Shortest Time to Solo

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Cat Driver
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Re: Shortest Time to Solo

Post by Cat Driver »

And before that we did it in 30 hours, taught on taildraggers.

And I also taught a lot in that time frame. :mrgreen:

The cost for a PPL was $ 300.00 and the government gave us $150.00 back. :smt040
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Tango01
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Re: Shortest Time to Solo

Post by Tango01 »

Cat Driver wrote:And before that we did it in 30 hours, taught on taildraggers.

And I also taught a lot in that time frame. :mrgreen:

The cost for a PPL was $ 300.00 and the government gave us $150.00 back. :smt040

So you paid $150. What is that in today's money?
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Re: Shortest Time to Solo

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

iflyforpie wrote:Well, maybe good hands and feet are more than 10% of what makes a good pilot, but they are far from 100%. The pilot with the best hands and feet in the world can still wind up flying in bad weather, have systems failures, run out of fuel, or break regulations.


The solo is a confidence booster and a stepping stone into the wider world of flying. The student who soloed at 5 hours because they were born in a 180 flying along with dad may have good hands and feet, but how much other knowledge have they absorbed other than doing what dad told them to do.
Pie

My comment on the 10% was meant to indicate that on an average flight about 10% of what was demanded of the pilot was pure hands and feet skills. Obviously certain specific flights could demand a lot more, but I think the average is around 10 %. With respect to the kid with a 1000 hrs, I am ashamed to admit, but at the time he had more real world experience operating (and fixing) aircraft than I did.
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iflyforpie
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Re: Shortest Time to Solo

Post by iflyforpie »

I was pretty sure I was agreeing with you BPF.

Like good hands and feet aren't required during cruise but that is when decision making comes into play (should I stop for fuel or press on? I'm lost, how can I find myself again without a GPS? do I need a clearance for Class D airspace? etc).

The pilot spraying crops is probably requires 90% hands and feet, while the instructor on a 150NM cross country is probably at about 3%. :mrgreen:
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Shiny Side Up
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Re: Shortest Time to Solo

Post by Shiny Side Up »

Tango01 wrote:
Cat Driver wrote:And before that we did it in 30 hours, taught on taildraggers.

And I also taught a lot in that time frame. :mrgreen:

The cost for a PPL was $ 300.00 and the government gave us $150.00 back. :smt040

So you paid $150. What is that in today's money?
If I place the time correctly during the same period a loaf of bread sold for about a dime at the time as well. Today the same loaf of bread is about $3.00 which means that the rate of inflation since then is about 3000%. It comes to roughly the same if you price out other costs like vehicles (even airplanes, though it varies somewhat) gasoline or wages. To put it in layman's terms it means Cat Driver's licence cost about $9000.00 of today's money. For a 45 hour licence I usually quote $10,000 these days so take from that what you will. One has to wonder how much less tax we'd be owing today if our government hadn't given $4500 back to all those pilots, somedays it feels like Transport is trying to get it back out of us... That $150 wouldn't even cover the licencing fee today should you have saved it in a sock with the intent of getting a licence.
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Cat Driver
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Re: Shortest Time to Solo

Post by Cat Driver »

When I was getting my PPL I was driving a delivery truck and my pay was $35.00 a week.

The cost aside the fact still remains we did get the PPL in 30 hours flying tail wheel airplanes.

Before anyone jumps in with the old red herring about how we did not have all that radio work to contend with, we sure did as the Island Airport was very busy and was controlled by a tower.
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Re: Shortest Time to Solo

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Before anyone jumps in with the old red herring about how we did not have all that radio work to contend with, we sure did as the Island Airport was very busy and was controlled by a tower.
I'll agree there and say that learning radio work - while a hang up for some students, doesn't equal more training hours in airplane.

I'm not going to get into the bit about whether people can or can't be trained in 30 hours or 35 hours or 45 hours. As far as I'm concerned those numbers are mandated by bureaucrats not indicative of the actual time required to train a pilot to be a safe flyer. You already know my stance on the ammount of difference the aircraft's landing gear makes on the quality of the pilot.

On the cost comparrison though, I could earn about $1000 to $1500 a week with a similar type of job, the rate of increase still stands. :wink:
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Cat Driver
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Re: Shortest Time to Solo

Post by Cat Driver »

Of course the rate of increase still stands, I never suggested it did not.

We all have opinions and we form our opinions based on our experiences in life.

It is my own personal opinion that the flight instructors fifty some years ago were better teachers than today's flight instructors ...generally speaking. :mrgreen:
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Re: Shortest Time to Solo

Post by Invertago »

I don't think tail wheel is harder to learn when you're just starting, I was only 6 hours into my PPL when I was introduced to tail wheel. The trouble with tail wheel is when you have 100hrs trike and you make the switch and take all your habits with you. What can be really interesting is taking a guy with 2000hrs recent float time and 50 hours wheels from long ago and getting him to land on a runway again. (never done the reverse, but I assume it is similar or worse)

As for the 30 vs 45 hours difference. I think TC has invented a few more hoops to jump through that may not have existed back then. The first one I think of is the 5 hours instrument time required now. But just as a new C172 is a heaver plane then an original 50 year old one, it is the nature of things to grow bulkier over time. Away from the flying side, the paperwork side is significantly larger now.

