Maintenance Engineers

This forum has been developed to discuss maintenance topics in Canada.

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Bullet Remington
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

Post by Bullet Remington »

WNA;

Thanks for your reply, appreciated! Nope, I'm no longer pissed. I'n vindictive though!! :roll:

The industry statndard you quoted is what I would consider the "normal"starting salary for a licensed and highly experienced engineer, topping out around 120K. And I do believe that the starting salary is still lower then what most drivers makes!

As for the reality of what the industry can bear, I am fully aware of the industry / most company's financial stiuation. AND, most company's that have been in business and operating with a profit goal, is in the black. having said that, when these companys bring in a new driver and an experienced, licensed engineer in the same month, and pay the new driver 150.00 bucks more to ramp and dead head aircraft, then they pay a licensed engineer to maintain and relesase that maintenance on an aircraft, then my acceptance of that statement is severely shaken. And I have seen that in 90% of the companies I have conducted audits at!! There are good companies out there, that value their maintenance guys and the pay and benefits show their concern! and reflect the value that the company places on their maintenance employees.

If Wilderness North does indeed pay reasonable, and I don't think they do considering what has been posted here, from the head Driver, then good on them.

As for Air tractors fun to drive, so were Ag Cats, UNTIL a crankshaft sheared over the only hill in the middle of a potato field in PEI. But even after that, running back and forth over a field and/or fire gets redundent after a while!

Fuel and water in a hopper is nothing! I was down in the Southland years ago, and a whole gaggle of Ag cats and tractors came into a field to work tobacco crops, out of the hopper crawels two A & P guys!! the next three machines carrried their tool boxes! The forth machine was full of beer. Now the beer I could live with, the first three machines scared the Bejesus outa me!!

Having said that, I knew one operator down there that ahad a seat system manufactured so he could carry people in the hopper!!! I have no feckin idea how any body could sit in there, it stunk so badly from the chemicals!!

But I digress!! Good Luck with your search!

BR
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lupin
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

Post by lupin »

wildernessnorthair wrote:
As to my aviation business concerns; the reality is that industry can only pay what the industry can bear. There is always an operator out there that will undercut rates just to survive, so unless there was a common union of operators to stop this practice, the industry is forced to live within its means under competitive markets. That being said, I have always tried to improve working conditions for all employees, despite the markets.
So I don’t just shrug it off as the "norm" but once I have done what I can do to improve the situation I probably do “go my merry way" after I do my best. Sooner or later a person must take the high road in life and look toward the positive things, otherwise, life is just way too depressing.

“So, you want to tell us what you consider is industry standards?”

For a top of the line engineer I would say $80 - $90 K. If he/she was exceptional and could help move the company forward to new levels, I’m guessing $120 K + (but I am speaking out of turn).
Simple supply and demand.

You have a need for an AME, in a remote location and no AME is presently interested in what you have to offer. Many things come to mind.

1. Maybe you aren't communicating what you have to offer very well.
2. Maybe you are communicating well and no one is interested in what you have to offer.
3. Maybe your ad isn't getting the proper visibility
4. Maybe your company has a bad reputation and no one is interested
5. Maybe the pool of AMEs is being reduced at a faster rate then what we have seen in the past (with the babyboomers retiring) and qualified replacements are not in the pipeline due to the years of hardship we AMEs have had to endure.
6. Maybe an AME would need a better idea of what is required/desired in order to get the 80K-120K offered by your company. I have seen similar offers before but they generally involved 3000 hrs/annum with an electronic leash year round.(again the point about communication)

Personally, I love aviation and airplanes but I am growing tired of the shifts, pay cuts and the lack of respect we get in this industry. I am now a bit more then halfway through a bachelors degree and hope to find something better for myself when I get my degree. I now understand why my brethren leave this industry. You can make better money fixing heavy equipment and get day shift while you are at it. Why bother with the headaches.

As for your statement on "the industry is forced to live within its means under competitive markets." well the industry is now coming to terms with a shortage of AMEs. The nickel and diming of AMEs, the ridiculous work conditions are not attracting replacement candidates. The "industry" will be forced to adapt if it wants to keep operating.

Good luck with your AME hunt. Try employment Canada, maybe you will have some luck. Air Canada is also going to be laying off workers shortly, maybe you can find a good candidate in there?

Lupin
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ourkid2000
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

Post by ourkid2000 »

Great thread! :partyman:
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Pat Richard
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

Post by Pat Richard »

ourkid2000 wrote:Great thread! :partyman:
x2

Some excellent posts, and I give props to WNA to responding to what has been posted here. I quite honestly did not expect him to reply to the responses, as constructive conversation rarely happens in real life, between maintenance and management.

Having said that, I find Bullet's responses/writing to be 100% comparable to what I've encountered and think about the current state of affairs in this industry.
Other's make some very good points in support also, and I have to admit surprise at just how common the issues are among the experienced/longer time AMEs, and how many no longer care to put up with it.

