Maintenance Engineers

This forum has been developed to discuss maintenance topics in Canada.

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crc_66
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

Post by crc_66 »

This post is for all those companies that are looking for experience engineers.
It is fine to look for qualified poeple to do the maintenance on your planes, but at the same time us engineers would like to get paid for our qualifications. I did not go to school for 2 years and apprentice for more than that to get $20-$25 dollars/hr. I CAN FIX TOILETS FOR THAT AMOUNT. Like some post that I have read, you go and look for workers on these recruting companies that charge you 70/hr and we get paid 30-40. Where is the rest of the money goes.? to some one that collects resumes and nothing more. Why not pay these engineers top money for their qualities instead of given the money to recruters. I would work any where for $70/hr and I will fix your planes the right way the first time. You rather hire apprentices for peanuts and expect quality work. I rather hire someone that has been in the industry for many years, even if they have no experience on the type of planes you operate. We have the knowlege and the ability to read manuals and I am sure with a little bit of help from the experts we can do the same job.
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Pat Richard
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

Post by Pat Richard »

bump :D
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lupin
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

Post by lupin »

In my opinion,

The situation AMEs face through out the industry is due to our past actions or inaction. We can blame management for all that ails us but as a group, we never organized. We always walk alone and tend to our own thing. In life, if you do not organize, you get organized. One can think that he can fend for himself but when you are faced with large corporations, you will find out that your influence as an individual is quite limited.

Companies have large resources compared to the individual AME. They can easily compose a business plan with a mission, objectives and the methods that will be used to obtain these objectives. They also have the funds necessary to set out this plan into action. We don’t even have the structure to compose a plan to address our concerns… we are totally dependent on what the corporations want.

The various industry groups are controlled by managers whose interests are directed by large corporations. Whether you think of CARAC or the AME associations, the people involved in these groups are generally managers or delegates from the big corporations. Just look at the corporate sponsors for all the AME association, sponsorship usually implies a liability towards these entities. These companies don’t blindly give out funds to help the AME associations, they expect some sort of immediate or future considerations in return.

This isn’t speech for unions, as I don’t believe any union has an adequate structure to address our needs as AMEs. What we need is some sort of organized association to address our concerns and properly represent us. A professional body similar to what the doctors, accountants and lawyers have. We need a clear unified voice at Transport Canada, in order to get our interests represented. We need a clear voice at CARAC in order to balance the influence that is currently enjoyed by the big guns. Right now, Air Canada, Westjet, Bombardier, Pratt & Whitney, Transat, Jazz and a few other yield all the influence at those councils and as a result, the AMEs have little influence on their trades. How many of the last licensing changes have been done to improve our trade? Ever wonder why?

SMS is a great example of this. The corporations pushing this, all love the idea of self audit but the AMEs see what goes on every day. I have yet to meet an AME who hasn’t seen how companies pervert the principles of SMS to achieve their goals. And now, with a TC not doing any formal audits, everyone gets away without consequence if no accident happens. We are the only one on the planet using SMS. With all the latest kerflufal in the US (American with the MDs, Southwest with their 737 etc) I doubt the US will let the companies self supervise…

So in a way, our own inaction is the direct cause of where we are today. We are the puppets in a system controlled by large corporations. We think our influence is great but in the big scheme of things, it is quite limited.

My years in University have thought me allot on organization and the need for it. If we continue on wondering individually instead of moving in a specific generally unified direction, we will continue to be victims.

Many like the prospect of an AME shortage, yet they fail to see a danger in the shortage. If the large corporations ask Transport Canada for an alternate route to AME licensing, how will that affect us? Remember the government’s role is to help the corporations with their needs. A training initiative for AMEs is likely to be at the demand and with the requirements of these large corporations. Will the outcome be a watering down of our trade? What if, due to the lack of AMEs, TC accepts South Americans mechanics at par with the AME? How will that affect our trade, how will that affect the shortage that so many like to see? What if TC approves a learner program like was once the case at some large corporations? Is any regards to quality addressed in these changes? Will your voice be heard?

Today’s AME has great training and an impressive knowledge base. Our knowledge transfers very easily to other trades such as heavy equipment maintenance, transit, electrical work, millwrights etc. Most prefer to jump ship and work in another trade then to get involved with the organization of our profession. Maybe that is our downfall….

Lupin
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Pat Richard
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

Post by Pat Richard »

Hey mods, any chance of making this thread a sticky??

lots of the same facts being posted here, might help the newbs coming on here with the same questions about being a mechanic these days.

Just a thought...
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ourkid2000
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

Post by ourkid2000 »

Pat Richard wrote:Hey mods, any chance of making this thread a sticky??

lots of the same facts being posted here, might help the newbs coming on here with the same questions about being a mechanic these days.

