WHY do pilots land gear up?

[Hedley]

Now that the "next gear up" contest has been won (er, lost) ...

People here seem really excited when pilots land with the gear
up, but for some odd reason, nobody ever asks, "Why?"

I have a theory. Perhaps I am full of male bovine excrement,
but hear me out.

If we look at CAR 405.14:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/regse ... htm#405_14

it says:

Flight training ... shall be conducted in accordance with the applicable flight instructor guide

Note that it says "shall". Not should, or oughta, or mostly, but "shall".
That's not optional.

If we then look at FIG:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/gener ... actors.htm

(b) PRIMACY — Present new knowledge or skills correctly the first time. (Teach it right the first time.)

I might observe that hardly anyone in Canada learns to fly on a
retractable gear aircraft. Not many student pilots fly retractable
gear aircraft.

And that's a pity. Because for the first TWO HUNDRED HOURS of
a pilot's career, they are taught to land without selecting gear down

And not bothering to lower the gear is a lesson - reinforced for
the FIRST TWO HUNDRED HOURS of their flying - which sticks
with them. And then everyone is shocked and appalled when
they revert to their ab initio training, and don't lower the gear.

Primacy? Anyone? Anyone?

Around page three of the "next gear up landing" thread, I asked my
kid - whom I taught to fly - what his downwind check was, on ANY
type of aircraft.

Without referring to a checklist, he recited:

Gas
Brakes
Undercarriage down
Mixture
Pitch
Flaps
Harness

Quaint, I know. Very british. But still, you can see that I'm
trying to apply the learning factor of Primacy as best I can.

Suggestion: If anyone really wants to cure this "gear up"
problem, use the learning factor of Primacy and install phony
gear up/down selectors in ab initio aircraft, so that students
are trained to select gear up and gear down from the very
first flight.

One would hope that such a device would not be considered
a "major mod", but you never know. I would suggest rigging
up a siren that would go off - and would stay on for 10 minutes -
if a student landed without selecting gear down - I can think of
several inexpensive ways of implementing that. Similarly, you
would want to punish a student who forgot to raise the
gear after takeoff. Again, I have some ideas.

Anyways. It troubles me that I am apparently the ONLY person
in the entire world - with internet access, anyways - that this has
EVER occurred to, which I find troubling. Am I paddling with only
one oar? Am I running on seven cylinders? Am I playing with
only 47 cards? Do I have PK screws on the floor?

[G.N. Thompson]

I like your plan, Hedley, it just might work.

[Cat Driver]

Glad you are back Hedley.

I am not a fan of the multi page check lists that a lot of flying schools use but your correct about the value of a pilot learning to check the gear position before landing in every airplane they fly...and if taught from day one it will be burnt into the memory banks forever.

I don't have much hope that TC will require that thought process to be part of learning to fly though because " primacy " in their world results in " resisting change because of inertia " as in zero movement.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Sorry Hed I do not agree

There are lots of things we do not teach at the PPL but which are successfully acquired later in a pilots training. I firmly believe that a gear up landing is a symptom of a lack of pilot discipline. The failure of the FTU's is not to teach putting the gear switch up and then down from the beginning, rather it is a more fundamental failure to utilise practical checklists and teach a consistant repeated disciplined approach to ensure that the killer and/or expensive items are always accomplished at the right time.

[phillyfan]

Lets hope your kid never flys amphibs and puts the wheels down before landing on water because of what you taught him.

[Cougar]

Ahh...

Reminds me of a mechanic who, after watching the pilot in a Twin Otter select (and say aloud) "Gear Up!" from an imaginary open spot on the panel in front of him on EVERY climbout, said he finally couldn't stand it, and asked the guy "So... whatcha doin' there?"

The pilot puffed up and said he was doing that "so I keep myself current, for flying airplanes with retractable gear."

The mechanic (who had spent frigging half his life in the ass end of a twin otter) said,

"So.. how come you never put it down on final, then??"

And then the rodeo started....

[reality check]

One word: Standards

We're not training the best and the brightest anymore, any kid with some dosh from a year or two in the Patch can have a CPL. Schools will sell a license to anyone. Unfortunately the "anyones" go on to get jobs. It's not like it used to be, or at least the percentage of "anyones" is higher now.

Crank up the standards, train to a much higher level, bring back accountability, and we'll be getting somewhere.

[Cat Driver]

I am not a fan of the multi page check lists that a lot of flying schools use but your correct about the value of a pilot learning to check the gear position before landing in every airplane they fly...and if taught from day one it will be burnt into the memory banks forever

Philly there is a bullet proof check that will assure you can safely fly amphibious aircraft if you use the check every time in every airplane you fly and in the correct manner......read above the part....

learning to check the gear position before landing

My check is .

" Where am I landing and where is my gear ? "

I have been flying amphibious airplanes since 1954 and that check has worked for me...in fact it saved me landing with the gear in the wrong place twice.

[. ._]

That's while turning final, right?

