that cheque book, to pay that company, who will readily and always treat us like crap, deny our vacation requests, freeze our wages, doc our sick pay, because we're pilots.
and what if this college makes it illegal ? would it still useless ?
the point is here, to draw lines and have them respected.
being a pilot is not a fate. It's a profession and like any other profession, it can be regulated.
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Doc
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Doc »

scopiton wrote:
We'll cheat, lie, connive and do whatever it takes to get in that line, with that cheque book, to pay that company, who will readily and always treat us like crap, deny our vacation requests, freeze our wages, doc our sick pay, because we're pilots.
and what if this college makes it illegal ? would it still useless ?
the point is here, to draw lines and have them respected.
Could be wrong here, but does it not take an act of Parliament or something of that nature to make something "illegal"?
Would it be a criminal code offense? Because a bunch of chaps sitting in a room with the word "College" on the door don't happen to agree with the practice?

Keep dreaming that dream.
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scopiton
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by scopiton »

Keep dreaming that dream.
keep fighting for a dream made things happen, but I could be wrong too.
creating a college could be a first step to legal representation.
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N181CS
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by N181CS »

"If there is even the slightest chance that the creation of this college would lead to a situation where Commercial Pilots who do not have a degree or diploma from a certain university will no longer be eligible for a large number of jobs, then I am definitely opposed to this idea."
I have to agree with this statement, what would happen to the ones who have no college or university education? Would this become mandatory for future and current pilots? Would there be a cut off at a certain hour or licence mark and grandfather people..................
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scopiton
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by scopiton »

N181CS wrote:
"If there is even the slightest chance that the creation of this college would lead to a situation where Commercial Pilots who do not have a degree or diploma from a certain university will no longer be eligible for a large number of jobs, then I am definitely opposed to this idea."
I have to agree with this statement, what would happen to the ones who have no college or university education? Would this become mandatory for future and current pilots? Would there be a cut off at a certain hour or licence mark and grandfather people..................
agree witih you too, that's why the target should be employers and find an agreement, but not limitating applicants for a commercial license.
then a pan-canadian pilot association would be more appropriate.
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george sugar
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by george sugar »

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Last edited by george sugar on Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
xsbank
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by xsbank »

Where did you guys get the weird idea that there is a university or college certificate required in order to join this "college?"
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toelessjoe
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by toelessjoe »

Cat Driver wrote:Education is obviously a desirable goal for everyone, however there are many ways to educate ones self.

I fail to see why learning to fly using the " old flight school route " is not a very viable route to take, I went that route with very little formal education and did O.K. as a pilot.

Conversely I have had F.O.'s who went the college route who I wouldn't let operate my lawnmower.

If the college route is so good how did those duds get through?

+1 :mrgreen:
I done gooder than some ofthem there smart fellers too!
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armchair
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by armchair »

mcrit wrote:That is not what a College is about. A a College is not a union. A College decides who can and who can not do certain things. The College of Physicians and Surgeons decides who can and can't be a doctor. They decide what good medical practice is and administer punishments to doctors that don't meet that standard. The College doesn't do one damned thing to sort out working conditions for doctors; that task is left to the Ontario (or other provincial) Medical Association (which is the doctor's union).
In short, a College is a bureaucracy that will regulate how pilots do their job and punish pilots that don't conform. It will not go to bat for your working conditions. That is what a union is for.
The College may or may not be a good thing for pilots, depending on who sits on the board of governors. If the college does come into being it will take an act of federal parliament, that act will spell out the make up of the board of governors. If that board is made up of qualified pilots elected by the members of the college, then I think that the college will be a good thing. If on the other hand that board is made up of ATAC and government appointees, then it would be a very bad thing for pilots.
+1. Wait till all commercial pilots get an extra $100 automatically tagged onto their existing TC licensing/medical processing fee for their "College" membership... then the question on voluntary membership will have been resolved, will it? Oh and those nasty collection agencies too will get into the frey!! We'll see how all "collegiate" we are after that!
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flyinthebug
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by flyinthebug »

xsbank wrote:Where did you guys get the weird idea that there is a university or college certificate required in order to join this "college?"
I was wondering the same thing?? Where did anyone ever say you would require a college or university degree, in order to join the "college"? I dont think anyone suggested that? Lets not confuse a college with a college ;)

Doc..I dont agree with you at all on this one. A College, set up and run properly could do wonders for the industry. Most pilots consider ourselves to be professionals and therefore a professional "association" would be appropriate. Like i said, Im just going to sit back and see how this develops before making any decisions on it. I do think that it would need support from people with your experience and dedication to the industry. Dont be so quick to shoot it down, at least until all the facts are in. For clarity, im seeking a college much like the docs, nurses, teachers etc have. NOT a union! Unions are for the weak and lazy and that will NEVER change. A college of professionals is a completely different animal.

Fly safe all.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by teacher »

People wouldn't be lining up to pay employers for jobs or work for sub standard (below fee guide) wages if it meant they would not be able to hold their license anymore (or got violated be the CPPC). The doctor, dentist and law Colleges all have a sliding scale of punishments for not adhering the rules. They can range from a letter to loss of license. This would be the only way to reign in our self destructive ways.

I also severely doubt that College or University will be required considering the nature of our industry in Canada.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by ajet32 »

The thing that scares me is talk of this group being responsible for licencing. Where in the ICAO Annex does it absolve the regulator of that, I am standing ready to be corrected. Our licence is barely recognized in the EU (unless you have 1500 hours PIC on large jet or turboprop you write 14 exams). Now do we want to degrade it more. Improving the standard is a great idea if it is recognized outside of Canada.
A large number of Canadian pilots work offshore and many use their Canadian ICAO Lic as the basis for a foreign validation.
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by Doc »

teacher wrote:People wouldn't be lining up to pay employers for jobs or work for sub standard (below fee guide) wages if it meant they would not be able to hold their license anymore (or got violated be the CPPC).
And, just who will grant the "CPPC" such sweeping powers? The Wizard or OZ?
I totally agree, there need to be great changes to this industry. I'm all for a country wide "pilot's association", but it need's to be IMHO more along the lines of a "union" type of set up. Or an association. Not another "regulator", which is exactly what a professional "college" is set up as. "(or got violated by the CPPC)"
A "college" can't "issue" licenses, therefore would have no power to revoke, or suspend them. We don't need more exams. We need more common sense.
Swinging at windmills can be a good thing.....ya just got to swing at the right windmill...
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N181CS
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Re: College of Pilots?

Post by N181CS »

The idea of going to "college" come from the idea that they might raise the bar significantly. Not to say its a bad thing, however it has happened before
1) I applied to be a police officer here in Ontario and was told without a diploma or degree I could forget about it, on the other hand my father had been a cop and he never finished high school. Has any of this produced a better police officer for the most part? I would vote no.

2) Ontario has made it a requirement to a) Hold a Grade 12(not a bad thing at all) but its not retroactive to those who do not. b) go to a registered private career college.

I am not opposed to the idea of higher standards but how would that be implemented and could it take people who are in the system and force them out?
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