what would you do?

water wings · Post by **water wings** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 7:59 am

this is just a hypothetical situation, that i believe might be becoming reality.
a former colleague has just been chosen for a job over you, as they have more time on a specific type.
you, as well as one other former colleague and supervisor are 95% sure they do NOT have said time they claim to have.
they have indeed upped their logbook contents to get said job. AC Logbooks and the fact that is is physically impossible to have logged said amount of hours in a specific time (400+ on a specific type while flying another aircraft in less than 2 months) are what leads us to be suspicious...
Would you let Karma take it's course, or risk having the 5% doubt be truth if you rat on them, or just hope they don't take someone down with them and wish them luck.
once again, just a question.
i hope it remains hypothetical....

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 8:20 am

I worked with a guy just as you described years ago. Trust me, what goes around comes around. People who do that, usually bring trouble to themselves.

Transport discovered his creative work and he nearly lost his licence, agreeing instead to a hefty fine. This is public record for any potential employer to see. Since that time, he has had nothing but a lousy career never getting beyond one airline shut down to another. The latest, Jetsgo.

To answer your question, look after your career. Padding his book may help in the short term but a flying career is a marathon, not a sprint. The truth almost always come to light.

Pugster · Post by **Pugster** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 8:23 am

Karma taking it's course could mean said cowboy could pile a perfectly good airplane full of perfectly good people into a mountainside.

Tough call if the guy is experienced and a decent guy - but if he's moron I'd confront him. If that didn't work, well, an anonymous email to the CP would get the ball rolling...

Pugster

BTW - anyone looking for an IFR flight instructor with...ummm...1000TT, and 1200, no wait, I mean 750 hours in a B1900D?

scotothedoublet · Post by **scotothedoublet** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 8:25 am

Sounds like your supervisor's problem (or whoever's hiring them). If you're completely sure it's BS, I would just make that shovelling motion everytime they spoke. When they ask you about it, just explain that you have a sore shoulder and wait for karma to kick in.

Have fun.

flynbutcher · Post by **flynbutcher** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 8:29 am

Rat the bastard out. (maybe bastard is too harsh a word, he's probably a fine fellow) It's almost as bad as paying for a job!

tater salad · Post by **tater salad** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 9:31 am

My father has been flying for over 25 yrs now,
couple years back he hired a guy that apparently had 400+ hours on a beaver right, well there first flight out, they got into the plane. as the kid went to start it had to ask where the primer was, well he was fired on the spot.

Last season a operator outta northwestern Ontario hired a guy that said he had the time on type, they did the neccesary training, his first flight on his own he burried the plane in killing all on board, after checking into it, he only had about 30 hours on the aircraft.

Point is that doctoring your log book will get you the job, but your performance in a aircraft will show. It's usually pretty damn easy to tell a 2000 hr pilot from a 750 hour pilot.

If safety is going to be a concern with this particular guy then send a email so they can do somemore checking on this guy

happy flights guys

Northern Flyer · Post by **Northern Flyer** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 10:15 am

First let me say I don't agree with padding your logbook.

But honestly do you all think that it matters if a guy has 2100 or 2500 hours? Or if a guy has 30 hours on type or 100 hours? Is a guy at 30 hours expected to plow the aircraft into the trees? Man I've flown quite a few aircraft, and at one time or another I had less than 30 hours on type, I'm still here.

I'm not an instructer, but I train alot of pilots, I can tell in the first five minutes if the canadate has any skill at all. Some pilots have the skills, and would be successful in any aircraft, a few pilots are basicly fooling themselves because they should never have been given a PPL.

So, It really sucks when people cheat to get ahead you should take them out back and kick there ass. My point is you should not think that someone is a danger to sociaty because he is lacking in the log book a little. Air force pilots do carrier landings with under 400TT, and how much time did Armstring have in an Appolo shuttle before landing on the moon?

CAWI · Post by **CAWI** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 10:21 am

I know a few people who have upped thier hours. Alot actually. One went to Jetsgo. Now where is he. I think you get yours in the end.

water wings · Post by **water wings** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 10:47 am

well, Northern FLyer, i so agree with you. It's not the lack of hours that kills people at all. Some people with 10 hours are able to fly better than others with 1000 hours. sigh...
well, kids, thanks for all your replies. Here is what i think i am going to do: let it ride. The guy is not a bad person, nor do i believe he is dangerous. He is a good pilot that oddly enough has no intention of screwing people consciously - he's just a dick. And i think he has self administered Stockholm syndrome - sympathizes with himself and believes his own BS. I hope to hell he doesn't toast himself or others, but i do hope he bends a float, or fries a turbine.
It is hard enough for folks to get jobs these days, never like to see anyone get cheated.
i know it takes a long time, and is almost impossible to access much of the info, but it's too bad employers don't actually go through logbooks thoroughly. But, if you're like me, you trust people.
That's all, folks.
thanks for your replies.

Siddley Hawker · Post by **Siddley Hawker** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 11:33 am

Here's my experience with that sort of thing.

I once worked for a company that had one of those guys where some people wondered where he gotten the time. The accident investigation finally figured it out. The guy would see an Aztec taking off, check the registration, and lo and behold! the next morning he'd have a couple of hours on Aztec CF-ABC. He, along with three passengers, were killed in a 310 out taking aerial photos of a ship caught in the ice out by Anticosti Island. They never found a trace of the aircraft or the people onboard.