[Doc]

One word: Standards

We're not training the best and the brightest anymore, any kid with some dosh from a year or two in the Patch can have a CPL. Schools will sell a license to anyone. Unfortunately the "anyones" go on to get jobs. It's not like it used to be, or at least the percentage of "anyones" is higher now.

Crank up the standards, train to a much higher level, bring back accountability, and we'll be getting somewhere.

But, is it "any kid with some dosh from a year or two in the Patch......"the ones who are forgetting the gear? Forget not the simple fact that schools like the great Seneca College shoots circuits with the gear left down? Who's the idiot (oops..like I care anymore) who came up with that idea? Five knots max cross wind??
Anybody actually know the background on these turkeys?

[Nark]

One of the greatest differences between US and Canada in the flight training realm, is that in order to obtain a Commercial cert, you need a minimum of 10 hours of complex time. This is exactly what what I believe Hedley is getting at.

Also, I teach my primary students the BBGuMpS check, even though Undercarriage and Props don't apply in our trusty steed I have them say it anyway; all have gone on to complex aircraft, thus the primacy fundamental is carried through.



Phillyfan,

Thanks for your insightful input. I'm sure Hedley jr will now fly safer with your advice having not known it beforehand.

Crank up the standards, train to a much higher level, bring back accountability, and we'll be getting somewhere.

We teach to the FAA standards (published often), as I'm sure CFI's do in Canada with TC's guidelines. Some students require 100 hours to get a certificate, some 45.

When I started this I had high hopes that my limited experience outside the flight instruction world would help, it certainly does. But.... However... Students who are paying $160/hour for me and the plane don't want to spend that extra few dollars learning how it's really done. Me as an employee (contractor) has to also look at my reputation and consider possible students. Unfortunately they'd rather just do the bare minimum and not listen to life experience when it effects their bottom line. (there are thankfully exceptions)


Cat,
I know exactly what you mean in regards to taking on "students." When I get 1/10th of your experience, I'll do something similar.

[Cat Driver]

That's while turning final, right?

Yes istp I always ask myself that turning final..and sometimes I turn final real close in.

I'm glad someone actually reads and remembers what I post.

[Lurch]

Welcome back Hedley

I have to side with BPF on this one

I don't think putting imaginary gear switches in fixed gear will resolve anything. Just look at the excuses poster put to defend these "victims". They were on the 13th hour of their day and their 16th landing, their wife just left them for the milkman and the dog left with the mailman. They didn't sleep the night before because there were newly weds in the room next door of the Norman Wells Ramada.

I have had one instances of a near gear up, a student in his own AP and we were doing IFR training. He got busy on the ILS and didn't make it to gear down. I caught it long before the landing and when we "Broke out" I asked him if we were landing, he said yes. I told him to check his gear and he went white. He had hundreds of hour in that plane and he couldn't believe what he had almost done.

I think the problem lies with training from day one, most instructors don't train the whys of the checklist. The students are trained as robots to do as the checklist says and not to think of the why. I have seen too many students that don't have a clue why they are going through the motions/actions they are. Instructors need to teach their students to think before they act.

I check my gear at least three times before I land, when I'm short final I always do a quick final check, a flow around the cockpit and confirm everything is where I want it.

I have also found pilots will put their gear handle down and forget to come back to it to confirm it has done what is supposed to do. I tend to teach them to leave their hand on the gear handle until they have confirmed 3 green.

P.S. I have seen one fixed gear airplane with a gear box, they put in three green LEDs, a switch, and ran it off a 9V battery. If anybody wants it I'm sure I can get it for you.

Lurch

[Lurch]

But, is it "any kid with some dosh from a year or two in the Patch......"the ones who are forgetting the gear? Forget not the simple fact that schools like the great Seneca College shoots circuits with the gear left down? Who's the idiot (oops..like I care anymore) who came up with that idea? Five knots max cross wind??
Anybody actually know the background on these turkeys?

I had this argument a few years ago with an owner and their retract, I eventually won.

Lurch

[flying4dollars]

I guess the term "Alpha Bravo Charlie is on final with the gear" might have to be resurrected. I hear the water bombers using that phrase all the time, and I've been told it was the standard final call, which has now more or less gone the way of the dodo for the rest of the flying world.

[Maynard]

I was taught this one: (as a variation to the originaly)

Gear down (Gas on)
Undercarriage down
Must put the gear down (Mixture)
Please put the gear down (Pitch)

[Meatservo]

I guess the term "Alpha Bravo Charlie is on final with the gear" might have to be resurrected. I hear the water bombers using that phrase all the time, and I've been told it was the standard final call, which has now more or less gone the way of the dodo for the rest of the flying world.

