Type IV fluid and Air Canada

[ettw]

Just curious what the policy is for AC regarding the use of type IV anti icing fluid? I'm sitting here in YOW waiting to head north and have watched every EMB of ACs leave 32 with IV on them but I have yet to see any other operator with it on.

METAR CYOW 081300Z 34011KT 12SM FEW010 OVC030 M10/M12 A2985 RMK
SF2SC6 SLP115=

Just asking a legit question. Flame away.

ETTW

[flyinhigh]

if there is some ice on the wings prior to going, alot of guys will do both just to save the hasle of the possiblity of going back.

Already there, loader up.

[Rockie]

Air Canada follows Transport Canada regulations regarding adhering contaminates and all the associated pre/post de-icing inspections as well as pre-takeoff contamination inspections and holdover times. In addition to that we have a requirement to visually confirm ourselves that both wings have been de-iced following single truck sprays by non-AC personel. All requirements are rigorously adhered to even if in some conditions they are excessive.

Our policy regarding anti-ice use is no different than anybody else,

Decision-Making Criteria for the Requirement for Anti-Icing
Fluid

The Captain will determine the need for anti-icing after de-icing,
based upon the following criteria:

1. The current and near-term forecast meteorological
environment, given the maximum taxi time anticipated;

2. When ground icing conditions exist or are imminent (such as
approaching precipitation) the Captain shall estimate the time
from completion of de-icing until take-off. Whenever the time
remaining until take-off exceeds the hold over time of Type I
fluid in the current or near-term forecast conditions, the aircraft
should be anti-iced;

3. In conditions of heavy snow, snow pellets, ice pellets, freezing
rain or hail, the aircraft shall be anti-iced; and

4. An overall assessment of the requirement for anti-icing, based
upon the weather, aircraft state, fuel temperature in the tanks,
ease of access to return to the de-icing facility and any other
factor judged relevant.

It could be the crews felt precipitation could occur before takeoff and covered their bets by using type IV as well. Or the ground guys went ahead and applied it with neither them or the crew giving it a lot of thought.

[rigpiggy]

My understanding, was from a memo to the tier 3 guys, if you take type1, you will also take t4

[onspeed]

.... this is how you use your 5 free minutes???

[yycflyguy]

I don't have my hold over charts in front of me but I believe Type I only has a 7 minute hold over at minus 10, type IV extends it to the 30 - 65 minute window.

[Rockie]

My understanding, was from a memo to the tier 3 guys, if you take type1, you will also take t4

I can't speak for any other company, but if there is no precipitation falling, ice fog or heavy rapid frost build up then removing what is currently adhering to your airplane is all that's required. Type IV is then only adding a further unnecessary layer of crap to your wing, not to mention the cost. But it's certainly possible some company's would go overboard and require type IV anytime they de-ice. Why? I don't know.

[Inverted2]

From my experience we get type 1 only for frost removal or removal of accumulated ice from previous flight. However, if there is falling precip, its automatically type 4 since the holdover time is so short for type 1.

I agree though, type 4 is often over used, all that thick goup on your wings definately doesn't help with lift...

[yycflyguy]

From my experience we get type 1 only for frost removal or removal of accumulated ice from previous flight. However, if there is falling precip, its automatically type 4 since the holdover time is so short for type 1.

I agree though, type 4 is often over used, all that thick goup on your wings definately doesn't help with lift...

Anti-ice/de-ice fluids are designed to shear off at speeds above 85kts.

[linecrew]

All your answers are valid except that the original poster included the current conditions at the tome and there's no precip ergo the holdover times for DE-ice fluid are not overly important. Ettw brings up the good question of why would you then need anti-ice for the relatively short taxi from Ottawa's de-icing facility to the nearest active if nothing will contaminate the wing.

METAR CYOW 081300Z 34011KT 12SM FEW010 OVC030 M10/M12 A2985 RMK
SF2SC6 SLP115=

If I was forced to guess, I'd say that it's an SOP thing where taking Type IV is a move on the side of caution.

As a side not, just a few short years ago many airports in Canada had an outright ban on anti-icing fluids due to the environmental impact and oprated without problems for years. The down side was you had a shorter window from de-ice to departure on heavy precip days before the holdover time expired and had to go back for a respray.