Eventually the PPL will probably hit 50 hours because some desk jockey wants to add 5 hours parking practice, then the following year they'll come up with a new entry level 30 hour license that lets you only fly LSAs. Just the way it goes.
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Re: Shortest Time to Solo

Post by shitdisturber »

Cat Driver wrote:Before anyone jumps in with the old red herring about how we did not have all that radio work to contend with, we sure did as the Island Airport was very busy and was controlled by a tower.
I wasn't aware the Wright Flyer had an electrical system, let alone a radio. :mrgreen:
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Re: Shortest Time to Solo

Post by Dagwood »

Shiny Side Up wrote:
5. I could have sent him solo sooner, but there is such a thing as a curriculum and I made him complete it.
This brings up a point I always wonder about when it comes to people going solo fast. For those who claim such short times I'd be interested in flight by flight, hour by hour how the student did and the exercises covered.
Yeaah... I was wondering the same thing. Most students need at least 10 hours to be competent in the required exercises.
Tango01 wrote:How about these guys?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8y7DiNygXc
He probably needed to get his currency back :rolleyes:
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Re: Shortest Time to Solo

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

iflyforpie wrote:I was pretty sure I was agreeing with you BPF.

Like good hands and feet aren't required during cruise but that is when decision making comes into play (should I stop for fuel or press on? I'm lost, how can I find myself again without a GPS? do I need a clearance for Class D airspace? etc).

The pilot spraying crops is probably requires 90% hands and feet, while the instructor on a 150NM cross country is probably at about 3%. :mrgreen:
Sorry Pie you are wrong

Everybody knows the absolute irreducible minimum flight time no matter what the circumstances, a pilot must consume thinking about sex is 25 %. Therefore no pilot could ever use 90% of a flight on the hands and feet part of flying..... :smt040
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Re: Shortest Time to Solo

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

Cat Driver wrote:
It is my own personal opinion that the flight instructors fifty some years ago were better teachers than today's flight instructors ...generally speaking. :mrgreen:
I saw an interesting article put out by ATAC. As I recall the article said the average time from zero to PPL in 1955 was 45 hrs, or 50 % longer than the regulatory mins. Today the average is 68 hrs......or about 50 % longer than the regulator mins. It doesn't look like very much has changed........
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Cat Driver
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Re: Shortest Time to Solo

Post by Cat Driver »

Interesting statistics but we are still left with the fact that the average time to get a PPL in 1955 was 45 hours.

Today it is 68 hours or 23 hours longer.

Must be because the instructors are better today I guess.
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Re: Shortest Time to Solo

Post by Shiny Side Up »

Cat Driver wrote:Interesting statistics but we are still left with the fact that the average time to get a PPL in 1955 was 45 hours.

Today it is 68 hours or 23 hours longer.

Must be because the instructors are better today I guess.
So when the requirement was 30 hours the average was 45 hours and when the requirement is 45 hours the average is is 68 hours. Lets do some math. In Cat's day students were taking roughly .5 hours longer than the required time to get their licences. In the current day they are taking .5111 (repeating) hours longer than the hours required to get their licences. So yes Cat, mathmatically even instructors must be getting worse over the years accounting for a .0111 (repeating) reduction in instructional ability on average. There we are, the proof is in the numbers. Any of you out there instructing today now have a measurable number indicating how much worse you were than your predecessors.
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Cat Driver
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Re: Shortest Time to Solo

Post by Cat Driver »

Shiny side don't take it personally as I am just stirring the pot.

The truth is there have always been good and bad instructors, maybe because there are so many instructors today compared to fifty years ago there are more bad ones? :mrgreen:
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Re: Shortest Time to Solo

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I wonder if students are just not putting as much into it now as they did years ago? There is lots of talk about decreasing student performance in the public school system. 50 years ago, we didn't have x-box.

We're also dealing with each generation becoming more spoiled and expecting everything on a platter. Many flight students think flight training is just a matter of checking off the hours in their log book. Some of those students have gone on to be instructors. It will only get worse before it gets better I bet.
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Re: Shortest Time to Solo

Post by AMM »

Back in my day...
Image


:roll:
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Cat Driver
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Re: Shortest Time to Solo

Post by Cat Driver »

Good one AMM, for sure those old pilots are inferior to those real smart young ones.

But just for fun maybe you and I could compare our qualifications and backgrounds in flying just to see if there is a difference? :prayer:
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iflyforpie
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Re: Shortest Time to Solo

Post by iflyforpie »

I have my grandfather's logbook from 1967. I records that he completed his training in the required 35 hours, soloing at 13.

He was no natural. He was 40 at the time, really nervous, and didn't fly too much after getting his licence. My grandmother said he finally quit flying because of the fear of screwing up. I don't think todays instructors and students are much different than they were years ago.

I think the difference is in the risks we allow students (and instructors) to take and the requirements of the newer standards. When I can fly around with my CP (who also learned in 1967) and he points out to me all the wrecks still in the mountains, quoting the years the years of the crashes and the circumstances; I don't think pilots have gotten any more or less safe over the years.

If today's instructors are inferior, it is because of lack of exposure. Tail wheel is fun and not that hard, but the insurance and risk are too great except for those with a ton of cash. Same with float flying. Same with multi.
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