College of Pilots?

[ajet32]

I am once again sticking my beak in where it maybe shouldn't. But I agree completely with "Doc" who gave these people the right to do this and why does it seem that their "Elitist BS" appeals to many. It scares the living daylights out of me!

I don't get that at all. This business has very effective ways of weeding out the good from the bad. It also has a mechanism where someone who does fail a Ride or an exam can retrain and prove their abilities. I don't for one second think that any of this should change. As a former Checker I have seen the very best screw an approach in the sim. Would you " Elitist Socialist Folks " then want said individual banned from flying forthwith and forever.

When someone can actually show a need for this "College of Pilots" then I may change my mind. So far all I see is more protectionism and that has never worked in aviation or anywhere else.

[Doc]

but that's up to the individual and his instructor

What happens when the instructor cannot determine the suitability of the candidate?

That's what his CFI is for. Or, you could send the student to Cat Driver for a Cat Scan.....nothing's perfect, Strega.

[Widow]

My question is a simple one. Who gave them the right to "attempt" to do ANYTHING?? In my book, they have NO rights. Is this concept of "control over your futures" rub anybody else the wrong way?

Industry Canada gave them the right to build a professional association when they approved the application for incorporation. So they are building a professional association. They are still in the planning stages, hence a lack of public information. Once they are satisfied with their planning, THEN they will go public and you (and I) will know what they are planning to attempt to do. Then, those of you who have not chosen to get involved or get information during the planning stages, will be able to get information, or get involved - or object - to whatever is planned to be attempted.

[ajet32]

As I believe "Doc " mentioned .Last I heard this is a free country. I know of several individuals who have taken more than double the time to complete the requirements of the PPL,CPL and IFR.
If they are willing and it is not unsafe then who are any of us to say they are not allowed to continue the training. It may be wasteful and maybe a Flying School should say you know this might not be for you. legislation of this is neither right nor dare democratic. I think thats what we live in do we not. " A DEMOCRACY"

[Doc]

My question is a simple one. Who gave them the right to "attempt" to do ANYTHING?? In my book, they have NO rights. Is this concept of "control over your futures" rub anybody else the wrong way?

Industry Canada gave them the right to build a professional association when they approved the application for incorporation. So they are building a professional association. They are still in the planning stages, hence a lack of public information. Once they are satisfied with their planning, THEN they will go public and you (and I) will know what they are planning to attempt to do. Then, those of you who have not chosen to get involved or get information during the planning stages, will be able to get information, or get involved - or object - to whatever is planned to be attempted.

Well, that sure gives me a warm fuzz feeling. Would "Industry Canada" approve my right to form a "professional" association of Street Walkers? Now, there's an industry that REALLY needs the government's learned input.

[Rubberbiscuit]

As I believe "Doc " mentioned .Last I heard this is a free country. I know of several individuals who have taken more than double the time to complete the requirements of the PPL,CPL and IFR.
If they are willing and it is not unsafe then who are any of us to say they are not allowed to continue the training. It may be wasteful and maybe a Flying School should say you know this might not be for you. legislation of this is neither right nor dare democratic. I think thats what we live in do we not. " A DEMOCRACY"

Amen to that. I do not want a group of self appointed professionals telling me if I am worthy or not. I believe that is the recurring theme here.

[Widow]

re ^ Where are you getting this from? Has someone posted something definitive, someone involved or in contact with the CPPC, that has indicated a change to this effect is being contemplated?

Well, that sure gives me a warm fuzz feeling. Would "Industry Canada" approve my right to form a "professional" association of Street Walkers? Now, there's an industry that REALLY needs the government's learned input.

Geez Doc. Streetwalking is illegal in Canada, so no, Industry Canada would not give approval. In other countries, where streetwalking is legal, there are professional streetwalker associations and unions with government approval to represent an industry sector.

They too, still have to acquire a supporting membership to be viable after government approval.

[Doc]

re ^ Where are you getting this from? Has someone posted something definitive, someone involved or in contact with the CPPC, that has indicated a change to this effect is being contemplated?

Well, that sure gives me a warm fuzz feeling. Would "Industry Canada" approve my right to form a "professional" association of Street Walkers? Now, there's an industry that REALLY needs the government's learned input.

Geez Doc. Streetwalking is illegal in Canada, so no, Industry Canada would not give approval. In other countries, where streetwalking is legal, there are professional streetwalker associations and unions with government approval to represent an industry sector.

They too, still have to acquire a supporting membership to be viable after government approval.

Well then, I'll apply for a grant to do a white paper on the legalization of said Streetwalking. I'll need some "in"put. Anybody? Buelller..?

[Cat Driver]

That's what his CFI is for. Or, you could send the student to Cat Driver for a Cat Scan.....

I said I would stay out of this but it has gotten so far out of hand I am getting truly concerned that aviation the industry I lived in and for is going to hell on a rocket ship.

YOU PEOPLE DO NOT NEED MORE RULES, YOU DO NOT NEED MORE PEOPLE TELLING YOU HOW TO THINK.

WHAT YOU NEED IS TO USE THE TRAINING YOU NOW HAVE AND " THINK "

I was all for pilots and every bit as important AME's getting together in a cohesive group to support each other under the existing rules.

I am afraid, very afraid when I see those already in positions of power or influence already setting up a new empire unelected by anyone...especially if they are now employed by government.

There I feel better now that I have expressed my thoughts.

Good luck.

I will sleep tonight happy to no longer be part of the gong show that is aviation in 2010.