[HavaJava]

If I was forced to guess, I'd say that it's an SOP thing where taking Type IV is a move on the side of caution.

Not an Air Canada SOP...nor a CYOW SOP since I've been through there with only a "type one, wings and tail".

As a previous poster mentioned, it could very well have been that the pilots thought that precip was likely and opted for the type 4 to preclude a return to the de-icing pad. If the original poster had the TAF and not just the METAR perhaps it would explain things better.

[bush_rat]

Like HavaJava said, more than the Metar would tell the story.. I couldn't retrieve the historic TAF but the Metars give a much better picture.

CYOW 081300Z 34011KT 12SM FEW010 OVC030 M10/M12 A2985 RMK SF2SC6 SLP115
CYOW 081200Z 33009KT 3SM -SN OVC020 M10/M12 A2985 RMK SC8 SLP116
CYOW 081122Z 33011KT 2SM -SN OVC025 M10/ RMK SC8
CYOW 081100Z 32012KT 4SM -SN OVC025 M10/M12 A2985 RMK SC8 SLP115
CYOW 081000Z 32009KT 12SM -SN OVC018 M10/M13 A2985 RMK SC8 SLP116
CYOW 080935Z 31008KT 12SM -SN OVC018 M10/ RMK SC8
CYOW 080900Z 31006KT 15SM OVC019 M10/M13 A2986 RMK SC8 SLP119
CYOW 080826Z 33008KT 15SM SCT020 OVC032 M10/ RMK SC3SC5
CYOW 080800Z 35007KT 15SM -SN OVC020 M09/M13 A2987 RMK SC8 SLP122
CYOW 080700Z 01007KT 15SM -SN OVC020 M09/M12 A2987 RMK SC8 SLP122
CYOW 080600Z 35011KT 15SM -SN OVC020 M09/M12 A2986 RMK SC8 SLP121
CYOW 080500Z 01008KT 15SM -SN OVC019 M08/M11 A2988 RMK SC8 SLP126
CYOW 080400Z 33007KT 15SM -SN OVC020 M08/M10 A2988 RMK SC8 SLP125
CYOW 080300Z 26005KT 15SM -SN OVC020 M08/M10 A2989 RMK SC8 SLP131
CYOW 080200Z 29007KT 15SM -SN OVC022 M08/M10 A2989 RMK SC8 SLP131
CYOW 080100Z 30010KT 8SM -SN OVC022 M08/M10 A2990 RMK SC8 SLP132
CYOW 080000Z 28009KT 15SM -SN OVC020 M08/M10 A2991 RMK SC8 SLP136


And Inverted2 's comment "all that thick goup on your wings definately doesn't help with lift...", shows a definite lack of understanding of anti-iceing fluid. Time to hit the books.

[yycflyguy]

If I was forced to guess, I'd say that it's an SOP thing where taking Type IV is a move on the side of caution.

Not an Air Canada SOP...nor a CYOW SOP since I've been through there with only a "type one, wings and tail".

As a previous poster mentioned, it could very well have been that the pilots thought that precip was likely and opted for the type 4 to preclude a return to the de-icing pad. If the original poster had the TAF and not just the METAR perhaps it would explain things better.

Dude, you quoted me and those aren't my words... re-read my posts. It was Linecrew you should be quoting.

[loopa]

From my experience we get type 1 only for frost removal or removal of accumulated ice from previous flight. However, if there is falling precip, its automatically type 4 since the holdover time is so short for type 1.

I agree though, type 4 is often over used, all that thick goup on your wings definately doesn't help with lift...

Anti-ice/de-ice fluids are designed to shear off at speeds above 85kts.

I was under the impression that type 3 was designed for aircraft with a Vr of less than 80 and Type 4 with a Vr of above 100 ? Or something along those lines?

I was on a lufthansa flight and that de-ice fluid was stuck to the wing for a pretty long portion of the take off roll. Definitely above 85kts.

[Flying Low]

Doesn't have to be falling precip to require Type IV. There was quite a bit of snow just blowing around YOW today.

[Rockie]

I was under the impression that type 3 was designed for aircraft with a Vr of less than 80 and Type 4 with a Vr of above 100 ? Or something along those lines?

