Maintenance Engineers

This forum has been developed to discuss maintenance topics in Canada.

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lupin
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

Post by lupin »

crazy_aviator wrote:Its okay to bash the employees and the industry BUT it does come time , on occasion , to look at ourselves and clean up our own act before we point the finger at anyone else.

- Attire, Many AMEs are dressed like junkyard dogs. ( no offence to junkyards)

- Attitude, Immature and negative, like little children, grow up folks.

- Mouth, Foul and ignorant, try to emulate pilots a little and talk/compose your sentences
like someone over the age of 7.

- Solidarity, start working together instead of like pilots !

- Standards/ integrity, maintain your integrity and standards at all cost.

AME s , We need to fix the house before we try to fix the community. Act like professionals, then demand to be treated likewise.
Great post. I agree 100%.
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planemikey
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

Post by planemikey »

Planefixer and Pat Richard going direct is an Idea but thats where it ends. here's just a few reason's why :

1) The corporations looking for the engineers have HR departments that basically don't know one engineer from the other. The "agencies" through years of industry knowledge of both matching an engineer with a product and task has a better chance of being succesful in getting the right person .
2) Using an agency keeps the contractors at an arms length from the DOM ,PRM so as to not promote favoritism and hassles of phone calls , anger and resentment .
3) Using another corporation ensures : That their premises are insured , their WCB is not compormised by a disguntled contractor and is provided .
4) One contract one rate no hassles , flights , accomodations all arranged
5) When or if the hirer has issues with a contracter its the agency that has to pay that person , and to pay to get them out of town and that agency then has to put someone else in at no cost to the Hirer .
6) Hirer coensn't have to deal with contractors wanting advances, invoices and time cards not matching etc... and they can pay the agencies in 90 days and in most circumstances do .Wouldn' I like a free 90 day loan !!
7) When the AMO or Airline goes tits up and files for bankruptcy is is less personal to shaft an agency which also happens. Over seas companies sometimes don't pay no matter what and the contractor is still paid through the agency.
8) The agency provides a legal buffer from the CCRA in that the engineer is a contractor not a temporary employee which is huge $$
9) When the Agencies engineer has a heart Attack the agency pays for the Medivac ...

......and on and on it goes .
Add to that the current back stabbing within the industry of engineers underbidding each other to get work and you can see this will not work. Some Companies :) are trying this and rubbing their hands together in glee taking advantage of the engineers and using engineers that were provided to them before by the agency but when things pick back up this will turn sour.... Agencies and engineers , despite all the rederict , have great memories
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Human Factor
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

Post by Human Factor »

crazy_aviator wrote:Its okay to bash the employees and the industry BUT it does come time , on occasion , to look at ourselves and clean up our own act before we point the finger at anyone else.

- Attire, Many AMEs are dressed like junkyard dogs. ( no offence to junkyards)

- Attitude, Immature and negative, like little children, grow up folks.

- Mouth, Foul and ignorant, try to emulate pilots a little and talk/compose your sentences
like someone over the age of 7.

- Solidarity, start working together instead of like pilots !

- Standards/ integrity, maintain your integrity and standards at all cost.

AME s , We need to fix the house before we try to fix the community. Act like professionals, then demand to be treated likewise.
So many things I could retort with but in order to retain the dignity that the OP thinks we AMEs should develop, I'll only touch on the highlighted one:

Please describe what the proper attire is for working on ancient piston engines. Just changing the oil on a radial Beaver leaves the AME dripping from head to toe through no fault of his/her own. It's the nature of the beast. Would we look better in your eyes if we were wearing a tuxedo drenched in filthy oil than the coveralls we generally all wear now? Give me a break. We're mechanics, what do you expect us to wear to do our jobs? What does the mechanic that works on your POS car wear that impresses you so much? We're all waiting with bated breath. :roll:
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chowda
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

Post by chowda »

Human Factor wrote:
crazy_aviator wrote:Its okay to bash the employees and the industry BUT it does come time , on occasion , to look at ourselves and clean up our own act before we point the finger at anyone else.

- Attire, Many AMEs are dressed like junkyard dogs. ( no offence to junkyards)

- Attitude, Immature and negative, like little children, grow up folks.

- Mouth, Foul and ignorant, try to emulate pilots a little and talk/compose your sentences
like someone over the age of 7.

- Solidarity, start working together instead of like pilots !