Just a thought...
+1 on this.........best thread I think I have ever been involved with period.
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hoptwoit
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

Post by hoptwoit »

I have said this before and I will say it again the “Trade” of Aircraft Maintenance Engineer must become a restricted trade. Meaning that no one may do the work of an AME unless signed up as an apprentice (with the apprenticeship board each province has one). This regulates the number of licensed journeyman to apprentice ratio (Heavy duty Equipment Technician is 1 to 1). The minimum wage of the apprentice is stipulated as a percentage of the company’s base licensed rate based on progress. Ie. 1st year 60% 2nd year 70% 3rd year 80% 4rth year 90%.

One of the reasons that aviation has lagged sadly is because of the way it is regulated at the federal level. Transport Canada really needs to look at the provincial model when looking at AME as a trade. Currently you could have 100 apprentices and one licensed guy signing off and it would be legal. There is no incentive for either the company or the employee to reach for the next level as an apprentice. The pay is crap (especially for apprentices) and there is no end in sight.

The provincial model is not perfect but it is a far more proactive approach to the AME trade than the current federal model.
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ourkid2000
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

Post by ourkid2000 »

hoptwoit,

To do what you suggest........what would it take? It seems the system we currently have is deeply entrenched and we would come up against massive resistance and quite likely....repercussions.

I'm not sure how it all happened really with AME's in the first place as every other trade went the more restricted route.
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mmartin1872
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

Post by mmartin1872 »

I've been arguing about this apprenticeship thing with ITABC (Industry training authority of BC) Revenue Canada, and a couple of Ministers (Flaherty, and another few, that i can't remember off the top of my head.) Mainly from the stand point of Tax Benefits, because all the red seal trades, and the Non red seal apprenticeships managed by ITABC, get tax benefits for being apprentices, and us as in industry don't. A lot of people have gone and filled in the Income tax forms, and taken advantage of the benefit, even though we aren't entitled to it, but if they where to get audited, Rev Canada would take away those tax deductions, and impose a fine on these people. I was trying to get the minister of human resources, or else the minister of finance, to approve the AME apprenticeship for the tax benefits, but they said that you had to talk to ITABC, ITABC says you have to join "their" program, which isn't A Transport Canada approved Apprenticeship program, And neither Government body (ITABC or Transport Canada) is going to want to relinquish power over their little domain, in order to benefit the AME or the AME apprentice.

It would be so much easier if Transport Canada just handed over the AME apprenticeship training to ITABC, and just "govern" the standards and regs that ITABC, (and all the other apprenticeship training government bodies in Canada) is to follow, but that would cost too many Transport Canada employees their jobs.

But then if it did cost employees their jobs, they could set up a "consulting" business for ITABC, and reap the benefits of "teaching" ITABC how to approve training, and the apprenticeship of AME's.

My thoughts have always been that maybe "ITABC" should be controlling the apprenticeship program, and the AME licensing, because that is all they do. But I don't see it happenning ever in our industry, because we as an industry, ussually just bend over, and take it.
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Bullet Remington
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

Post by Bullet Remington »

mmartin:

recognigtion of the AME as an approved apprenticeship is done at the provincial level, I BELIEVE! And i stand to be corrected. In Alberta, AME apprenticeship is a recogized apprenticeship. Here, (Alberta0 apprentices can realize the full benefits of the tax system, as can AME's. I was doing it when i was active in the aviation racket and my current AME does it annually. He gets full tax benefits.

Personally, and it may be just me, I don't want to see anything handed over to any beautacrat in BC. That province scares the crap outa me! i have a business office in YVR and every time I go there, I keep wondering why I tolerate the BS of the city, the province and the government!

Having said that, IF BC wanted to control the BC AMEs have at her!!! Just as long as they left the rest of canada alone, i'm good with that!
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mmartin1872
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

Post by mmartin1872 »

I was after it more for just the "tax benefits." I really don't care about the beauracrats, their jobs, or any of that stuff. I just wanted one person to say "AME's can use the tax benefits," but the federal government says that it is an issue to deal with the provincial Industry training authority, and the industry training authority says that the "federal government" has the right to approve or not approve it, not them.

ITABC has made it even harder by creating two bogus Aircraft Maintenance apprenticeships (Aircraft maintenance technician, and aircraft structures technician.)

When i was arguing with them, I was just a lowly AME "s" apprentice, trying to get the ability to use the provincial tax credits. But they had no "approved training schools on their list. of schools" And then you had to have a Aircraft structures technician (not an ame "s") say that you had done the hours required by them.