I was on a lufthansa flight and that de-ice fluid was stuck to the wing for a pretty long portion of the take off roll. Definitely above 85kts.

I wish I had a nickel for every time something in aviation didn't do what it was designed to do. Type IV sticks to large areas of the wing toward the aft section where relatively little of the lift is generated (thankfully), and is much worse on some airplanes than others. CRJ's I've heard are especially bad, maybe it has something to do with the lack of leading edge increasing the angle of attack. I don't know. In any event, if it is needed it is essential. But if it isn't needed then why spread that crap all over your wing? It is way more of a contaminate than a little bit of frost on the spoiler panels.

[Rotten Apple #1]

Adding contamination to a wing cannot possibly be a consideration in the decision to apply type IV. It is required, or it is not. If that was a consideration at all, there would be a performance decrement.

On a side note, I shared YUL's CDF 2 years ago with a certain Mexican air carrier aircraf that had obviously requested the full body type IV application. Wings, tail, fuselage. And it wasn't St. Paddy's Day.

[invertedattitude]

As I've been saying for years on these boards the amount of ignorance regarding de-icing and anti-icing fluids has yet to change.

Light snow is hardly cause for anti icing fluid especially at -10.

That being said the few comments that "just take it" is another statement which shows ignorance, one thing many forget us that Type IV unlike type I can be applied improperly and if it is layered on too thick and it is cold enough it will actually remain on the wing above Vr.

Keep in mind further and in addition to thus that your HOT should not be the only thing considered, if I had a nickel as they say for every time an ATP rated pilot told me they wanted Type IV for after departure in cloud I would have quite a few nickels.... Enough to buy a Tims anyway...


PS, blowing snow is not a reason to use Type IV

[JMACK]

As I've been saying for years on these boards the amount of ignorance regarding de-icing and anti-icing fluids has yet to change.

Light snow is hardly cause for anti icing fluid especially at -10.

That being said the few comments that "just take it" is another statement which shows ignorance, one thing many forget us that Type IV unlike type I can be applied improperly and if it is layered on too thick and it is cold enough it will actually remain on the wing above Vr. Not if Vr is above the shear speed it wont, tell me more you got my attention!

Keep in mind further and in addition to thus that your HOT should not be the only thing considered, if I had a nickel as they say for every time an ATP rated pilot told me they wanted Type IV for after departure in cloud I would have quite a few nickels.... Enough to buy a Tims anyway...


PS, blowing snow is not a reason to use Type IV

PS blowing snow is a very good reason to use Type 4 unless you are starting with a perfectly clean cold soaked airplane.......Yes??? Of course if you mean by cold enough out side the application range well then sure it may not shear but why is it being applied in the first place......OK enough edits.....Cheers Dude!

[xsbank]

Why is blowing snow any less of a risk than falling snow?

Do you get out of your aircraft and do a tactile check for contaminants 5 minutes before departure, or do you use anti-icing and the expertise of Ice-man with hold-over times to avoid this?

If any of you guys who operate in this weather are not certain of the procedures for operating a/c in icing conditions, particularly those of you who operate "hard" winged aircraft, I suggest that you take a day off and do some research before you kill yourselves and your ever-so-trusting passengers.

Edited to add: Type 3 fluid is for a/c that rotate at 60 knots; Type 4 is for 100 knots or more.

[whiteguy]

Like HavaJava said, more than the Metar would tell the story.. I couldn't retrieve the historic TAF but the Metars give a much better picture.