- Standards/ integrity, maintain your integrity and standards at all cost.

AME s , We need to fix the house before we try to fix the community. Act like professionals, then demand to be treated likewise.
So many things I could retort with but in order to retain the dignity that the OP thinks we AMEs should develop, I'll only touch on the highlighted one:

Please describe what the proper attire is for working on ancient piston engines. Just changing the oil on a radial Beaver leaves the AME dripping from head to toe through no fault of his/her own. It's the nature of the beast. Would we look better in your eyes if we were wearing a tuxedo drenched in filthy oil than the coveralls we generally all wear now? Give me a break. We're mechanics, what do you expect us to wear to do our jobs? What does the mechanic that works on your POS car wear that impresses you so much? We're all waiting with bated breath. :roll:
I agree with HF on this. What exactly are we expected to wear and why should this heavily affect what we get paid? Is it not more about the service we provide and the risk we take? I can mention many other types of trades who are better off and dress even worse like say rig pigs.
Lookng more professional is never a bad idea but but how do you achieve that when you have to wear coveralls? Rip the name tag off so management has to learn your name? As for foul mouthed and such, that really comes down to manners, and that is a lost cause in todays.
As much as i would love to show up to work lookng pretty in some kind of a costume like the pilots have i do not see this happening. More professionl and sticking to integrity for ssure but i think the idea is to be recognized for what we do, not impress the HR types with eye candy. But i think that is the problem.
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SeptRepair
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

Post by SeptRepair »

Work attire can be a real pain in the ass. I admit, at times I dress like I should be living on skid row. But like it has been mentioned, Changing the bottom jug on a radial can drench you in oil regardless if you have coveralls on. Then there is sweltering heat and doing the same jug change and the last thing you want are coveralls. I just cut the sleeves off and shorten the legs ( kind of like that Angus Young get up he wore on stage...cmon..you know the one.) and put a pair of shorts on underneath. I recognise that the same attire in say a corporate setting would not nor should be tolerated. Every company is different and have different levels of filth the mechanic is exposed to. As well the company may have an image they want to maintain. We as engineers could at least recognise that and act accordingly. There really isnt a one hat fits all answer to this. Regardless we all need to act like professionals and the sooner that happens the sooner we can move on.
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Cat Driver
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

Post by Cat Driver »

While we are discussing dress codes why not have engineers wear five gold bars on their shoulders and the sleeves of their attire so as to point out their position in aviation compared to pilots? :smt040
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billy ray valintine
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

Post by billy ray valintine »

Cat Driver wrote:While we are discussing dress codes why not have engineers wear five gold bars on their shoulders and the sleeves of their attire so as to point out their position in aviation compared to pilots? :smt040
cat,you nailed it!
maintenance is the backbone of any AMO,aviation for that matter,although we are not treated as such.
without ame's,the company has nothing.
lupin/crazy a
maybe pilots should learn to be more like engineers and learn to do a few things for themselves
instead of whining about everything.
i don't get paid to change diapers ,wipe noses and listen to their constant belly acing.
for this,i get paid less!......something wrong here.

BRV
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Last edited by billy ray valintine on Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
Bullet Remington
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

Post by Bullet Remington »

crazy_aviator wrote:Its okay to bash the employees and the industry BUT it does come time , on occasion , to look at ourselves and clean up our own act before we point the finger at anyone else.

I stand to be corrected here, CA; BUT I haven't seen / read anywhere in this thread that any poster has bashed the employees. EMPLOYERS yes, Employees, nope! And given the theme of the Thread, I do believe that is not only warranted but accepted!

- Attire, Many AMEs are dressed like junkyard dogs. ( no offence to junkyards)

So, what's your recommendation? What would YOU like to see AME's wear? IF you were following the content of the thread( and you just as well may have been) you would have noted that the thread was concerning the WORKING conditions and PAY of AMEs. Both of this subjects are relevant to the dress attire, I believe. I'm working 12 hours shifts, but have been extended to another 5 hours to fix a machine that went TU on the line, I've now been working for 17 hours. In the past 17 hours I have helped do a Hot Section on a PT6; a cylinder changer on a 421, a prop change on a Bandit and a fuel tank leak inside the tank of a citation. I have PRC all over my arm and had, it's in my hair along with soot from the hot section all over my face. The coveralls I WAS wearing had oil all down the leg from pulling the cylinder on the 421, and fuel on the rest from the fuel tank on the citation, I took the coveralls off but I haven't had time to shower nor change my clothes, I have an aircraft on the line that the boss wants in the air, and I have a bunch of snot nosed piolts milling around, bugging me with, when is it going to be ready? When is it going to be ready!

