2 Week PPL

[AEROBAT]

The idea of a school with J3s is quaint.

One plus with a J3 is you don't have to worry about students loosing the POH...they don't have one. Perhaps you are correct that most students would not choose to learn on the classic tail wheel AC. It's a pity though as I think you could put on a PPL course for a lot less money and end up with a better "hands and feet" type pilot as well.

[Shiny Side Up]

I would really like to see how that FTU in the US runs it's course. They must be well organized to say the least. Did they say what percentage of their students took over 2 weeks?

I'd be interested in seeing that as well. I'd like to know what happens to students who take over two weeks and how things are paid for. Personally if someone was going to request accelerated training from myself, the first thing I would do is say "show me the money". With that in mind I wonder if they have a means for washing out students who can't keep up the pace - something I've seen some schools which have a very regimented program do, which usually also involves them keeping any cash that was paid up front. This is a way to keep such an operation fairly profitable. While its one thing to be a student for 14 days in a row and cram, I don't envy the instructors - they had better be getting paid well and adequate time off.

He got his RPP and went out and bought a Turbo'd Mooney 231 and flew across Canada, 12,000 feet plus over the Rockies on oxygen.

Doesn't the 231 fall under the category of "high performance" (being that they have a Vne of the 250 Knot range) I could be mistaken, but that puts it outside the realm of priviliges of the RPP.

The RPP is useless to most people.

There I would strongly disagree with you in that the RPP is what I would say a good percentage of would be pilots would really only make use of. The problem with the RPP is fools who get one for the intent of saving a few bucks who really should be getting the PPL given their real flying intent.

On the sub-topic of training, in personal experience I don't think instructors are as bad or as talentless as is often painted. Related to that I also think that the birds we use for training is a pretty minor issue pretty far down the totem pole of the problem. The real problem I feel with both instructors and students is too many get away without keeping their skills topped up. The time someone takes to learn something I find is often less relevant to their current skill level than how much they practice said skill once they have learned it.

[hz2p]

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[MichaelP]

The real problem I feel with both instructors and students is too many get away without keeping their skills topped up.

The important thing here is that schools should allow for instructor skill enhancements.
The CFI should fly with each of the instructors from time to time to enhance their abilities and to encourage a better performance.
Too many schools here accept instructors and send them out in the Cessna with little or no training.

Here I am forced to fly with new instructors as we fly aeroplanes that are very different to the mainstream.
I flew with a Class 2 instructor for a few circuits a couple of days ago.
I told him that I will be looking at his skills as an instructor.
The thing that concerns me most is the habits we all get during our primary training and that we do not notice when we ourselves are flying.
The little things we do are subconciously noticed by our students and proliferarted in that way.
So we should deliberately accentuate some of the things we want the student to do as seeing what you do makes more of an impression than stating what you do.
A typical thing in this respect is making an obvious head movement to look outside the circuit as well as in. Too many people focus inside the circuit at the expense of a traffic watch outside the circuit.
I've seen the most experienced instructors move the stick forward and backwards while holding off. I prefer to see a steady progress backwards with pauses rather than small jabs forward. This habit is forgiven in a nosewheel aircraft.

I picked up an instructor in the Citabria once... Sat him in the front and let him fly it home.
"Land it like a Cessna" I told him, "it lands exactly like a Cessna except you need to keep straight afterwards".
He had the habit of rocking the stick forward and backwards and all hell broke loose for a moment... I didn't let that go far.
He did not realise he did what he did... all his students would do likewise without realising it.

We do what we see more than what we hear.

Back on topic.
Do you think that RPP Mooney pilot had sufficient training to do what he was doing?
He had no accidents....

[AEROBAT]

Doesn't the 231 fall under the category of "high performance" (being that they have a Vne of the 250 Knot range)

No.

I'm sure no one cares, but Vne is set to no more than 90% of Vd which is solely a function of wing loading and design G limit.

And I'm absolutely certain that no one cares that a certified piston single has to have a Vso of 61K or less, which of course limits how high the wing loading can be.