I guess we will have to wait and see the final outcome, but I'm not holding my breath.
I believe there is enough ingrained arrogance, at the management level in general, that most companies will expend much greater efforts in exploring any alternative, instead of treating their AME's better. I don't expect to see any significant change in the future, regardless of how much of shortage there is. I do expect to see efforts(by industry) increased in the area of importing foreign(ala Cascade) "engineers"(I use that term VERY loosely in this regard) to try and fill the shortfall.
Best of luck with this, as I've witnessed this several times to be an extremely poor alternative, and you will be generally disappointed, no matter how good the resumes look.

Happy New Decade, Canadian Aviation. :)
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Human Factor
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

Post by Human Factor »

I'm not sure that the discrepancy between pilots and engineers will ever be equalized.

When the drivers are doing their job, the aircraft are flying and making money for the owner. They're the heroes. When the mechanics are doing their jobs, the aircraft are sitting in the hangar while the owner pays out money. You can see why maintenance is regarded as a necessary evil.

It's a very rare company owner that sees value in its maintenance staff, and this is wrong. What would a bad accident cost a company in the end?
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lupin
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

Post by lupin »

Another thought...

In all the smaller shops I worked at, the pilots were only "passing through". They had no intention of staying and no will or incentive to do so. Yet many of them got better pay then AMEs. The maintenance staff were some of the most permanent staff at the companies. If pilots are passing through and AME more permanent, then why is that not reflected in their pay? Why not have some sort of pension plan or RRSP matching plan for the AMEs/ maintenance group?

The salary at Westjet, Air Canada, Bombardier and Transat is in the neighborhood of 90k-95k$/year if you include benefits and pension plan to normal salary. Since there is now a shortage, what you need to ask yourself Mr. WildernessAir, is what do you have to offer in order to get an AME? What would motivate an employee to leave his job and move to the Thunder Bay area to work for you? How competitive is your offer compared to what the local competitors in YQT are offering? How much does Bearskin pay? How much does Thunder Airlines Pay? What does Recon air Pay? and what does Hearst Air pay? What benefits are offered by these places? How do you compare?

In my experience, it is a waste of my time to contact an employer who doesn't disclose salary range. Most contracting outfits that call, are offering ridiculously low rates. Most small operators are offering the same and without benefits. They then wonder why they get no available candidates.

Lupin
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Last edited by lupin on Thu Dec 31, 2009 11:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
ourkid2000
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

Post by ourkid2000 »

I have no idea about Bombardier, Westjet or Air Transat.......

But I do know that Air Canada pays no more than around 35 per hour at the top of the scale.
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lupin
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

Post by lupin »

ourkid2000 wrote:I have no idea about Bombardier, Westjet or Air Transat.......

But I do know that Air Canada pays no more than around 35 per hour at the top of the scale.
When calculating total compensation, one must factor in pension plan, rrsp matching, health benefits. If you can be paid 35$/hr with a pension plan or 35$/hr without... how much is that worth to you?
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Pat Richard
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

Post by Pat Richard »

In my experience, it is a waste of my time to contact an employer who doesn't disclose salary range.
Most contracting outfits that call, are offering ridiculously low rates. Most small operators are offering the same and without benefits. They then wonder why they get no available candidates.
Contract rates have stayed the same forever, and and if you figure for inflation, etc, they are getting lower monthly.

I really would like to know why more companies do not hire contractors directly. It just blows my mind how stubborn most are in this regard. They could secure good ame's by giving the rate they are paying to the agencies.
If any management type is reading this, please sound off.
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planemikey
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

Post by planemikey »

Great Thread !! :prayer: :prayer: Hitting all the points of WHY AME's are moving to other carrers at an even more allarming rate than before the resession . However in order to pay more you need to charge more and the root of the problem may lie in the fact that everyone wants to to fly for $49 and there are companies out there going to try and go with the volume ... some fail and fold and or others fail and fold because they are smaller . The Bigger fish theory in practise. Untill this madness stops I do not see a change in the direction in the extinction of the AME .

Big city / big Iron business is totally different than the Northern or small community hopper business. there are so many differences it is not fair to compare. But within each identity there are several glowing simularities

1) Comparison with other industries in financial rewards /vs. responsibilites and condidtions
2) Access to normal Quality family time for the Engineer
3) Lack of Respect for the Engineer

Now that TC has handed the keys to the henhouse to the Fox it can only get worse for the Engineer , the small operator and all the flying public .
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wildernessnorthair
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

Post by wildernessnorthair »

ps. besides our own AMO, we pay our contract maintenance guys $75 + an hour.
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plainfixer
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

Post by plainfixer »

This is probably the best thread I have ever read.

If there was ever something in writing to send to HR minions or post on the wall so your manager could read, this would be it.

I agree there is no end in sight to stop this industry decline, and there will never be an end to the arrogance of managers or university educated HR personnel who have no aviation experience.
What can we do?
Let the AME pool dry up?
Stop repairing aircraft and join the ranks of HR? (least someone in HR would know the worth of an AME!)