My skin burns because of the fuel soaked jeans and shirt, I tried washing it off in the sink, I would have doused it properly BUT there is no emergency shower in the hangar and the boss won't give me time to do it anyway. The chafing from the wet clothes, the whining of the pilot/s, the pressure from the boss, I'm hungery, I'm cold and I'm tired. AND just for good measure I stink and I'm under paid! AND you want be to be a little more presentable?? Jesus man, I'm NOT getting paid enough to show up with a new pair of jeans, let alone have a second pair in the locker, which is NON existent because the company doesn't supply lockers nor coveralls!

- Attitude, Immature and negative, like little children, grow up folks.

- Mouth, Foul and ignorant, try to emulate pilots a little and talk/compose your sentences
like someone over the age of 7.

Huh? See my comment above! You don't like my enounciation and vocabulary, FECH OFF!! I'm too tired and busy to engage in a meaningful conversation about your, the pilot's nor the owners observations on my attire!

- Solidarity, start working together instead of like pilots !

I was going to say, I find it incredulous that you would even inferr that engineers should emulate drivers, Especially given that you profess to have been an Engineer for 25 years. BUT, then again I see you were a Beaver driver as well. So are you an engineer by choice or because you have to be?? IF you think drivers are smarter then engineers you need to give your head a shake! The ONLY thing that pilots ( in the major carrier market) have been smarter then engineers is that they were smart enough to form/join a union decicated specifically to furthering drivers ineterests. They have even fooled the public into believing that their job is difficult and dangerous!! And if you believe that they are correct,you'r NUTS!!

- Standards/ integrity, maintain your integrity and standards at all cost.

I believe that in general, the majority of Engineers take their professionalism, their work standards and intergrity very seriously! The standards remain consist overall, the integrity is severely tested ad nausea by the employers. Hence we find the Canadian aviation business in the current condition. And i can promise you this, you nor i have yet to see just haw low it's going to go before it changes. Primairily because pilots are are so engraged in maintain their own interests that they won't notice the fact that the owners are letting maintenance slide. I've seen it! TCCA won't do anythingf because they are only concerned about their own job security.

The AMEs ARE doing something, - we're leaving! And it's NOT all about the money! it's about being pushed to lower our individual standards, to pencil whip things, to let things slide and to maintain the status quo for ever dwindling benefits (f any) and increased workload /hours,

AME s , We need to fix the house before we try to fix the community. Act like professionals, then demand to be treated likewise.



Overall our house ins't in diasarray. it's the owners/operators houses that are disarray. Engineers changing the way they look, talk, walk and smell WON'T change the owners/drivers perspective of an AME. Walking away from the industry won't immediately do anything either....yet. But wait a while!!
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c170b53
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

Post by c170b53 »

During the past spring when AC was in Negots, I stated that AC mech's were paid below the industry standard which drew the attention of a poster. You can see those threads under AC forum. I get paid around 32/HR, pay into a pension plan that is under water, have to pay for my health care, OT is 1.5 hr, not paid OT for travel time on rescue missions. I've also mentioned that many have gone to work for transit and are now happy. The greatest change in our industry is the gas-bar approach to maintenance. Large companies want to farm out heavy to third party. To do so they have destroyed the facilities and the infrastructure to maintain aircraft, by laying-off the AME. Although through time the AME has become more accepting of this fate, aircraft when they break have not been cooperating in the same fashion.
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Pat Richard
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

Post by Pat Richard »

Once again, Bullet, human factors, Cat, Sept, BRV,and most everyone else - Great post's.

godsrcrazy, you seem to be associating prettier costumes with higher intelligence, which surprisingly would account for several a pilots attitude about themselves. Go figure.
I think perhaps from now on I'll refrain from correcting hour/cycles totals that some genius pilot manged to screw up AGAIN. I won't even touch on the steady spelling mistakes either. I could also bring up the general deer in the headlights look when I ask one those future astronauts a simple question, concerning a snag they have written, etc, etc.
I could go on, but I'll leave it at this, the BIGGEST morons I've ever dealt with in this biz have been pilots, always enhanced by arrogance.
I'm not saying none exist on the wrenching side, they most definitely do, but the grandest have always been pilots.