And absolutely none of the know-it-all aviation geniuses here would be interested in how high the design G limit would have to be, with a light wing loading, to result in a Vne over 250K, assuming there were no other limits placed on Vne during certification (eg windshield thickness, etc) other than 90% Vd.

No, you don't need a frikken type rating to fly a Mooney

P.S. I learned everything I knew about aviation in 2 weeks.

That must explain why the BD-4 and the Harmon Rocket was put on TC's list of high performance aircraft. I have never met anyone who considered them difficult to fly.

[Shiny Side Up]

Doesn't the 231 fall under the category of "high performance" (being that they have a Vne of the 250 Knot range)

No.

I'm sure no one cares, but Vne is set to no more than 90% of Vd which is solely a function of wing loading and design G limit.

And I'm absolutely certain that no one cares that a certified piston single has to have a Vso of 61K or less, which of course limits how high the wing loading can be.

And absolutely none of the know-it-all aviation geniuses here would be interested in how high the design G limit would have to be, with a light wing loading, to result in a Vne over 250K, assuming there were no other limits placed on Vne during certification (eg windshield thickness, etc) other than 90% Vd.

No, you don't need a frikken type rating to fly a Mooney

P.S. I learned everything I knew about aviation in 2 weeks.

Many pardons. Since many of the Mooney types claim cruise speeds of the 230 Knot range, I had maybe made the mistake of believeing that Vne would be something a bit higher. I'm not terribly familiar with their performance specs though (I was unsure if the 231 models were some which claimed such figures) and I'll appologise for requiring your expertise in the matter. Further reseach reveals that the Vne of the Mooney 231 is 243 Knots, so indeed it does not fall into the category of high performance. Again many pardons on my assumption.

That must explain why the BD-4 and the Harmon Rocket was put on TC's list of high performance aircraft. I have never met anyone who considered them difficult to fly

Under the CARs amateur built aircraft fall under a different set of qualification which classify them as "high performance". The BD-4's wing loading if I remember rightly places it in the "high performance" category - though feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

The important thing here is that schools should allow for instructor skill enhancements.
The CFI should fly with each of the instructors from time to time to enhance their abilities and to encourage a better performance.
Too many schools here accept instructors and send them out in the Cessna with little or no training.

While You and I might do this Michael, an unfortunate ammount of instructors don't get such encouragement in terms of their performance - often for a variety of reasons, the turn-over rate of instructors at some schools I know would bear out part of the reason. Many students who might now be fresh licence holders usually get their skill and performance even less enhanced as they're really on their own initiative to improve their ability, many of which don't take the opportunity.

Do you think that RPP Mooney pilot had sufficient training to do what he was doing?
He had no accidents....

In short, no, he doesn't, but then again there are plenty of fools out there flying airplanes well beyond their pilot capabilities. It really suprises me there aren't more accidents to tell the truth, but in actuality there is a lot of metal that gets bent out there that one doesn't hear about. To one up your story, I know of an UPP owner who also owns a Mooney M20K... I've seen the airplane flying, I'm always curious as to who's at the controls.

But then, what do I know, I after all have taken far longer than two weeks to learn anything about aviation (does this work? It seems all the rage these days to end your post with a self-depreciating disclaimer)

[cyndy]