Well who in their right mind would go and apply for this "ITA" program. It was ridiculous. Now I notice they atleast have 3 schools approved for counting towards your ITA BS apprenticeship (which gets you no signing authority on civil aviation aircraft). And then they want you to Pay for taking tests with them, which help you in no way, and then pay for applying, and pay for all the other BS that they control. And on top of that you still have to pay Transport Canada. After it is all said and done, paying for the 2 groups of people, it was better not to even go for the tax credit. Because what was it $1200 or something along those lines, but on your tax return it made a difference of about $100 maybe $200.

I think that Canada should just make the AME apprenticeship a "Red Seal" trade. Because it virtually is. But it isn't because it is controlled by Transport Canadas regulations and standards instead of the acts/regulations/standards that control all the other apprenticeships in Canada. (I Believe it's HRSDC, or possibly the Canadian Council of Directors of Apprenticeship(it's been a while since i did the research)).

AME's are already controlled by beauracrats. The 3 good things of switching who controls the AME apprenticeship is (that i can think of anyways):
1. The tax benefits, being the same from province to province (Because here in BC i could not get approval for the AME 's' apprenticeship that I had done, and am doing again (I've decided to go for my "M" license now and am just waiting to have enough "tasks" signed off in my log book to go apply.)
2. the apprentice vs journeymen/licensed ame's that the other poster a couple of places up had mentioned. It would force employers to have more AME mechanics working on the equipment, and less apprentices doing the work. Which in turn would mean employers would have to pay skilled mechanics, in order to have unskilled mechanics working.
3. Being able to collect EI while going to school doing your apprenticeship training, unless of course you are lucky enough to get laid off just before school starts, get all the EI paperwork and hoops dealt with and enrolled in time to get into class.. All other apprentices get this benefit, but we do not.

Disadvantages that i can think of:
One more beauracrat for us to bend over for.
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Widow
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

Post by Widow »

hoptwoit wrote:One of the reasons that aviation has lagged sadly is because of the way it is regulated at the federal level. Transport Canada really needs to look at the provincial model when looking at AME as a trade.
Are there any other trades regulated federally that could be looked at for a model?

I find it very interesting to watch this discussion and compare it to the one going on in the general forum about the "College of Pilots". Many of the "complaints" heard from pilots are similar or identical to those heard here ...

If the CPPC is indeed looking at taking over pilot oversight under TC's new Safety Partnership Program, could this not be used in the same way to have an industry organization take over AME's?
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mmartin1872
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

Post by mmartin1872 »

Apprenticeship and Trades in general are regulated provincially. "Red Seal " Trades are trades that have applied for Red seal approval in Canada, by having the same course requirements/training requirements, in each province. The Canadian government (through legislation in the HRSDC acts/regulations i believe) handed over all apprenticeship training (except for AME's) to the Canadian Council of Directors of Apprenticeship, who in turn hands over the "keys" to the provincial entities (ITABC, AIT of Alberta, Ministry of Training, Colleges and Universities (ontario)).

To further complicate things, not all "red seal" trades in BC are considered red seal trades in, lets say Alberta. But the requirement is that atleast 2 or 3 provinces have to have that "specific" trade in their "apprenticeship programs that are controlled by ITA, AIT, MOTCU, etc." in order to apply for Red Seal Status.

You will find though, that most if not all "red seal" trades are country wide.

The issue is the fact, that nobody likes change, nobody likes losing jobs and control (the two different government enitities), and AME's in general, like to bend over, and well, you know the saying.

I myself, don't know what to do to solve the problem, but I do know what the problem is, and then I also, have fought long enough with the government, to just not give a rats ass anymore, other than in conversations like this, which get me all ryled up about how often, we get screwed over in this industry.
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iflyforpie
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

Post by iflyforpie »

Widow wrote:
hoptwoit wrote:One of the reasons that aviation has lagged sadly is because of the way it is regulated at the federal level. Transport Canada really needs to look at the provincial model when looking at AME as a trade.
Are there any other trades regulated federally that could be looked at for a model?
How about rail and marine? Both are federally regulated under TC.
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Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?
hoptwoit
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

Post by hoptwoit »

I am going to post a link here to a thread from a ways back. I have not researched if the information I posted is accurate as of today but it will give you an idea of the process of a restricted trade. At the time many of the provinces were starting to recognize the spaceship of an AME this is a step but in order to protect he quality of the trade (which in my opinion has already slipped) the restricted trade model would go along way to rectifying more than a few problems. I believe if properly implemented it could raise the quality of the training that an individual receives while apprenticing. Increase level of accomplishment and professionalism that an AME feels and conducts him of her self with. Improve the wages an individual receives across the trade at any experience level. Increase the quality of the maintenance that is performed. Perhaps most importantly increase the safety of the flying public.