I don't want to see this turn into pilot vs. ame pissfest, because mostly it isn't an issue, just "individuals" announcing themselves, but with regards to costumes, I could really care less.
When plumbers start showing up in tuxes, ok, I might warm up to it, but we have a long ways to go to even MATCH what plumbers have before we worry about modeling. For right now, pay me a realistic rate and I'll worry about looking cute when I go anywhere but work, not impressing management/HR/pilots with style points. They should be impressed/grateful enough as is for what we do.
Attitude, Immature and negative, like little children, grow up folks.


You're comparing us to pilots, right?? Unbelievable. How would you like me to spend some time digging through the "General Comments" area, and post some links to some mature, positive, adult dialog that has been posted there??
crazy_aviator wrote:
pilot litteracy. Its been my grim discovery that your average human being these days has little or no common sense in writing stuff on paper, absolutely poor spelling, damnable basic arithmetic skills and negligible legibility.
Twenty dollars please ( I had to do that :lol: ) I do agree that literacy is at an all time low . My grammar is good but my handwriting legibility is atrocious !!! AND IM NOT CRAZY, I JUST WORK IN AVIATION ! :? :?:
You forgot to specify that you don't include "PILOTS" when making that statement

Pat out.
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

Post by Cat Driver »

I can teach the average AME how to fly an airplane in about one thenth the time I can teach the average pilot to figure out what is wrong with an airplane and then fix it.

I have a personal benchmark concerning pilots that I have formed over the decades of working in aviation.

About five percent of pilots are gifted aviators who can not only fly but they can be relied on to make make good decisions.

About three of those five percenters are also gifted mechanics.

That three percent are the ones to hire even if you don't really need them at the moment. :smt040

Even if they are foul mouthed and don't dress like royalty. :mrgreen:
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crazy_aviator
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

Post by crazy_aviator »

Boy, did i step onto a land mine with that post!! lol However, i did help stimulate the thread. My primary field is AME, secondary is pilot. I understand the shortcomings of both professions and the general psychological make-up of both pilots and engineers. Great posts !!!
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

Post by Bullet Remington »

crazy_aviator wrote:Boy, did i step onto a land mine with that post!! lol However, i did help stimulate the thread. My primary field is AME, secondary is pilot. I understand the shortcomings of both professions and the general psychological make-up of both pilots and engineers. Great posts !!!

CA:

I beg to differ! I don't see any contribution nor stimulation of any thing thats remotely related to the thread. Rather, I see that the thread has been hijacked! Your statements had nothing to do with the discussions of working conditions, the pay , morale nor the benefits the industry provides, or more correctly DON'T provide to the AME! They were and are, hoewever, condesending, insultuous and demeaning to AMEs. I like a good discussion, even if I am disagreeing with another poster. BUT, a derogatry group of statements encompassing all AMEs is non constructive, nor contributory!

Like you, my background is 35 years AME, and 20 plus years as a Commercial Driver. I became a driver because I didn't understand all the puppy yapping about how drivers deserved more money because their job was so demanding and difficult! And after all these years I still don't understand how a driver can stand there with a straight face and spout that crap! I'm an AME because I like to have a job (or I liked To have a job) that makes me think! AND, the whining from the cockpit was constantly giving me a headache, and damaging the hearing in my right ear! NOT the noise from the turbine, but rather the whinning from the snot nose in the right seat whinning how he should be a captain and he was just as good as eveybody else because he had 40 hours on this machine!!

Having said that, after 35 years as an AME and 20 plus as a driver, a Masters Degree with a minor is Psycology, I still have no freakin idea of the psycological make up of neither pilots nor engineers, other then the fact that generally drivers like attention and if they don't get it they create it themselves; while engineers have a tendency to solitary people who shun attention and have a strong distrust for any driver that attempts to get too close!.

So how about you give us you analogy of the AME.s per chance you'll open a plethora of easily rectified faults that will magically enable us all to get back into the business and earn mega dollars!!

Now THAT's how you hijack a thread!! :roll: :lol:
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

Post by billy ray valintine »

why is it that every time we AME'S have a valid discussion regarding OUR concerns and try to get the managers/owners to join in with their point of view,some pilot chimes in and starts putting AME'S down with his/her verbal diarrhea! pilots have no idea what it takes to do our job.
yet another reason AME'S are leaving the industry.
pilots: go to the "general comments" section and spout off there!