Hi there Driving Comet,

Not only have I heard of this school, but I got my PPL from them. I would be happy to tell you all about it...good, bad and ugly (although there is really no bad or ugly parts to tell other than the spiders in Florida are so big you can harness them up and ride em!)...just pm me and I will answer any questions you may have. But in a nutshell...LOVED that school, and YES you can really get a PPL in two weeks...in fact I got mine in 10 days, and the training is excellent. Oh by the way, technically I got it in 9 days because my first day was spent studying for the written, and then writing the written exam at 11pm that night. As for proficiency in flying, everyone has to be able to pass the same flight exam, and I can assure you no corners are cut with this program. You will be fully immersed, and will work very hard, but you will LOVE it. I would personally recommend Fred, aka Old Salt...just don't let him take you to a place called Old Man Franks or you will forever be corrupted. Tell him Cyndy sent you and he will likely roll his eyes or run...I think I was his worst student ever! I finished my PPL in June of this year down there, and now own my own plane and have over 200 hours logged. I also recently got my float rating as well in BC (August) where my instructor told me I was one of the best new pilots he had ever seen (By the way, Cat Driver...my float instructor is a buddy of yours from Nanaimo). I will admit, I shared the same skeptical view of the program when I first went down there too...but I kind of went on a challenge/bet where I had actually bet I wouldnt be able to get it done because I particularly had very little aptitude for flying, as well as a dreadful fear of flying and terrible spatial abilities. But my boyfriend who is a pilot really wanted me to learn to fly and share his passion, but I kept insisting there was no way it would happen. But he said he would pay for it, and I went thinking I would probably fail and that there was no way anyone could teach me to fly in two weeks, but at least I would get a two week holiday out of it, and the chance to prove my boyfriend wrong...so i had nothing to lose. I think in the end I gave both my boyfriend (who was waiting back home for my regular updates) and Fred some extra gray hair (especially after I blew the rubber right off the nose wheel when I was first learning to land...still have the tire as a souvenir!), but they survived and so did I (although Fred often murmered he was ready to retire to the BVI because his real passion is sailing and not flying...think I might of killed that flying passion for him actually). It also worked out to be much cheaper than training in Canada. I never had the wx issues in Florida that many of my fellow Canada pilots in training had to contend with (except for one unforecast storm on my first solo cross country...talk about a great learning experience!), nor did I have the chop and change of several instructors, aircraft, lack of availability of instructors/aircraft etc. that I hear my friends complain about who are still working on completing their PPL's (did I mention they started before me too?). I had one aircraft and one dedicated instructor who would work with me from dawn till dusk everyday with several breaks in between to combat fatigue, because you are also taught to work hard, but not to the point where you become careless or can not perform proper pilot decision making. During those breaks, you would have an opportunity to freshen up, and get a bite to eat while other students and instructors would be testing your knowledge in fun "game show" style, always prepping you for the upcoming oral exam prior to your check ride. I liken the experience to learning a second language...another skill I did not have much aptitude for. I took French Lessons regularly from when I was in kindergarten until end of highschool...yet in the end couldn't really string one sentence together. Then I went on a 3 week french immersion program to quebec one summer while I was in college and came back completely proficient and able to sign up in an advance french literature class in university. I learned more in those 3 weeks of immersion, than I had in 12 years of regular ongoing training with several teachers. I did not grow up flying around with mom and pop, nor did I have anymore previous flying experience than what I learned on my Atari (oh god...did I just date myself) - PPL immersion, or accelerated flight training is no different than French immersion. You come out proficient in the language, and very satisfied. Best of all, the instructors at that school, certainly are not hour builders (they have plenty of hours already)...they are there because they love to teach, they love to share the passion of flying (and in Fred`s case...sailing as well), and they are extremely good at what they do. They truly have perfected their program down to a science and an art. If I had to think of a downside, it would only be that my radio skills aren`t fantastic, as the controllers at CYBW would likely agree, because at GIF-Winterhaven, they don`t operate out of controlled airspace...but I am getting better. And make no mistake, there are plenty of other nearby airports with controlled airspace that you will have to learn the radio stuff on a basic level. And the only other bad thing I can think of is trying to get back in the habit of calling it a circuit up here, when down there its called a pattern. The airtraffic controllers at CYBW think I`m talking about sewing!

Bottom line...everyone has an opinion, but I would be more inclined to listen to the opinion of someone who knows the facts and has first hand experience as opposed to someone who is speculating.

Good Luck,

Cyndy

[cyndy]

By the way Michael...I forgot to mention...I am from YYC, bought my cessna 172 in YYJ and flew it back to YBW in August...got my PPL from Tailwheels in June. To be fair, I did have a co-pilot (the aircrafts previous owner) who was familiar with Mountain Flying, because I knew better than to try to make that kind of flight given my lack of experience in the mountains...which i would hope `-the businessman- in your previous analogy would have the common sense to know his limitations as a new pilot as well. But then again, if he did the tailwheels program, he likely would have been taught that anyway. And prior to having my own plane, I did rent from CDN schools when I got back from the states, and I had to do a check out with each of them, and guess what...I checked out just fine. They were happy to send me off in their rentals...I only decided to buy my own plane because I wanted to be able to go up whenever I wanted on a whim. While it is smart to be skeptical and cautious, its naive to pass judgment and form opinions without checking out your assumptions or having first hand knowledge. These guys are not cowboys just out to take your money and give you shoddy training...they have examined the problems with flight training and trouble shooted for them and created a top notch efficient program! Michael...I say this with love...be humble and admit, perhaps you are wrong on this one. Its okay to be wrong....and I can tell you, I am sure glad I was wrong too when I used to think like you about this place, because what I gift I have been given, to be able to fly, and fly safely.