Information note: The original thread was started as a low wage concern and there is a little heat in the debate but the information is all there. Even if it's a bit of a read. The restricted trade stuff doesn’t come in until page 3 or 4 but the preamble gives you a good idea of perspective when it comes to the acceptance of an AME as a skilled tradesman.

http://www.avcanada.ca//forums2/viewtop ... 27&t=23311
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markymarkl
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

Post by markymarkl »

A lot of good posts, back to the subject at hand-- DOM for this company ==is OK

BE VERY careful of the rest and DO your research on a few of the folks running the place! You have been warned!!!!!!!
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mmartin1872
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

Post by mmartin1872 »

I couldn't even remember what the original post was on this little "chat". By the looks of it, we hijacked this thread really well :P
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longestboat
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

Post by longestboat »

I am an EASA B1 (airframe engines) AME who is about to emigrate to your country, after reading this thread I am slightly concerned. We are locating to Vancouver Island, I am sitting the TC tech exams in MAY 2010 M1 M2. I have twenty years on King Air 90 /200/300 Hawker 400`s (Beechjet) Learjet 35 /45 and a bit on Gulfstreams / Challenger etc.

What fate awaits me, its sounding pretty shite!

Before you say "foreign AME piss off" etc.....my Grandfather was Canadian. :prayer:

This thread makes me realise that aviation is the same the world over (at least the western half).

I will be coming over on May 17th to YVR for three weeks, any ideas which companies on the Island that I should approach?

I also have 10 years on turbine helicopters S76A/B/C/C+/ b222/b206(L)AS350/ 355 F and N and EC155.
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longjon
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

Post by longjon »

What part of the Island are you going to be living on?

Victoria has VIH (Van Isl Heli) but there is not a lot there for you. Most stuff there is 50 year old float planes and not really fun to work on after modern turbine equipment.

Vancouver Island has what we call the "sunshine tax" Its a nicer climate than the rest of Canada, mild winters etc so there fore if you live here we don't have to pay you much as a lot of other people are applying for the same position. c Toilet cleaner positions in the Gov't get university grad applications, just to live on the Island.

A lot of retired and semi retired folks go there, they have their pensions and don't really need to work but enter the workforce to keep busy.

Not really a great place to raise kids as when they enter the work force there's not much for them except the service industry.
Don't get me wrong, its beautiful but you may have to work in Vancouver and commute like a lot of others. There might be work in Vancouver, just go and make the rounds with your C.V.

Do try VIH as I heard they have or are getting a Challenger, up from a Hawker 125. But I doubt you'll get $25 an hr even with your experience.
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longestboat
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

Post by longestboat »

Longjon....thanks for your reply.

We are looking at Oak Bay or Langford near Victoria.........or is that too predicable for an English Immigrant ?

Do you know how long the commute from the Victoria area to YVR is?

$25 an hour is pooh....should be more like $40, but I get your "shine shine tax" thing.

I have a contact at Viking Air......what you think of that outfit ?

I have no exp on radial piston and to be honest prefer turbines, but if its the difference getting a job or not then..

To get back to the original thread, we have HR people in England that must come off the same production line as your retards.
They will hire any one with a ticket as cheap as poss like the guy with the fresh ticket just out of school they think can do the same job at the same quality level as the experienced AME.

Pilots are the same all over, probably worse in the UK as there are still a few Demi - God handle bar moustache types floating about....I once got asked to do something on a Royal flight S76 and was referred to as a "Grubber"......F%*& off mate.
As long as we wear overalls then we will always be considered inferior to those who wear the uniform / stripes etc.

AME`s and Pilots have to get on as we will always be working together, most of the problems lie in Engineering upper
management. It is these people (weirdly most are X shop floor Engineers, that were shit hands on so got put in the office)
that seem to be the ones with the down-looking attitude towards AMEs.

Thanks Again

John :smt040
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longjon
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

Post by longjon »

Oak Bay is more in the city while Langford is the burbs but both would be 30 or more commute to the Victoria airport. To work in Vancouver it would be al least 30 min to the ferry terminal, maybe 1 hr wait in line to board then 1hr 35 min sail and then say 1 hr driver to the Vancouver International. You would have to get a room in Richmond and go home weekends.
Langford is by Collwood and the Collwood crawl is now the Langford crawl. This is in reference to the traffic.

Deffinitly try Vancouver Island Helicopters, a very ertablished and good company. Viking would be ok also but probably doesn't pay enough to make a mortgage payment and live any decent lifestyle.

Does your spouce have a good job? Are you semi retired with a good pension? If you buy a house and expect your job as a AME to get you by and pay all the bills-- B.C. means bring cash- the good luck to you my friend.
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