BRV
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crazy_aviator
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

Post by crazy_aviator »

Bullet, if i recall correctly , the thread was already hijacked when i made the rant. I meant employers when i wrote employees sorry!
As a long time AME who appreciates and respects fellow AME s , i was being constructive when i wrote about us fellas looking at the mirror first before we point fingers elsewhere. I AGREE with you and I have been through most everythng printed here concerning working conditions, pay, lack of respect, pressuring to sign-off A/C etc. It is NOT presently fair for AME s in this industry, never was and problably never will be! My statements were aimed at those who were behaving in a manner which was not helping the MAJORITY of AME s who dont fall into those categories. I agree completely with your reply to my rant and i also sense that you understand the psychological make-up of pilots and AME s, so we dont need to go there.
Ironically, pilots come across as more intelligent but often are less,,and engineers come across as less intelligent, but are often more intelligent!
Now, back to un-hyjacking the thread ,,,,,,, If i was posting a job ad, i would specifically state the conditions, the pay range, benefits, and any other pertinant information as IF the company was advertising for a doctor or a rocket engineer ( Just like McDonalds does )
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PJ1
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

Post by PJ1 »

Took this from another thread on here.

"WOW. I was really not expecting it to be a downward industry. Flooring was a great job full benifits $35 per hour Union and as much overtime as I wanted at time and a half."

How many AME's honestly make $35 an hour. Some but not many.....

The one thing I found was that after 15 years of aviation. The skills I learned/developed are very transferable to just about anything out there. Being out of aviation now, I am in learning mode once again, having a solid backround in pneumatics, avionics, hydraulics, structures, piston and turbine engines along with disciplined book keeping, makes it really easy to learn new things.

Sorry for the hijack, good thread, once again the pay sucks.
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AME 283
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

Post by AME 283 »

:prayer: Excellent posts and I wish more employers would sit up and listen. There are lots of other industries that prefer the AME qualifications i.e. amusement parks, transit companies, industrial companies just to name a few. We are not attracting the cream of the crop any more, and a lot of our work i.e. heavy maintenance has gone to the third world countries. We also need to take over our own destiny, Transport dumbing down the license to the point that no one knows what it means has not helped. Automotive and truck mechanics get a lot more $$$ and do not have similar responsibilities, nor do they have to sign any thing.

This discussion has been good and we need a lot more discussions and actions to keep the AME obsession alive, and I say obsession as the conditions are terrible, the money is not good, the hours are terrible, social life is limited, so why are most of us still working as AMEs ??

Thanks for listening
:prayer:
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

Post by Bullet Remington »

AME 283:

As far as AMEs in general are concerned, the obsession is gone, replaced by the realization that we have been dry fornicated for eons! The obsession has been replaced by the realization that there is no future for AMEs; only years of unappreciated, non-respected, under compensated and overworked expections, by inherently self absorbed, and self entitled operators/owners, that the AME will continue to 'suck up"the imposed abuse and be grateful that are earning what they are earning!

Some of these operators feel it quite acceptable and have an incomprehensible expectation that an AME has an obligation to be available at the beck and call of these operators 24/7 365 days a year!

So in answer to your question, MOST of us are NOT working as AMEs. In fact, most are working at Transit Authorities, Wind turbine maintenance, oil Field turbine maintenance, Canada post Mechanical maintenance, trucking companies as Reefer mechs/ heavy duty mechs, Limo companies as mechs, oil field suppliers as shippers/ recievers, etc, etc. Those that ARE still working as AMEs, for the most part, feel they have no other ecourse and must stick with what they have. Usualy because of their unfamilarity with the unknown. And usually, once they are made aware of how easy it is to get work with respectable pay, hours, benefits, and even a life, they turn tail and tell the operators/owner where to shove this feckin business!


The sadest realization, to me anyways, is the lack of support the line/floor engineer recieves from the AME direct Supervisors ; I.E. DOM. Maintenance manages, etc. I recall one situation where there was a well written and presented, justifiable wage increase request submitted to the wage review board by a certian Director in Mainetance (not the DOM) ; While the wage increase was approved, in principle by the reviewing board, it was shot down by the director himself! AND, KNOWING I was on the review board, he had the audicty to tel his subordinates that he fought tooth and nail but the increase was shot down!`This happens much more often then people realize! I could name two Director of Maintenace for TWO Northern operators that wouldn't stand up for their folks as well. So while I shit on operators and owners, IF the Maingtenance mangers don't have enough balls to stand up to the operaors/owners, we have to do it on our own!