I'd like TC to grab hold of the reigns again and control the industry directly, like they used to.
But a series unnecessary accidents need to happen before TC wakes up.
By then most of us AME's will be long gone from aviation.
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plainfixer
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

Post by plainfixer »

wildernessnorthair

your comment: "ps. besides our own AMO, we pay our contract maintenance guys $75 + an hour."

Thankyou for posting yet another example of what AME's have to put up with.

Your AMO is prepared to pay $75+ to an agency to get a contractor who is being paid $35/hr. Yet your AMO is only prepared to pay $20-30/hr for a full time AME.

Thank you again for your contribution!
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billy ray valintine
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

Post by billy ray valintine »

great subject,great posts
someone asked"if management is watching.....maybe they can reply",my answer to that is yes,yes they are, and they are shitting their phuckin ivory tower slacks. will they chime in?...
nooooooooo. you see,it's the management attitude that they posses. there isn't a company
out there that has admitted publicly an AME shortage,therefore wages will stay low.

o.k. mr. wildernessair, here's my deal.....145,000.oo per year,a signed contract stating i will receive two years wages if you layoff,or termination in anyway shape or form takes place
within the one year contract.
housing{my OWN PLACE TO LIVE which includes all amenities}provided ,transportation provided,perdiem of 100.oo per day extra,all based on a forty hour week{o.t. is at time and a
half} funds are to be deposited every friday directly to my account.

interested?.............i didn't think so.
now you know why AME'S are leaving this "industry in severe decline" THE PAY IS SHIT!!!!

BRV
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Vickers vanguard
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

Post by Vickers vanguard »

ourkid2000 wrote:I have no idea about Bombardier, Westjet or Air Transat.......

But I do know that Air Canada pays no more than around 35 per hour at the top of the scale.

At Bombardier, as per the last collective agreement( Nov 29, 2008), it's roughly 38$ + 6% if you're leadhand, add to that a bonus of aprox 1.5$ for each hour worked, overtime included. Overtime is 1.5 until you hit the 12 hours mark in a given day, then it becomes 2.0 (twice). Saturday is 1.5 your rate for 8 hours, then its 2.0 your rate. Sunday, on church's day, it's 2.0 your rate all day and that is to compensate you for skipping church.

I almost forgot to say this, you can get the above wages within your first 2 years or 3 years with the company.........so, you don't need 20 years seniority for that.
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itismedd
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

Post by itismedd »

My hat is off to everybody in this thread, as you are all hitting the nail on the head. I remember when I was a kid watching planes and helicopters fly overhead, if I heard one coming I would go running to watch. Always wanting to be in Aviation. The more I read here and the more I work in this industry, the more I realize I should have let the friggin thing fly away.

All the comments here about the employers are so true, but in my opinion maintenance has one thing not going for them. It doesnt matter where you work, where you go. Maintenance will never stick together, and that , is just as big a problem as employers paying us shit, cause they know someone will.
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motox415
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

Post by motox415 »

Pat: Here at Canadian North we prefer to hire Contractors direct.
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Pat Richard
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

Post by Pat Richard »

motox415 wrote:Pat: Here at Canadian North we prefer to hire Contractors direct.

Thank you for the heads up, and a little suggestion to companies out there for a New Year's Resolution.

How about posting contractor positions in "jobs" section instead of rolling the dice, reaching for the phone, and calling an agency?

If that's not possible, post reasons as to why it isn't, on this forum.

I'm confident an immediate improvement could be made if a)The AME gets the full rate, b)the company get's the type of experience they need, for the same money being spent already for lower quality mechs(for $35 a/hr) that quite often are headaches/useless.


Companies, you are spending the money already, perhaps it's time to think about getting better value for it. :)
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Ewen Mahoney
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

Post by Ewen Mahoney »

This problem is not a Canadian one alone, I am licensed in 4 countries including Canada and have seen on a global scale qualified LAMEs who either quit the industry of fail to go through the hassle of licensing at a staggering rate.

With a natural attrition rate raising there are just not the young guys coming through prepared to put up with the 24/7 nature of many of the operators including the lower pay issues but also the cost and crippling bureaucratic web when it comes to dealing with the licensing divisions of many of the civil aviation authorities globally.

It seems those with the tenacity to stick with it are able to pick and choose their work, pay and global locations with more and more ease and it is an issue that seems not to be going away but only getting worse.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth...
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crazy_aviator
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

Post by crazy_aviator »

Its okay to bash the employees and the industry BUT it does come time , on occasion , to look at ourselves and clean up our own act before we point the finger at anyone else.

- Attire, Many AMEs are dressed like junkyard dogs. ( no offence to junkyards)

- Attitude, Immature and negative, like little children, grow up folks.

- Mouth, Foul and ignorant, try to emulate pilots a little and talk/compose your sentences
like someone over the age of 7.

- Solidarity, start working together instead of like pilots !

- Standards/ integrity, maintain your integrity and standards at all cost.

AME s , We need to fix the house before we try to fix the community. Act like professionals, then demand to be treated likewise.
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