Happy New Year,

Cyndy

[Cat Driver]

Thanks Cyndy:

Full immersion training with a well thought out program can be a very successful method of training.

Full immersion training is best done in a low or no radio controlled environment.

It was the method I used in my training program and the results were to a standard that I was never short of students.

As an example, when teaching pilots how to land they learn faster if the circuit is kept short preferably in the one to three minute time frame.

[ywgflyboy]

Gosh. Makes perfect sense.

Fictional exert from my circuit training in my PPL:
Aircraft: Tower, ABC downwind touch and go
Tower: ABC, number 8 following aircraft 5 mile downwind.

[MichaelP]

It was obviously a great scheme for cyndy so maybe I've overstated my point.

But all I have to go on is past experience with the three week PPL's I used to see afterwards.

I come from a much more disciplined way of flying than I see in many places today.
I was not allowed to teach tailwheel until I had 100 hours of tailwheel myself, but we have a chap here will a lot less time than that and he's doing well.

Of more importance is how much preparation and experience someone needs to teach aerobatics... Perhaps I was asked for too much of everything before I was allowed myself.

The only low time/high speed PPL I knew who I would trust in an aeroplane had actually learned in the Tomahawk on an approved 37 hour PPL course at Biggin Hill. He bought a share in an Auster and was solo in it in 5 hours.
Because of his inexperience I did a lot more with him than perhaps he needed, but I had to be sure.
This chap had extensive radio control model flying experience and was about 20 years old. He's been a training captain with Virgin on their heavies since his early 30's!

My main concern was that a two week course should not be implied as a guarantee... It is a false expectation for most people.
Cyndy is an exceptional learner I think.

Always remember you don't know what you don't know.
Perhaps what we need to learn is not very much.

[Mighty 150 Flyer]

Did a private, then a commercial directly after and it took a total of 11 weeks.

[MichaelP]

I suppose that having won my licences over many periods and having spend huge amounts of time learning what I have learned and sometimes relearned over my years flying aeroplanes I am annoyed that people can achieve what took me months and years in just a few weeks.

I regard flying as an art.
It is cheapened by those who attest to the fact that what many of us took years to do can be done by a few superb people in a couple of weeks.

Sometimes it is difficult for me to express what I feel in mere words.
Experience in flight is as much a feeling, a sense, as it is something that can be written down.
Since it is something within your heart, your feeling, it is an art.

That 'feeling' that an 'artist' pilot develops is the feeling that will keep him/her safe.
It is impossible to put in words the decisions one makes through a sense of, rather than an overt indication of, that have lead to a safe landing while unseen behind some etherial corner lurked something that would have been hazardous.

In my heart, knowing what I know, I cannot conceive of anyone learning enough within a two week period to be safe.
But I'm probably wrong.

What I feel will either be borne out in a fast track person's future experience, or maybe not.

I see the Mc Donalds burgers come through the door here (I hate them myself, not had one in maybe 15 years!), I am sure the consumers of this fast food will live long and healthy lives.
Personally I prefer a meal that is cooked with care over a longer period. Maybe 'slow cooking' ensures a lasting flavour.

But that's me...
I'm a slow learner who's still learning after 36 years of flying.

[Cat Driver]

How long should one climb at VX in a light airplane such as a C172?

[Tango01]

How long should one climb at VX in a light airplane such as a C172?

Why are you climbing at Vx?

[Cat Driver]

Whoops put the question in the wrong thread.

Was asking Auxbaton how long he climbs little Cessna's at VX as he described in another thread.