And, in a round about way, we ARE doing that! WE have already stated, SHOW ME THE FECKIN MONEY. The owners/operators have refused and they have ended up in the position they are currently in. They will still get some assinine idiot to work for them, there will always be some moronic idiot that wants to be a manager, but isn't smart enough to realize that he doesn't have the experience level and the knowledge to correctly do the job! The owners/operators will suck these folks in, chew them up and spit em out! This will happen until TCCA pulls the OC after a couple of majoer accidents. Mark my words, it's not a matter of IF, its a matter of when! I'll put money on it!

My recommendation is: if you can;t get what you whnat and neeed from aviation, get out! There's more to be earned, (and NOT just money) from outside of aviation then in!
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

Post by Bullet Remington »

planemikey wrote:Planefixer and Pat Richard going direct is an Idea but thats where it ends. here's just a few reason's why :
Mikey, Mikey-that's NOT entirely true! But Understanding that you are attempting to secure your job security I understand your statements, despite my perception that they maybe a be askewed in your favour!

1) The corporations looking for the engineers have HR departments that basically don't know one engineer from the other. The "agencies" through years of industry knowledge of both matching an engineer with a product and task has a better chance of being succesful in getting the right person .This is NOT enitrely true, While YOUR agency has a licensed Engineer on staff, i know several other agencies that have NO engineer NOR aviation trained people on staff! So comparing your company with ALL contract agencies isn't correct!
2) Using an agency keeps the contractors at an arms length from the DOM ,PRM so as to not promote favoritism and hassles of phone calls , anger and resentment .This isn't a major concern for PRMs / DOM. In MOST cases the contractor/s are left to their own in the field anyways. USUALLY the contractor is brought in because he/she possess a speciality skill / endorsement NOT available from In-HOUSE personnel. In essence, the DOM my have no idea what the contractor is doing NOT doing and depends upon the contractor to do what he/she has been hired to do.
3) Using another corporation ensures : That their premises are insured , their WCB is not compormised by a disguntled contractor and is provided . Huh? getting a ECB number is cheap as dirt and easy. Again, most companies require that the contractor have this BEFORE they arrive on the premises. Insurance is CHEAP as well. Having said that , I have never been required to show proof of insurance 9 evne though I have it) to any employer/company. AND, after contacting 7 companies in Western canada that use Mikey's agency and others, they (the company) stated that they didn't require a contractor to carry individual insurance,rather the contractor was covered under the company's insurance.
4) One contract one rate no hassles , flights , accomodations all arranged Huh? That's USUALLY a given! look at the rates posted by your latest ad. Funny thing is it's the exact same rate as those posted by three other contract agencies looking to fill the exact same positions. AND it matters little who arranges the hotels, flights etc, etc. Your stance on this issue has no bearing on the AME, rather it is the responsibility of the company, not the AME, so moot point!
5) When or if the hirer has issues with a contracter its the agency that has to pay that person , and to pay to get them out of town and that agency then has to put someone else in at no cost to the Hirer .SURPRISE! Doesn't matter WHO has an issue, contract agency or the employer! The employer is responsible UNDER LAW to get the contractor in, and out. Both at the completion of the contract and termination of the contract - assuming of course that the company terminates the working agreement BEFORE the agreed upon completion dtae!
6) Hirer coensn't have to deal with contractors wanting advances, invoices and time cards not matching etc... and they can pay the agencies in 90 days and in most circumstances do .Wouldn' I like a free 90 day loan !!Now that's funny!!While I have never had to seek an advance, etc I know at least 4 people that were in dire situations and went seeking assistance from the Contractor placement agency - the same agency that they had done several contracts through previously - the agency essentially told em to GFYS. And Good Luck with that 90 day loan. You shouldn't need it if you are still getting paid in advance, so why are you asking??
7) When the AMO or Airline goes tits up and files for bankruptcy is is less personal to shaft an agency which also happens. Over seas companies sometimes don't pay no matter what and the contractor is still paid through the agency. This is part and parcel of business. having stated that, the history of contractor being burnt by companies going Tits up are miniscule. And the number of AMEs being burned by companies going TITS up are the same. HOWEVER, when we compare the number of AMEs burnt by contract placement agencies, the number rises expotentially
8) The agency provides a legal buffer from the CCRA in that the engineer is a contractor not a temporary employee which is huge $$ Now this statement is absolute bullshit!! A contractor in 99% of the cases that I have dealt with HAS TO HAVE A GST number. This means that the contractor is either a proprietorship OR a company. EITHER way, the contractor is obligated by law to pay CCRA, NOT the company
9) When the Agencies engineer has a heart Attack the agency pays for the Medivac ...