CYOW 081300Z 34011KT 12SM FEW010 OVC030 M10/M12 A2985 RMK SF2SC6 SLP115
CYOW 081200Z 33009KT 3SM -SN OVC020 M10/M12 A2985 RMK SC8 SLP116
CYOW 081122Z 33011KT 2SM -SN OVC025 M10/ RMK SC8
CYOW 081100Z 32012KT 4SM -SN OVC025 M10/M12 A2985 RMK SC8 SLP115
CYOW 081000Z 32009KT 12SM -SN OVC018 M10/M13 A2985 RMK SC8 SLP116
CYOW 080935Z 31008KT 12SM -SN OVC018 M10/ RMK SC8
CYOW 080900Z 31006KT 15SM OVC019 M10/M13 A2986 RMK SC8 SLP119
CYOW 080826Z 33008KT 15SM SCT020 OVC032 M10/ RMK SC3SC5
CYOW 080800Z 35007KT 15SM -SN OVC020 M09/M13 A2987 RMK SC8 SLP122
CYOW 080700Z 01007KT 15SM -SN OVC020 M09/M12 A2987 RMK SC8 SLP122
CYOW 080600Z 35011KT 15SM -SN OVC020 M09/M12 A2986 RMK SC8 SLP121
CYOW 080500Z 01008KT 15SM -SN OVC019 M08/M11 A2988 RMK SC8 SLP126
CYOW 080400Z 33007KT 15SM -SN OVC020 M08/M10 A2988 RMK SC8 SLP125
CYOW 080300Z 26005KT 15SM -SN OVC020 M08/M10 A2989 RMK SC8 SLP131
CYOW 080200Z 29007KT 15SM -SN OVC022 M08/M10 A2989 RMK SC8 SLP131
CYOW 080100Z 30010KT 8SM -SN OVC022 M08/M10 A2990 RMK SC8 SLP132
CYOW 080000Z 28009KT 15SM -SN OVC020 M08/M10 A2991 RMK SC8 SLP136


And Inverted2 's comment "all that thick goup on your wings definately doesn't help with lift...", shows a definite lack of understanding of anti-iceing fluid. Time to hit the books.

Nice to see the whole picture. As was posted in the original post it was not snowing at 1300Z but it had been snowing all day! Was probably snowing at 1255Z or even 1305Z thats why Type IV was being. End of discussion!!!

[Inverted2]

Like HavaJava said, more than the Metar would tell the story.. I couldn't retrieve the historic TAF but the Metars give a much better picture.

And Inverted2 's comment "all that thick goup on your wings definately doesn't help with lift...", shows a definite lack of understanding of anti-iceing fluid. Time to hit the books.

Time to hit the books? Thats such a mature response....If you actually fly a jet or any high performance aircraft, look at the wings after a flight where you used Type 4. You'd be surprised how much is still left on even after a long flight.
I'm not advocating not using it by any means, but I've watched it slide back on the wings while deadheading more than a few times

[whiteguy]

Time to hit the books? Thats such a mature response....If you actually fly a jet or any high performance aircraft, look at the wings after a flight where you used Type 4. You'd be surprised how much is still left on even after a long flight.
I'm not advocating not using it by any means, but I've watched it slide back on the wings while deadheading more than a few times

I've worked a B763 arrival in YYC from FRA that still had Type IV dripping off the wings.

[invertedattitude]

If snow is cold enough to "blow" which if im not mistaken means snow which is on the ground now being blown around by winds, unless the aircraft is already carrying moisture, it simply will not stick to a cold and dry airplane wing.

In fact, there have been many cases where airplanes have departed with no safety infraction during a snowfall as well! Sometimes it just doesn't adhere to the aircraft.. would one be faulted for spraying anyway? Of course not, you never should be... but just because snow is falling or even blowing it doesn't mean that it will for sure become a contaminant, that's all I'm driving at!

For what its worth during my ramp days, everyone always commented how Air Canada would often de-ice/anti-ice when every other operator was not... is there anything wrong with that? No, of course not, properly applied fluids on a sunny day will cause no harm to an airplane, other than the operators bottom line, it doesn't hurt to be safe... and the bottom line is I hope no pilot would have their employment threatened by de-icing under any circumstances... but perhaps in certain cases some discretion should be taken and thought put into it prior to spending thousands of unnessecary dollars, but that also being said perhaps there are certain standing SOP's at Air Canada that other airlines do not have.

Safe flying~!

[invertedattitude]

Time to hit the books? Thats such a mature response....If you actually fly a jet or any high performance aircraft, look at the wings after a flight where you used Type 4. You'd be surprised how much is still left on even after a long flight.
I'm not advocating not using it by any means, but I've watched it slide back on the wings while deadheading more than a few times

I've worked a B763 arrival in YYC from FRA that still had Type IV dripping off the wings.

What you're getting there is Type IV which has creeped into flap gaps and other holes and such and pooled... there is no fluid (at least not one which is supposed to touch airplanes!) which can stay on a wing during cruise flight at Mach .80 +