In a second instance with another outfit, I was flying the Beaver and the 185 on floats and also co-pilot on the DC-3. The company hired a guy with 300 or so hours on the 185. The CP was supposed to check him out one morning, so I was quite surprised when later that afternoon I came back off the DC-3 sched and had a call to go do a trip with the 185. I asked the dispatcher where the new guy was, and the answer was "He's no longer with us." Turns out they started doing touch and go's and the guy was having problems on the roundout, he'd fly the airplane right down to the water. On the third one, he dug the airplane in so bad all the crap in the baggage compartment - ration kit, funnel, oil cans etc. - was thrown up against the backs of the front seats. It turned out the guy had a bare minimum float endorsement, maybe 5 hours total, and except for that had never flown the 185 in his life. A couple of years later he killed himself in a DC-3 when he let down below the MEA and flew into a mountain north of Quebec City. The co-pilot on that flight was a good friend of mine, so my view concerning pilots who say they have experience when they don't is probably coloured.

water wings · Post by **water wings** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 11:43 am

jesus, siddley, whatcha go and have to write that for? i was all comfortable in my decision...now i'm torn again. I must say, the bastard that took your friend with them sounds like no matter how many hours he had, he would be a menace to safety. My condolences, albeit belated. I will take your advice to heart.
and i am now more convinced than ever that employers must take the time to look into the pilot's hours. Nothing to hide, then nothing to fear.

... · Post by **...** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 11:45 am

Fry 'em...or wait until Mike The White starts another airline...that otta learn 'em.

Siddley Hawker · Post by **Siddley Hawker** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 3:57 pm

Sorry if I made ya uncomfortable there, ww. That surely wasn't my intention. The events I described happened nearly 40 years ago. From my point of view, I think someone who'd stretch the truth about his or her experience can very often get away with it. The lack of experience will only show up when the shit hits the fan. When or if that happens it'll sure come back to haunt those who could maybe have done something about it right off the bat, with perhaps a discreet word in the ear of a person in charge. Discreet being the operational word here.

nite_owl · Post by **nite_owl** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 4:26 pm

It is a$$holes like your buddy, who when the odds catch up to him drive up the cost of insurance making it near to impossible for the inexperienced to get a foot in the door.
I'd rather work with someone inexperienced and open to a little guidance than someone who claims to have the experience, doesn't really, and can't perform to save his life.
Decent training and experience show. Usually those lying about their time are only fooling themselves.
What goes around comes around too, and chances are pretty good your buddy will get discovered. Some operator in the mean time though,has to risk his passengers, equipment and reputation on this prick.
I say make the call!

JigglyBus · Post by **JigglyBus** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 4:51 pm

Easy.

Call the new CP and let him know your opinion.

Call TC and let them know as well. (Not sure if they'll care)

If you are wrong, there is absolutely no harm to the other guy.

If you are right, then you've stopped a jackass of getting ahead of you, me and everyone else.

It's important to remember that if they did no wrong, then they have nothing to fear, but if they do, then they brought it on themselves.

Good luck.

GoWrench · Post by **GoWrench** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 7:14 pm

IMHO, as an aircraft mechanic, soon to be engineer, I find myself reading this thread with dismay. I would let a little bird start chirping about this guys doctored time. How comfortable would you be if an unqualified person was maintaining your aircraft? What if said mechanic doctored up his logbook, maybe a fake AME license?
Turn him in, because it could be my family on that aircraft, and if they were to be hurt or killed because of an inexperienced pilot, I would seek retribution, not only from the company he worked for, but of anyone that even suspected he couldn't cut it.
Please don't take this as a mechanic vs pilot issue. I just find it very hard to believe that there is any doubt as to what is the right thing to do.
Perhaps its just my perspective of how I do my job. I am used to and expect to have my work inspected, as do I inspect someone else's work, just to ensure there were no mistakes made.
If you have any doubt as to whether this person has what it takes, find a way to have your concerns investigated.
I don't envy your position, but if people's lives could be at risk, again in my very humble opinion, turn him in.
Cheers Nick.

flynbutcher · Post by **flynbutcher** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 7:58 pm

Good point Go Wrench. WW, obviously only you can turn this guy in, hopefully you'll do the right thing, we're not talking about some guy that cheated on a math test here, it could potentially be a matter of lives being lost. Hope you make the right call. Let us know how you made out.

. . · Post by **. .** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 9:22 pm

I agree. If someone is lying about their skill set to gain employment then that is clearly not right. This is a totally different situation than someone coming down from a flight and glorifing the massive crosswind they battled and how perfectly they flew.

lowandslow · Post by **lowandslow** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 9:42 pm

okay here is a spin off..
someone has their written atpls' complete, but are going to be useless soon as 2 years are almost up wihthout attaining the time for the full atpl. They are missing say 3 hours night pic. Does it really matter if that is 'beefed' up so that you don't have to rewrite the writtens again???

J.P.WISER · Post by **J.P.WISER** » Sun Mar 20, 2005 9:57 pm

Go rent three hours if the test are that hard!!!!

The practice wont hurt ya.

what would you do?

what would you do?

Let a little bird start chirping.