......and on and on it goes .
Add to that the current back stabbing within the industry of engineers underbidding each other to get work and you can see this will not work. Some Companies :) are trying this and rubbing their hands together in glee taking advantage of the engineers and using engineers that were provided to them before by the agency but when things pick back up this will turn sour.... Agencies and engineers , despite all the rederict , have great memories
Geez, I haven't seen ä lot"of back stabbing between AMEs, here Mike. I have seen a lot of whittling of öther agencies"by contract placement agencies. Having said that, I'm not implying it doesn't happen! I'm sure it does! What i'm saying is that your stance as you've stated here, isn't necessarily any better for the AME then what they are gettin now as a full time employee. By NOT going through a contrcator placement company,my hourly rate jumps 20 to 25.00 WITHOUT negogiating! This rate increase more then off sets any added costs including emergency transport out should a Medivac be required, WCB , CCRA taxes, etc, etc.

Having stated that, there will always be people that will want to use the services of an agency. And i have no difficulty accepting that...for them. However, in my case, i can show where I earned 31,00 additional over 18 monyths, by NOT using a contract placement agency. And I know, pretty well to the penny what MOST companies ( at least three) pay an agency per engineer. I'd much rather prefer that this money go into my bank account rather then the agency. The agency is NOT there to secure the best interest of the AME. rather they are similiar to the AME in that their interest is paramount! If some wish t use an agency ,have at er. I can do much better on my own! As can most other AMEs.
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Pat Richard
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

Post by Pat Richard »

Bullet Remington wrote:
planemikey wrote:Planefixer and Pat Richard going direct is an Idea but thats where it ends. here's just a few reason's why :
Mikey, Mikey-that's NOT entirely true! But Understanding that you are attempting to secure your job security I understand your statements, despite my perception that they maybe a be askewed in your favour!

1) The corporations looking for the engineers have HR departments that basically don't know one engineer from the other. The "agencies" through years of industry knowledge of both matching an engineer with a product and task has a better chance of being succesful in getting the right person .This is NOT enitrely true, While YOUR agency has a licensed Engineer on staff, i know several other agencies that have NO engineer NOR aviation trained people on staff! So comparing your company with ALL contract agencies isn't correct!
2) Using an agency keeps the contractors at an arms length from the DOM ,PRM so as to not promote favoritism and hassles of phone calls , anger and resentment .This isn't a major concern for PRMs / DOM. In MOST cases the contractor/s are left to their own in the field anyways. USUALLY the contractor is brought in because he/she possess a speciality skill / endorsement NOT available from In-HOUSE personnel. In essence, the DOM my have no idea what the contractor is doing NOT doing and depends upon the contractor to do what he/she has been hired to do.
3) Using another corporation ensures : That their premises are insured , their WCB is not compormised by a disguntled contractor and is provided . Huh? getting a ECB number is cheap as dirt and easy. Again, most companies require that the contractor have this BEFORE they arrive on the premises. Insurance is CHEAP as well. Having said that , I have never been required to show proof of insurance 9 evne though I have it) to any employer/company. AND, after contacting 7 companies in Western canada that use Mikey's agency and others, they (the company) stated that they didn't require a contractor to carry individual insurance,rather the contractor was covered under the company's insurance.
4) One contract one rate no hassles , flights , accomodations all arranged Huh? That's USUALLY a given! look at the rates posted by your latest ad. Funny thing is it's the exact same rate as those posted by three other contract agencies looking to fill the exact same positions. AND it matters little who arranges the hotels, flights etc, etc. Your stance on this issue has no bearing on the AME, rather it is the responsibility of the company, not the AME, so moot point!
5) When or if the hirer has issues with a contracter its the agency that has to pay that person , and to pay to get them out of town and that agency then has to put someone else in at no cost to the Hirer .SURPRISE! Doesn't matter WHO has an issue, contract agency or the employer! The employer is responsible UNDER LAW to get the contractor in, and out. Both at the completion of the contract and termination of the contract - assuming of course that the company terminates the working agreement BEFORE the agreed upon completion dtae!
6) Hirer coensn't have to deal with contractors wanting advances, invoices and time cards not matching etc... and they can pay the agencies in 90 days and in most circumstances do .Wouldn' I like a free 90 day loan !!Now that's funny!!While I have never had to seek an advance, etc I know at least 4 people that were in dire situations and went seeking assistance from the Contractor placement agency - the same agency that they had done several contracts through previously - the agency essentially told em to GFYS. And Good Luck with that 90 day loan. You shouldn't need it if you are still getting paid in advance, so why are you asking??
7) When the AMO or Airline goes tits up and files for bankruptcy is is less personal to shaft an agency which also happens. Over seas companies sometimes don't pay no matter what and the contractor is still paid through the agency. This is part and parcel of business. having stated that, the history of contractor being burnt by companies going Tits up are miniscule. And the number of AMEs being burned by companies going TITS up are the same. HOWEVER, when we compare the number of AMEs burnt by contract placement agencies, the number rises expotentially
8) The agency provides a legal buffer from the CCRA in that the engineer is a contractor not a temporary employee which is huge $$ Now this statement is absolute bullshit!! A contractor in 99% of the cases that I have dealt with HAS TO HAVE A GST number. This means that the contractor is either a proprietorship OR a company. EITHER way, the contractor is obligated by law to pay CCRA, NOT the company
i understand that being set up as a company completely removes tax responsibility from the employer. What buffer exactly does an agency provide?? I don't ever recall collecting tax from me.
9) When the Agencies engineer has a heart Attack the agency pays for the Medivac ...Can you be specific? As far as I can remember, provincial air ambulances transported to/from their respected provinces, as long as the patient was current with MSP. What scenario demands separate payment for this in Canada?