[AEROBAT]

My question is a simple one. Who gave them the right to "attempt" to do ANYTHING?? In my book, they have NO rights. Is this concept of "control over your futures" rub anybody else the wrong way?

Exactly the way I am beginning to feel. I also wonder why they have not bothered to seek input from the pilots they would like to have Industry Canada feel they represent.

I am starting to smell a rat.

[Widow]

Who said anything about more rules?

And Cat, are you honestly implying that Holbrook stopped caring about the industry when he rejoined TCCA?

You guys are turning this into some kind of conspiracy.

Nobody has any power or influence yet - they have to get the members before they can get power or influence! They can't get the members until they have a solid "product" to offer.

A bunch of pilots who give a sh!t got together and said, you know, people have talked about this for years, Paul Carson testified about it at the Standing Committee on Bill C-7, TC seems like they might be willing to go this way - let's try to do it!

The link to the website has been here since November last year ... viewtopic.php?f=54&t=48214&p=460045. There's been plenty of chance to take some initiative and find out more.

Otherwise, and at the risk of repeating myself and again sounding condescending, they are making sure all their ducks are in a row BEFORE they go public and try to acquire the membership they NEED in order to have any power to do anything that will affect your lives.

[armchair]

they are making sure all their ducks are in a row BEFORE they go public and try to acquire the membership they NEED in order to have any power to do anything that will affect your lives.

Hmmm... sounds familiar.... something about Poland in 1939

[av8tor_assrope]

Wow.......a logo and like 10 words…and you guys have dragged this thing on for 6 pages!!!!!

[snoopy]

Oh.... I just can't resist any more... I'm all for change in the industry, so much so that I have knowingly accepted the inevitable public flak one gets for speaking out in a crowd - because I believed it was the right thing to do. However nobody can do the job alone - every person with a vested interest must all dive in, get their hands dirty and bleed a little to make it happen. And they have to BELIEVE in themselves and in others to succeed...I just don't see this happening around here.

I would gladly support any group of people prepared to fight for proactive change in the Canadian aviation industry - providing they were a diverse bunch and representative of ALL walks of aviation, not just pilots. I am totally NOT in favor of a select group of secretive, elitist, (pardon me while I step outside of my normally politically correct self) white boy's club, unionist airline types with a few dollars in their pocket and the gift of the gab in the political arena.

If this select few has such lofty goals for the entire industry (well the fixed-wing pilot group anyway), then why do they not bravely and confidently step forward with their thoughts and ideas, with a view to enlist any and all who are willing to give - no matter how much, or how little - to the effort. And do they have such little respect for mechanics, dispatchers, ground support and everyone else that helps make the $$ burn, they seek to improve their own select ranks and leave the rest of the riff raff to wallow in the filth?

No thanks!

Those that "haven't forgotten their roots" have certainly forgotten their place.

Cheers,

Kirsten B.

[Doc]

You guys are turning this into some kind of conspiracy.
Nobody has any power or influence yet -

"yet"

If it looks like a skunk, smells like a skunk, chances are......you guessed it! It's a skunk!

Widow, why are you even involved in this?

[N181CS]

I think thats what we live in do we not. " A DEMOCRACY"

We live in a Capitalist society. Capitalism and Democracy are 2 different systems and are often confused as being the same issue. Democracy is about giving everyone a say, Capitalism is about getting rich at any price even the expense of your fellow man.

[Cat Driver]

Who said anything about more rules?

And Cat, are you honestly implying that Holbrook stopped caring about the industry when he rejoined TCCA?

widow I do not know anything about Holbrook except from what I can gather he does not fit the mold Snoopy so eloquently just described, I do not think he is one of us...as in one of the front line working grunts in the 703/704 sector.

I support a group formed by the grunts from all the industry, not just pilots, choosing those they wish to repersent them who understand the problems in the industry.

Part of the reason I survived so many decades in the industry is I learned to listen to my inner warning system that sometimes went off and did not fly until I had identified what was wrong.

This college and the group that are kick starting it without input from the grunts set of my inner warning system that something is wrong.

I am of course open to the hope it a a false warning.

[snoopy]

For the record, I have nothing against Greg Holbrook personally - in fact I've enjoyed a number of interesting conversations with him and respect a great deal of what he has accomplished. Interestingly, he does have some background in helicopters - he just doesn't emphasize it in public.

Cheers,
Kirsten B.

[Widow]

Widow, why are you even involved in this?

I'm not involved Doc. I already said, I am just a supporter of the initial concept, as were many people if that thread from November '08 is anything to go by, which is why I tried to find out more, and have shared what I've learned. I could change my mind completely when they go public, and so could you.

And since it keeps being brought up, the BOD of the CPPC is not currently made up of an exclusive "elite". There are Board members who could easily be described as "grunts", and who have fought for safety in the non-airline sector at their own peril. I would think the Board can and would, change almost entirely in composition once membership is offered to the public. Then again, I could be wrong.

I don't know if the College will fly. It doesn't affect me either way. If it doesn't fly, maybe some other group will have taken the initiative and have something better to offer. But they too, will have had to start up "secretly". There have been others to attempt something like this in the past, and in all likelihood, it will keep being tried until someone gets it right. Or not.

Either way, I agree that ultimately all sectors of the industry should be represented by a professional association, not just pilots. But this isn't my initiative.

[AEROBAT]

What I am afraid of happening is opening up the morning paper and reading about some new alphabet orginization that has been granted powers over my pilot privileges and ratings.

Or getting a registered letter in the mail telling me to show up somewhere with my log book, and cheque book, to report for registration and certification.

I have seen it happen with the agriculture industry, construction and medical.