Sure. The reason you hear it from the waterbombers is probably because they're old fellas. You can hear it occasionally from other guys too, usually if it has round engines or Darts on it: "So-and-so's on final...three green." They were still doing it when I started working, I remember smart-alecs in floatplanes or fixed gear machines would wait for the controller or Flight Service guy to tell them to "check gear" so they could say "down and welded" or something. It was a small courtesy that we abandoned because someone at Transport discovered our rich cousins to the south weren't doing it, and probably because some lawyer told them to cut it out. I guess there was an infinitesimal chance if the controller didn't say it, then the guy landed gear up, he could sue the controller or something. That sounds like the States to me. Of course up here we must conform, or else they might stop visiting, so we don't do it any more.

[polar one]

Like some of the others I dont agree with your plan Hedley. While I am not involved in the primary instruction, I do have to deal with the end products. Part of the problem is inexperienced pilots go through the checklist without thinking, and items that are irrelevant simply instill this to a greater extent. Checklists should be relevant to the aircraft you are flying. No extras. If it does not have retractable undercarriage, then that should not be a checklist item. Instead instructors should be emphasizing that when one goes through a checklist, they actually check the item and think...I believe one of the major contributing factors is teaching irrelavent checklist items.
As far as GUMPS it is excellent. Seems from at least one of the posts above, that it too, has morphed, as they do. One "professional" flight school in Canada has the students doing a "gump" check prior to descending. goes something like this....undercarriage....to come...
which to me is a psychological disaster waiting to happen. Though gear up landings are the flavor of the month, it is much more than that. A new pilot will go through a check list...pumps off...and then when asked what the pressure dropped to when they turned the pumps off, will look at you like a deer in the headlights...just read the checklist and throw the switches...I cannot fathom, for the life of me, how a two crewed aircraft could ever land gear up unless it was due to a mechanical malfunction.

How about this instead. Teach students with a relevant checklist and impress on them to actually look at the guages etc. when they do a checklist item (not the touch it with your finger crap), and impress on them that checklists will change with aircraft types. The ones that some flight schools use have so many items that dont apply that it is easy for a student to not recognize their importance

And I am one of those old guys who still reads back...and three in the green....after I have looked to see that is the case.

[Cat Driver]

And I am one of those old guys who still reads back...and three in the green....after I have looked to see that is the case.

If I only had three green I would not be landing until I figured out what the problem was.

My first action would be to pull the fourth bulb and check it with one of the three that were working.

[Hedley]

Interesting comments - thanks, guys.

One underlying theme (as opposed to primacy) in many
of the responses seems to be "better checklists!".

I'm not sure how you actually make a better checklist -
I'm personally not a big fan of them - but in any event, if
we agree that many pilots don't actually do the checks -
they just call out what they EXPECT to see - I'm not
sure how even the perfect checklist can fix that problem.

Blatant heresy follows: I don't like checklists. If you
can't memorize your checks, or use a cockpit flow, you
have no business flying single-pilot, head down reading
a checklist, neglecting your lookout as you approach a
busy airport.

The 70x guys here - who likely only fly one type - will
probably regard me as a lunatic on this subject, but
FWIW I regularly fly a weird mix of 9 very different types
of aircraft and I don't spend much time with my head
down when I'm flying.

[Lurch]

Blatant heresy follows: I don't like checklists. If you
can't memorize your checks, or use a cockpit flow, you
have no business flying single-pilot, head down reading
a checklist, neglecting your lookout as you approach a
busy airport.

The 70x guys here - who likely only fly one type - will
probably regard me as a lunatic on this subject, but
FWIW I regularly fly a weird mix of 9 very different types
of aircraft and I don't spend much time with my head
down when I'm flying.

I was taught from day one to not use a checklist while airborne, Single Pilot, Just run a cockpit flow. To this day I don't think I have ever used a checklist while flying single pilot.

Lurch

[Big Pistons Forever]

This is what I expect at the PPL level ( I only use my own checklist, never a POS FTU one)

Before Start = Do list
After Start = flow
Taxi= flow then checklist
Before Takeoff = Do list
Line up (and takeoff roll good engine check) = flow
Cruise = do list
Descent and Approach = Do list
Before Landing = flow
After Landing = Flow then checklist
Shut Down = Do list

This philosphy will develop the good habits which will serve the student well in everything from a C 150 to a large ME aircraft. This IMO is thr true foundation of Primacy. Teaching the right habits from the beginning

[Pugster]

Hed - good to see you back. Don't always agree with what you say - but glad you're back to say it .

The best "philosophy" I've encountered yet is Boeings (at least on the one I fly). That is - all normal checklists are flows first, then verification with the checklist. I think this would work quite well single pilot - because if the workload gets silly, at least the flow is done...

[Cougar]

That is - all normal checklists are flows first, then verification with the checklist.

Ditto...

We fly low-level with 5 conversations going at once, and this works for us.

[Hornblower]

Hedley, I don’t think you’re the only person to think of the fake gear switch. Years ago, I saw an ex-military Musketeer (back when they did their own basic training) that still had the fake gear switch in it.

But it’s an interesting approach to solving an all-too-common problem, especially since, despite Doc’s best intentions I’m sure, name calling is not working.