......and on and on it goes .
Add to that the current back stabbing within the industry of engineers underbidding each other to get work and you can see this will not work. Some Companies :) are trying this and rubbing their hands together in glee taking advantage of the engineers and using engineers that were provided to them before by the agency but when things pick back up this will turn sour.... Agencies and engineers , despite all the rederict , have great memories
Geez, I haven't seen ä lot"of back stabbing between AMEs, here Mike. I have seen a lot of whittling of öther agencies"by contract placement agencies. Having said that, I'm not implying it doesn't happen! I'm sure it does! What i'm saying is that your stance as you've stated here, isn't necessarily any better for the AME then what they are gettin now as a full time employee. By NOT going through a contrcator placement company,my hourly rate jumps 20 to 25.00 WITHOUT negogiating! This rate increase more then off sets any added costs including emergency transport out should a Medivac be required, WCB , CCRA taxes, etc, etc.

Having stated that, there will always be people that will want to use the services of an agency. And i have no difficulty accepting that...for them. However, in my case, i can show where I earned 31,00 additional over 18 monyths, by NOT using a contract placement agency. And I know, pretty well to the penny what MOST companies ( at least three) pay an agency per engineer. I'd much rather prefer that this money go into my bank account rather then the agency. The agency is NOT there to secure the best interest of the AME. rather they are similiar to the AME in that their interest is paramount! If some wish t use an agency ,have at er. I can do much better on my own! As can most other AMEs.

I was in the process of researching some of mikeys replies, but BR beat me to it :) The compo and tax stuff I new to be false, and the insurance part has never been asked for by any company when i went direct. It was always that I was under house insurance. Don't know why there is such a discrepancy in opinion on this point.
For me personally, it's time to see some decent increase in pay for what I have proven I can do, and that just isn't happening with any agency. The pros outweigh the cons when it comes to earning 20-25 more an hour, and I'm perfectly capable of booking my own flights/accommodation if needed. Generally, even this is handled by the company bringing the contractor in.
Other than taking phone calls, making phone calls/sending emails, I don't see the value in the current crop of agencies. I know there are some individuals who would be lost without having all the above done for them, but these are the same ones, from personal experience, that are the most useless twats.

"You get what you pay for." also applies to agencies, so I'll say again to the companies looking for good guys - pay higher to your staff, or hire contractors direct for what you're currently paying agencies for them, and don't *uck them around.

You WILL be surprised at what REALLY is available.
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